Growths vs Bases

[Byte2222]

I enjoy babying stuff. Nothing beats the feeling that a unit has untapped potential, and it's your care that brings the most out of it.

Besides, high base low growth characters are too consistent, high growths leaves a lot of room for different end stats for each playthrough which is always enjoyable.

I agree with this guy. I enjoy my delayed gratification and knowing that not only is a unit going to get better but that all the work and experience I'm pouring into them is going to be worth it. This is why I dislike Jeigen archetypes; any resources they receive (particularly exp) are effectively wasted and they will only get worse with time.

I think, as well, that our bashing of growth units can't be helped by using efficiency as a metric (but I admit I don't have any better ideas) where bases are just more important. Or maybe we're just impatient.

[Othin]

I agree with this guy. I enjoy my delayed gratification and knowing that not only is a unit going to get better but that all the work and experience I'm pouring into them is going to be worth it. This is why I dislike Jeigen archetypes; any resources they receive (particularly exp) are effectively wasted and they will only get worse with time.

I think, as well, that our bashing of growth units can't be helped by using efficiency as a metric (but I admit I don't have any better ideas) where bases are just more important. Or maybe we're just impatient.

It's unwise to make assumptions. In FE9, Titania actually has equal or better growths than Oscar in every single stat. He's better if he ever catches up in level, but that wouldn't normally happen anyway. In FE10, Oscar has slightly higher growths, but even when they're both at 20/20, Titania is better overall, losing by just a couple points in HP and Luck and half a point in Def in exchange for winning in every other stat.

There's nothing wrong with liking delayed gratification and using who you want to use, but be aware of the underlying facts, which aren't always what you expect them to be.

[Rewjeo]

Then there's Seth in FE8 who has one of the best growth sets in the game. Off the top of my head, the only unit whose growths are better than his is Myrrh.

[Lord Raven]

It's unwise to make assumptions. In FE9, Titania actually has equal or better growths than Oscar in every single stat. He's better if he ever catches up in level, but that wouldn't normally happen anyway. In FE10, Oscar has slightly higher growths, but even when they're both at 20/20, Titania is better overall, losing by just a couple points in HP and Luck and half a point in Def in exchange for winning in every other stat.

There's nothing wrong with liking delayed gratification and using who you want to use, but be aware of the underlying facts, which aren't always what you expect them to be.

And +45 Avoid, but the point still stands. Titania is almost integral to the first thirds of the game; Oscar is not integral to the last thirds where he's better.

[geozeldadude]

Then there's Seth in FE8 who has one of the best growth sets in the game. Off the top of my head, the only unit whose growths are better than his is Myrrh.

you're pretty close. since i'm a nerd i have compiled lists of growth totals, and seth is definitely up there although not the top 1 or 2. effectively he is, though, since i suppose you could argue that eirika/ephraim don't count since you have to use them, and tethys is support (and lyon isn't available for the main game). here are the top ones:

580 = Myrrh

(375 = Lyon)

355 = Tethys

350 = Eirika

345 = Ephraim

325 = Seth

320 = Tana

320 = Syrene

(320 = Orson)

(320 = Glen)

315 = L'Arachel

310 = Neimi

310 = Marisa

310 = Colm

[Ansem]

He's a prepromote though, most prepromotes have like 270 in growth. He's beating Colm and Niemi in totals.

[Othin]

And +45 Avoid, but the point still stands. Titania is almost integral to the first thirds of the game; Oscar is not integral to the last thirds where he's better.

I'm not talking about overall quality, just the false assumption that Jiegans (and other prepromotes) have poor growths and/or averages to make up for their bases.

And I wouldn't say Oscar is better for the last third of the game. For endgame levels of 20/20 for Titania and 20/15 for Oscar, Titania is still overall better statistically, although not by much. Oscar may still be better at the very end because of his supports, but I doubt he'd catch up until well into the last third.

He's a prepromote though, most prepromotes have like 270 in growth. He's beating Colm and Niemi in totals.

Again with the assumptions. Picking a random prepromote from the list, Innes has a growth total of 290, while Ross has a total of 270 - worse than Garcia in every stat except Res, which he wins by a pathetic 5. Looking at others, Dozla has 295, Duessel has 305, Syrene has 320.

And checking the rest of them, Amelia has a growth total of 270 as well, while Ewan has a growth total of 275. Meanwhile, the prepromotes with the lowest growth totals are Saleh with 250 and Rennac with 275. Innes in fact has the third lowest growth total of the prepromotes with 290.

So, where exactly are these mythical "growth units"? Sounds like they're just something out of the imagination of players with only the faintest grasp of the underlying mechanics of the games.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Othin

[Rewjeo]

you're pretty close. since i'm a nerd i have compiled lists of growth totals, and seth is definitely up there although not the top 1 or 2. effectively he is, though, since i suppose you could argue that eirika/ephraim don't count since you have to use them, and tethys is support (and lyon isn't available for the main game). here are the top ones:

580 = Myrrh

(375 = Lyon)

355 = Tethys

350 = Eirika

345 = Ephraim

325 = Seth

320 = Tana

320 = Syrene

(320 = Orson)

(320 = Glen)

315 = L'Arachel

310 = Neimi

310 = Marisa

310 = Colm

He may have a lower growth TOTAL than Eirika, but I'd certainly take his growths over hers. Too lazy to look at the others above him.

[Florete]

So, where exactly are these mythical "growth units"? Sounds like they're just something out of the imagination of players with only the faintest grasp of the underlying mechanics of the games.

It's any unit that starts weak and turns out good. Growth total doesn't mean much. It also isn't limited to Sacred Stones. Sounds like you're being pretty narrow-minded here.

[Anouleth]

Well, in earlier FEs such as FE6 and FE3 prepromotes usually had awful growth totals. However, recently it looks like IS have been moving away from than, with plenty of prepromotes with good growth totals in more recent FEs such as 9, 10, and 12.

[Darros]

FE10 was kind of weird with prepromotes with the three tiers and everything though. Because units like Zihark and Tormod are prepromotes... but they aren't at the same time.

[Byte2222]

It's unwise to make assumptions. In FE9, Titania actually has equal or better growths than Oscar in every single stat. He's better if he ever catches up in level, but that wouldn't normally happen anyway. In FE10, Oscar has slightly higher growths, but even when they're both at 20/20, Titania is better overall, losing by just a couple points in HP and Luck and half a point in Def in exchange for winning in every other stat.

There's nothing wrong with liking delayed gratification and using who you want to use, but be aware of the underlying facts, which aren't always what you expect them to be.

Sorry if I was unclear: I do believe that there is a "Oifey" archetype and I'd say that Jeigen, Arran (FE3/12) and Marcus (FE6) are the only units I know of who properly fit the archetype and who will finish the game worse than other units but correct me if I'm wrong. I have a different beef with so-called Oifey archetypes but that's about how much they grow for their actions in the earlygame not growths vs. bases so perhaps we shouldn't discuss it here.

[Othin]

Sorry if I was unclear: I do believe that there is a "Oifey" archetype and I'd say that Jeigen, Arran (FE3/12) and Marcus (FE6) are the only units I know of who properly fit the archetype and who will finish the game worse than other units but correct me if I'm wrong. I have a different beef with so-called Oifey archetypes but that's about how much they grow for their actions in the earlygame not growths vs. bases so perhaps we shouldn't discuss it here.

Ah, alright then.

If you're referring mainly to liking units to gain considerable Exp at any given time, that's definitely a view I can understand; it tends to not control how I play FE games much, but I've felt the same way about other RPGs.

[Alabaster]

I like units with nice growths. Just because, as some of you have already said, I enjoy raising them up. It's like a little challenge that the game offers XD

[Radiant Dragon]

Again with the assumptions. Picking a random prepromote from the list, Innes has a growth total of 290, while Ross has a total of 270 - worse than Garcia in every stat except Res, which he wins by a pathetic 5. Looking at others, Dozla has 295, Duessel has 305, Syrene has 320.

And checking the rest of them, Amelia has a growth total of 270 as well, while Ewan has a growth total of 275. Meanwhile, the prepromotes with the lowest growth totals are Saleh with 250 and Rennac with 275. Innes in fact has the third lowest growth total of the prepromotes with 290.

So, where exactly are these mythical "growth units"? Sounds like they're just something out of the imagination of players with only the faintest grasp of the underlying mechanics of the games.

To be fair, the Trainees have lower growth totals because they have 10 extra levels to grow.

[eclipse]

Depends on the game, the mode I'm playing, why I'm running through it, etc. In drafts, for example, I don't have time to baby a bunch of growth units.

[Othin]

To be fair, the Trainees have lower growth totals because they have 10 extra levels to grow.

Indeed, indeed.

Although I just looked at the average stats of Ross and Garcia as Warriors, and they don't look too different. Garcia has a big lead in HP, Ross has some more Spd and a lot more Luck... Overall, though, it's pretty even. Again, the reality isn't always what we'd intuitively assume it to be.

[Rewjeo]

Trainees should, if anything, have better growths. By having worse growths, they're just forcing you to give them more EXP to get the same unit.

[eclipse]

*is horribly confused*

You don't want to give them such good growths that they end up cap-ramming, because that makes no sense.

[Radiant Dragon]

Indeed, indeed.

Although I just looked at the average stats of Ross and Garcia as Warriors, and they don't look too different. Garcia has a big lead in HP, Ross has some more Spd and a lot more Luck... Overall, though, it's pretty even. Again, the reality isn't always what we'd intuitively assume it to be.

I never said or implied that the extra levels meant the Trainees would have better stats than other units. It really should, given the extra time and effort needed to train them, but it doesn't.

[Rewjeo]

*is horribly confused*

You don't want to give them such good growths that they end up cap-ramming, because that makes no sense.

It doesn't make sense to have them take extra work to not end up any better, either. Those ten extra levels should amount to more than extra time put in to not get anything more.

[eclipse]

Weapon ranks!

I'd say minor improvements, but nothing to humongous. Part of the trainee's draw is the fact that they can promote into whatever you need.

[Othin]

I never said or implied that the extra levels meant the Trainees would have better stats than other units. It really should, given the extra time and effort needed to train them, but it doesn't.

Just as I didn't say you did, just putting it out there since it's worth taking note of.

[Celice]

Trainees should, if anything, have better growths. By having worse growths, they're just forcing you to give them more EXP to get the same unit.

The babying is part of the requirement to have a class that allows you to choose a promotion. It's not in there for little reason at all :/

[Anouleth]

Weapon ranks!

I'd say minor improvements, but nothing to humongous. Part of the trainee's draw is the fact that they can promote into whatever you need.

But it's not like what you need varies drastically from playthrough to playthrough, or like you need to have a variety of classes. Ross being able to become a Berserker, for instance, is not particularly impressive when Garcia is fine as a Hero. Amelia being able to promote into General is not going to make her better than Forde.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with trainees as a concept. The idea of a unit that can become many different classes is a good one and probably quite entertaining. But that's no reason to have them start off absolutely terrible and require a ton of effort to train only to end up roughly equal to your other units. It's not like giving them above-average growths would break the game.