Raven Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The riots began on Saturday evening, and last night was the third night of violence and disorder. It has been said that 16,000 Police officers have been drafted into London in total to deal with the fourth evening/night of violence and destruction. That's more than double the number of officers there were last night. They began, presumably, because of the killing of Mark Duggan by a firearms officer on Thursday just gone. There were protests over this which then evolved into riots and looting on Saturday. Recent news says that there is not any evidence that Duggan opened fire at police, making his death unjustifiable. My opinion is, it's a bloody disgrace. Buildings, shops, small businesses and people's homes have been set ablaze. And it's only after the fourth night that the police numbers are swelling up to try to deal with the situation. I'll start with this for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I was actually wondering about how you were. Are you still with your gf in Poland (IIRC?) or are you back in Britain somewheres? If you don't mind sharing. That being said, I have no central conclusion regarding this, and if you match up the following statements against each other you may well find contradictions. Still, here is my take upon what you said. So the death of the man that sparked the riots was unjustifiable, meaning that police action generally came to the "brink" and sparked something horrifically violent. However, that does not somehow make the police magically responsible for the rioting that occurred, even if they took too long to organize in response. This still shows primarily the tremendous power that chaos has against order when order is not sufficiently organized (actually a false construct IMO but you get the idea in the practical realm). What would come out of this, hopefully, is mutual respect. New cops who aren't "brainwashed" into old ways of thinking. Who realise that the old system of policing was partially at fault for the atrocity that the system is currently trying to deal with. What it seems to come down to is that police are not sufficiently organized to stop sudden, spontaneous violence on a large scale as the result of complacency. However, if they were NOT complacent, they would be enforcing rules that people tend to complain about when they are enforced against them (which is only fair - when a rule is enforced against YOU, and you feel it is being enforced unfairly, all you can do is either complain for help or hire a lawyer, unless you're not feeling particularly complacent and decide to break a few more rules.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Good to hear that you're okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Good to hear that you're okay. I was about to be annoyed with you posting like that in serious, and then I realized it was my assumption that this was a serious discussion post! Stupid clicking from the "main menu" of SF instead of going into the subforums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I was about to be annoyed with you posting like that in serious, and then I realized it was my assumption that this was a serious discussion post! Stupid clicking from the "main menu" of SF instead of going into the subforums. I have very little connection to London itself, so I'm not sure what to say about it. I have seen Raven around, and it would royally suck if he'd been injured in the riots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) I was actually wondering about how you were. Are you still with your gf in Poland (IIRC?) or are you back in Britain somewheres? If you don't mind sharing. That being said, I have no central conclusion regarding this, and if you match up the following statements against each other you may well find contradictions. Still, here is my take upon what you said. So the death of the man that sparked the riots was unjustifiable, meaning that police action generally came to the "brink" and sparked something horrifically violent. However, that does not somehow make the police magically responsible for the rioting that occurred, even if they took too long to organize in response. This still shows primarily the tremendous power that chaos has against order when order is not sufficiently organized (actually a false construct IMO but you get the idea in the practical realm). What would come out of this, hopefully, is mutual respect. New cops who aren't "brainwashed" into old ways of thinking. Who realise that the old system of policing was partially at fault for the atrocity that the system is currently trying to deal with. What it seems to come down to is that police are not sufficiently organized to stop sudden, spontaneous violence on a large scale as the result of complacency. However, if they were NOT complacent, they would be enforcing rules that people tend to complain about when they are enforced against them (which is only fair - when a rule is enforced against YOU, and you feel it is being enforced unfairly, all you can do is either complain for help or hire a lawyer, unless you're not feeling particularly complacent and decide to break a few more rules.) Aha, thanks. I am still in Poland, until the 26th of this month to be exact. Landing at London's Heathrow from Warsaw, then training it from there to Cardiff, then to my hometown of Maesteg. About 6 hours traveling in total. I agree it doesn't make the police responsible for starting these riots. I personally support the police in this rioting matter. It is the fault of the government that the police were not pooled sooner. The rioters, in general, are blaming the government for their own rioting and looting. They wear their £100 sneakers and use their £300 Blackberry phones to organise the lootings and they claim they are in poverty thanks to the government. I'm no fan of the current UK government or the Prime Minister, but these looters and rioters are ungrateful cunts who do not know their right from left (literally. Have a listen to the girls talking here. Something like "Conservatives' fault, whoever they are".) Edited August 9, 2011 by V-Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethfc Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Every version I've heard of Duggan's death seems to conflict with another. Some versions he had a gun planted on him and the police shot their car stereo, others say he shot first. I don't know how he died but what is clear is that for a lot of people it doesn't have anything to do with him. These people in particular. I don't think the riots will last that much longer given the intelligene shown by the rioters who have shown themselves incapable of taking a TV off the wall in Ladbrokes or looting Currys whilst still wearing their Curry's uniform to allow easy identification,especially if they enlist him to help. What does worry me is the authoritarian shift that this will bring about. Edit: Damn Raven beat me to posting the half wit girls. I also found this, it shows where the riots have been happening. http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7&msa=0&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691 Still got a decent way to go before it reaches me. Edited August 9, 2011 by Mikethfc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 They're all idiots. They're angry at the police for shooting someone who they claim they believed was firing at them, so they go out and burn down innocent people's businesses and homes. Grade A stupid right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) I have very little connection to London itself, so I'm not sure what to say about it. I have seen Raven around, and it would royally suck if he'd been injured in the riots. I absolutely agree it would suck, but I have to say that I don't privelege Raven overmuch simply for being a member of SF. It would certainly make MY life less interesting not to have him around. But many of the human lives lost in riots are likely to have similar repercussions for other human beings around the globe, what with us all as interconnected as we are. Aha, thanks. I am still in Poland, until the 26th of this month to be exact. Landing at London's Heathrow from Warsaw, then training it from there to Cardiff, then to my hometown of Maesteg. About 6 hours traveling in total. I agree it doesn't make the police responsible for starting these riots. I personally support the police in this rioting matter. It is the fault of the government that the police were not pooled sooner. The rioters, in general, are blaming the government for their own rioting and looting. They wear their £100 sneakers and use their £300 Blackberry phones to organise the lootings and they claim they are in poverty thanks to the government. I'm no fan of the current UK government or the Prime Minister, but these looters and rioters are ungrateful cunts who do not know their right from left (literally. Have a listen to the girls talking here. Something like "Conservatives' fault, whoever they are".) Hmm. Is it really the fault of the government, as opposed to the police, that the police weren't pooled? Whatever though... As someone who barely knows his own left from right, given how close the party lines have drawn in our my own country, I have only sympathy and sadness that the looters and rioters are in such a state of confusion that they don't know who to effectively blame for their misfortune. Blame is a hard thing to place usefully, I have always offered my own head but, in a material realm, it simply isn't credible to most people that a 22 year old might be the one at fault. They're all idiots.They're angry at the police for shooting someone who they claim they believed was firing at them, so they go out and burn down innocent people's businesses and homes. Grade A stupid right there. I disagree on one level. Some of them might be smart people who don't know how to speak loudly enough to bring any calm to the storm and go along with it just to keep themselves alive. Cowardly? Maybe. Sensible? Quite... I try not to go along with the herd I'm a part of, intellectually, on such things. That might get me killed someday. Still got a decent way to go before it reaches me. You got volcano insurance mang? Edited August 9, 2011 by Loki Laufeyjarson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethfc Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) As someone who barely knows his own left from right, given how close the party lines have drawn in our my own country, I have only sympathy and sadness that the looters and rioters are in such a state of confusion that they don't know who to effectively blame for their misfortune. Blame is a hard thing to place usefully, I have always offered my own head but, in a material realm, it simply isn't credible to most people that a 22 year old might be the one at fault. That interview makes it clear it isn't about who's to blame they're doing it otherwise they wouldn't be hoping for it to kick off again tonight I disagree on one level. Some of them might be smart people who don't know how to speak loudly enough to bring any calm to the storm and go along with it just to keep themselves alive. Cowardly? Maybe. Sensible? Quite... It would be safer still to stay at home, the brunt of the damage was to shops and cars. Few, if any homes have been attacked to my knowledge. Also as far as deaths go I've only heard of Mark Duggan, a lot of people have been wounded or arrested but no deaths as far as I'm aware. Edited August 9, 2011 by Mikethfc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Hmm. Is it really the fault of the government, as opposed to the police, that the police weren't pooled? Whatever though... As someone who barely knows his own left from right, given how close the party lines have drawn in our my own country, I have only sympathy and sadness that the looters and rioters are in such a state of confusion that they don't know who to effectively blame for their misfortune. Blame is a hard thing to place usefully, I have always offered my own head but, in a material realm, it simply isn't credible to most people that a 22 year old might be the one at fault. It's only today that Cameron has announced that the police would be pooled. He was on holiday when all this began, had to come home early. As for the rioters and looters, they are selfish individuals with no respect for the law and their own communities. They think they can get away with their crimes purely because all their friends and maybe family members are doing it. And they were getting away with it, mostly. Tonight things may be quiet due to the 16k officers throughout London, but they won't be able to stay there forever. When the police numbers thin out again, these scum will come from the woodworks and do as they have been doing. Glad things have kept out of Wales. We're too busy spooning sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Rey León Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 It's a bunch of thugs looking for an excuse for thuggery. Seriously. Watch this and try not to be disgusted with humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) It's a bunch of thugs looking for an excuse for thuggery. Seriously. Watch this and try not to be disgusted with humanity. I have to say, all I see is the group treating an individual like shit. It's pretty typical of humans. It's pretty typical of things besides humans. I would say that helping other humans remains the #1 goal. At least they helped him up instead of just robbing him blind, mirite? Edited August 9, 2011 by Loki Laufeyjarson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 I have to say, all I see is the group treating an individual like shit. It's pretty typical of humans. It's pretty typical of things besides humans. I would say that helping other humans remains the #1 goal. At least they helped him up instead of just robbing him blind, mirite? Like fucking vultures, I'd say. The initial guy helping didn't think to take things from him, but that guy in the black coat came along and took advantage of the situation and robbed him. What a cunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical CC Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Anyway, how come a guy's unjustifiable death is unacceptable while looting, burning and destroying non-related people's homes and shops is acceptable? These...vultures are even worser than what the hell they are trying to blame on. They are lucky that they are rioting in Britain. If they were in China, their fates are already sealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 The capacity to join a mob and engage in looting and rioting exists within all people. When people are deinviduated, they can do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightBow Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) I fear that is probably true. There were quite a few times where I had a negative opinion on certain people while they were in a group. But when I talked to them alone they seemed to be entirely different people. Effects like these really scare me. People simply forgetting about their responsibility as individuals and embracing their rage and frustration. We should be smarter then that. Edited August 10, 2011 by BrightBow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I fear that is probably true. There were quite a few times where I had a negative opinion on certain people while they were in a group. But when I talked to them alone they seemed to be entirely different people. Effects like these really scare me. People simply forgetting about their responsibility as individuals and embracing their rage and frustration. We should be smarter then that. If you read the whole thing, you see that deindividuation can have a positive side as well. The recent uprisings in the middle east are a great example of how coming together as a collective and forgoing individual responsibilities can make good things happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 "Good things happen." "Bad things happen." HMMMMMMMM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) Anyway, how come a guy's unjustifiable death is unacceptable while looting, burning and destroying non-related people's homes and shops is acceptable? The overvaluation of human life? Note the ? These...vultures are even worser than what the hell they are trying to blame on. They are lucky that they are rioting in Britain. If they were in China, their fates are already sealed. Hardly...ya, the Chinese government has historically been hard on rioters, but the individual rioters in question MIGHT manage to make it to the US and seek asylum, I suppose. (That's why we're here buddies! Give us your tired, your whatever, your you get the idea!) The Truth: You are are prone to losing your individuality and becoming absorbed into a hivemind under the right conditions.I would actually disagree with this and argue that there is no such thing as a hive mind, or that people are always contained within the hivemind, Anouleth. I do not particularly care to argue that, however. Frankly I think the article on topic, I think the conclusions regarding specific cases somewhat disagreeable to my rationality (and also my inner view of humanity, or what you might call my irrationality) at times, but I cannot argue against the usage of Occam's Razor against me if I attempt to make the arguments, so I will not bother since I know so many are fans of it.it often ends in actual justice OH? By what definition of justice? Give some examples. This is a nice piece of viral advertising for the hive mind, this article. "Good things happen." "Bad things happen." HMMMMMMMM So are you trying to establish a causal link or not? Edited August 10, 2011 by Loki Laufeyjarson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral "Bull" Halsey Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) I feel ashamed right now to be human. If this is how people act in their daily lives, then I'd rather die than put up with this absurdity. Ok maybe I've exaggerated to far, but seriously...? It's a bunch of thugs looking for an excuse for thuggery. Seriously. Watch this and try not to be disgusted with humanity. Edited August 11, 2011 by Namie Amuro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I dunno. Stuff like this happens all of the time so I don't see the big deal. Shit happens and people sometimes react in such a manner. It will happen again and we will be surprised and outraged by such acts once again. >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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