Mechanics that you want

[Thor Odinson]

But is it worth the time when they can be coming up with something better in mechanics?

Anyway, if it must be implemented I want a mode without it in it. I don't want another screen displaying useless info.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Momo]

By the time they're implementing small things like that in, they would be past the phase in which new ideas would effect (affect? this fucking language) the final game.

[Thor Odinson]

Then like I said, you go implement it yourself if you want it.

Dondon brings up a good point, in that IS might fuck it up anyway. That, and I don't want to look at a unit's growths and say, "hmm, this guy has 40% def growth, so imma expect him to get 2 def in 5 levels" because, well, that's its expected value, and then he doesn't give me any in 10,. It causes more rage than necessary.

[BwdYeti]

Do you do the coding for the game? I don't think you do. I will concede the point if Yeti can do it in 5 minutes, since he's actually reprogramming the entire engine atm on a different platform, and so he should have the most knowledge of it.

I dunno let's find out

EDIT

about 8 minutes

Left off HP because I just copy pasted the actual stats page, including that and making it prettier would make it take longer, but not particularly so

It also might be more difficult for IS given their platforms/if they do some crazy optimizations, but I doubt that

Even still I wouldn't want growths displayed on the status screen either *removes code*

Edited November 29, 2011 by BwdYeti

[Thor Odinson]

Gogogo good sir.

[dondon151]

I also don't really understand the "trap character" argument for making growth rates easily accessible. If anything, units with high bases and low growths are less trap characters than units with low bases and high growths. You can bet that casual players will be more tempted by high growths than they will be by high bases if both pieces of information are available.

[Momo]

Then like I said, you go implement it yourself if you want it.

Why don't you edit it out if you don't like it?

Dondon brings up a good point, in that IS might fuck it up anyway. That, and I don't want to look at a unit's growths and say, "hmm, this guy has 40% def growth, so imma expect him to get 2 def in 5 levels" because, well, that's its expected value, and then he doesn't give me any in 10,. It causes more rage than necessary.

This happens already with things like hitrates and crit.

[Thor Odinson]

Because it means more people will have to edit it out than add it in.

IDK about hitrates, man, 2RN system makes missing a lot harder, even on the shakier hitrates.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Momo]

Plenty of people didn't like reclassing, but I don't see anyone editing that out.

[Thor Odinson]

Maybe they should.

[Lord Glenn]

Plenty of people didn't like reclassing, but I don't see anyone editing that out.

You seem to be implying that more than two people have made meaningful edits to the DS games. Protip: No one has edited that out because most people tend to focus on the GBA games for romhacking. (Not to mention, most people probably have no idea where the relevant code/data is that handles all of that, let alone know how to remove it and still make the game work properly.)

Edited November 29, 2011 by Lord Glenn

[Momo]

You seem to be implying that more than two people have made meaningful edits to the DS games. Protip: No one has edited that out because most people tend to focus on the GBA games for romhacking. (Not to mention, most people probably have no idea where the relevant code/data is that handles all of that, let alone know how to remove it and still make the game work properly.)

So you're saying nobody hated the concept enough to take it upon themselves to take it out?

Also, you wouldn't need to take out reclassing, you could just take out the menu to reclass. Unless of course you're crazy and the idea of it being in the game data at all annoys you, in which case you should get some help, Mr Imaginary Person.

[Lord Glenn]

I don't really see what the point would be to take out one small portion of FE11/12 and do nothing else. If people were actively hacking FE11/12 to the extent that they do the GBA titles, I could see that being useful as a patch in the event that the hackers didn't want reclassing in their project. As it stands, Blazer and Arch are the only two that I'm aware of that have touched FE11 and neither one really did anything significant when they did. There is virtually no point to removing Reclass since you can fundamentally "remove" it by not using it, at least until people decide they want to use FE11/12 as the base for their project.

Also, by comparing Reclass with displayed growth rates, you're kind of comparing apples and oranges. Yes, you could entirely overlook the growth rate displays much in the same way that you could overlook the entire Reclass menu; however, think about the two as someone who isn't one of 3000+ members on a site dedicated to the series. With Reclass, a "regular" player sees a change in stats, weapons, and class. I would quite possibly doubt that the player would know that you could swap through specific classes to increase the likelihood of more stats being capped at the end of the game. They're more likely to do it to use different classes because they like them or because they're just trying different ones out. With displayed growth rates, the RNG poses a large problem overall. Yes, you can know ON AVERAGE how a unit will do, but the RNG inherently does not produce THE AVERAGE RESULT, which for a "regular" player would most likely be entirely frustrating as all hell. As an example, I've been attempting to farm a specific item in the Dreamcast game Grandia II. It requires getting the maximum number of treasure bells to show up and only one type of enemy can drop the item. Even with a skill that supposedly improves the drop rate of items (and, even with the maximum number of bells, it's possible not to get the item), I've only found two of the item. And this is despite running through the area over the span of at least 5 hours of in-game time. It's extremely frustrating to me, and I imagine that the RNG influencing the stat gains on level ups would be quite frustrating to one of us, let alone a "regular" player.

[General Banzai]

A casual player who sees a page of growths won't understand what they mean at first glance, won't be able to visualize what those growths will correspond to in rough stats, and quite frankly probably won't want to. A casual person is more apt to play FE than DnD because they don't want to wade through a mire of equations and percentages and 12-sided die. A video game can hide all that with an AI which works as the dungeon master and an RNG which can instantly decide percentages.

Meanwhile, if you're a hardcore FE gamer and want to look at growths, it takes a quick internet search to find them.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Because it means more people will have to edit it out than add it in.

IDK about hitrates, man, 2RN system makes missing a lot harder, even on the shakier hitrates.

Technically, it also stabilizes low hit rates in the same logic. True hit favors hitting more if the hit rate is ~49% or greater. WHY DID I SPEND SO MUCH TIME MAKING SUCH PRETTY GRAPHS AND EQUATIONS?!

[Rewjeo]

Think about this for a second. If hiding this information were such a bad idea, then other games wouldn't do it anymore in response to player feedback. A lot of casual players (i.e., those who don't frequent this website) don't play Fire Emblem in order to calculate expected stats and whatnot. Games don't withhold information from the player because they're misanthropic; they do it because it's more accessible. I think this point has been iterated enough times.

How is withholding information more accessible? The point may have been iterated, but I don't see how that is any proof. Does anyone care to explain how a page being there- a page that takes IS 8 minutes out of their whole year and a half spent on the game- makes it worse for anyone? How is that being there going to make the game less enjoyable? I doubt a casual player will look at that and have the game be less fun or start doing math. So what if the casual player thinks that they should use a unit with really high growths but poor base stats? They're still having fun. I'm still having fun. And as for the complaint about people who don't want it having to not look at it? That's just ridiculous. Do you know how much energy it takes to not look at it? None. All you have to do is not pay attention to it. That's not going out of your way, beyond tapping R one more time. I mean, I haven't used the support page in a GBA game for years. I don't care it's there. It does not hinder the way I play the game at all. This page would be the same way.

Fire Emblem is a game very heavily reliant on individual calculations. If you were to play a more traditional RPG like, I don't know, Super Mario RPG, the game doesn't tell you your expected damage when you use an attack, and it doesn't tell you the enemies' remaining HP, and it doesn't tell you how much damage you'll take if you don't block or half block. You're supposed to just get a feel for these things. In Fire Emblem, the permanent death mechanic means that the game can't just hide a bunch of numbers and expect the player to be satisfied with guessing when it might spontaneously result in the death of his favorite character.

First you say that other games don't show this information because it doesn't help, and it's the same with FE. Then you say other games hide information that FE shows because it is unimportant in those games but helpful in FE. Yes, knowing whether or not you will die is more important than growths, but knowing growths would help. Besides, plenty of people love Gaiden and it just sorta lets you "get a feel for these things."

Furthermore, let's say that IS were to implement a "growth rates" section of the status screen. I'm willing to bet that the format of choice, instead of listing growth rates in percentages, would instead just be a series of nondescript bars whose lengths approximately correlate to that of the growth rates. Perhaps that will be helpful; I don't know; but there's no way IS is going to outright tell you that Palla has a 5% base spd growth.

IS didn't do that with stats. Why do you suspect they would be unhelpful with growths? Also, assuming base growths and stats come back, I suspect IS would do the same thing they do with growths and show you their total growth. So IS would tell you Palla has a 25% SPD growth in this class and a 15% in that class, just like it would tell you she has 16 SPD in this class and 19 in the other.

[dondon151]

How is withholding information more accessible? The point may have been iterated, but I don't see how that is any proof. Does anyone care to explain how a page being there- a page that takes IS 8 minutes out of their whole year and a half spent on the game- makes it worse for anyone? How is that being there going to make the game less enjoyable? I doubt a casual player will look at that and have the game be less fun or start doing math. So what if the casual player thinks that they should use a unit with really high growths but poor base stats? They're still having fun. I'm still having fun.

I don't know, man. If I gave you a bunch of numbers, wouldn't you worry about what they meant? Especially since, I don't know, if the game is telling you something, don't you think that something is important? I don't think anyone playing this game for the first time goes "pffft, spd, atk, hit, who the fuck cares" and runs willy nilly into combat.

If Pokemon gave the player free access to view base stats, EVs, and IVs, those people who play the game casually will look at them and think, "what the fuck is this shit" instead of being happy that their Gyarados has high atk and decent spd and is wrecking enemy trainers' Pokemon just fine.

I don't honestly see how this concept is so hard to understand. It's one part making the interface cleaner, one part making the game appear less complex, and the end result is that it makes the game more appealing to players who don't want to spend hours learning it.

And as for the complaint about people who don't want it having to not look at it? That's just ridiculous. Do you know how much energy it takes to not look at it? None. All you have to do is not pay attention to it. That's not going out of your way, beyond tapping R one more time. I mean, I haven't used the support page in a GBA game for years. I don't care it's there. It does not hinder the way I play the game at all. This page would be the same way.

Easier said than done. If something is there, then someone will worry about it. Don't you have a sense of curiosity? Your recommendation of "oh, just ignore it" is even more ridiculous because the type of player who would benefit most from ignoring it is the type of player who wouldn't know what to ignore in the first place.

First you say that other games don't show this information because it doesn't help, and it's the same with FE. Then you say other games hide information that FE shows because it is unimportant in those games but helpful in FE. Yes, knowing whether or not you will die is more important than growths, but knowing growths would help. Besides, plenty of people love Gaiden and it just sorta lets you "get a feel for these things."

I am not contradicting myself at all; you are simply trying to misrepresent my argument in a manner that can be easily countered. I believe that's called a strawman. What information is important enough to warrant showing to the player differs from game to game and it is a design choice whether or not to include it.

IS didn't do that with stats. Why do you suspect they would be unhelpful with growths? Also, assuming base growths and stats come back, I suspect IS would do the same thing they do with growths and show you their total growth. So IS would tell you Palla has a 25% SPD growth in this class and a 15% in that class, just like it would tell you she has 16 SPD in this class and 19 in the other.

Don't be stupid. Hiding the actual parameters is a bad design choice for obvious reasons.

Here: let me get this concept through your strata of cranium into your pea-sized brain. Giving a casual player a numerical representation of growth potential is far less intuitive than a pictorial representation. Saying that Palla has a 60% str growth and a 30% spd growth will leave players plugging numbers; qualitatively displaying that Palla has a high str growth but a low spd growth will give players an instant idea of how she is expected to turn out.

Finally, the intention of Fire Emblem has never been to tell you exactly how characters will grow. That's exactly why they have the +0/+1 system of stat gains on leveling up in the first place. There are a plethora of other level up systems that can reduce variance, but Fire Emblem has stuck with this one for a good reason.

Edited November 29, 2011 by dondon151

[Rewjeo]

I don't know, man. If I gave you a bunch of numbers, wouldn't you worry about what they meant? Especially since, I don't know, if the game is telling you something, don't you think that something is important? I don't think anyone playing this game for the first time goes "pffft, spd, atk, hit, who the fuck cares" and runs willy nilly into combat.

If Pokemon gave the player free access to view base stats, EVs, and IVs, those people who play the game casually will look at them and think, "what the fuck is this shit" instead of being happy that their Gyarados has high atk and decent spd and is wrecking enemy trainers' Pokemon just fine.

Funny thing is, most games I play I ignore a lot of the information I'm given and am perfectly happy because whatever I'm using is working. So yeah I don't ignore the obvious stuff like "Oh, hey, I'll die if I do this," but I do ignore the stuff I don't care about.

I don't honestly see how this concept is so hard to understand. It's one part making the interface cleaner, one part making the game appear less complex, and the end result is that it makes the game more appealing to players who don't want to spend hours learning it.

I'm not asking for the interface to be cluttered. I'm asking for one more page to be added. Or do you object to the presence of the support page in the GBA games, which I doubt you pay much attention to? And I really doubt casual players obsess over what every number means. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what makes someone casual: NOT focusing on the numbers. If how I played FE when I first started (and how I still play other games) is anything to go by, people would look at it, if they ever found it, and say "Oh, cool, now let's go kill some bandits!"

Easier said than done. If something is there, then someone will worry about it. Don't you have a sense of curiosity? Your recommendation of "oh, just ignore it" is even more ridiculous because the type of player who would benefit most from ignoring it is the type of player who wouldn't know what to ignore in the first place.

Yeah, I have a sense of curiosity. But there's a difference between me seeing numbers in a video game and spending hours making calculations and being curious. Besides, the people I was directing that at were the people who might actually read this. The people who don't really care exactly what their units' growths are and have said that here. It's not hard for them to not read something they don't want to read. Also, what exactly would make someone benefit from ignoring it in the first place? Being new to the series? Playing casually? The way I see it, if they care enough to learn about it, then they're doing it because they want to. If they don't care enough to figure it out, they'll probably just proceed without understanding and not care. It's a video game. They'll do what they enjoy.

I am not contradicting myself at all; you are simply trying to misrepresent my argument in a manner that can be easily countered. I believe that's called a strawman. What information is important enough to warrant showing to the player differs from game to game and it is a design choice whether or not to include it.

I guess you missed the part where I said that they weren't contradictions because one thing is critical and the other is helpful. Anyways, the point was that if other games differ from FE then you cannot assume their reasons for not having certain information will apply to FE.

Don't be stupid. Hiding the actual parameters is a bad design choice for obvious reasons.

I don't think I ever suggested that...

Here: let me get this concept through your strata of cranium into your pea-sized brain.

Oh, I can insult other people, too! You're stupid. See! Sure it wasn't as eloquent, but it accomplishes just as much.

Giving a casual player a numerical representation of growth potential is far less intuitive than a pictorial representation. Saying that Palla has a 60% str growth and a 30% spd growth will leave players plugging numbers; qualitatively displaying that Palla has a high str growth but a low spd growth will give players an instant idea of how she is expected to turn out.

I'm not seeing this. Casual doesn't mean they can't count. Compare STR: **** SPD: ** to STR: 60 SPD: 30. Are we really expecting that a casual player cannot tell that in both cases STR>>SPD?

Finally, the intention of Fire Emblem has never been to tell you exactly how characters will grow. That's exactly why they have the +0/+1 system of stat gains on leveling up in the first place. There are a plethora of other level up systems that can reduce variance, but Fire Emblem has stuck with this one for a good reason.

I must be misunderstanding this part, because to me it sounds like you're saying I suggested we make Fire Emblem about how much different numbers increase and that we should make it like PoR's fixed mode. I never said anything about variance being reduced, just that it would be nice to know how my units will grow.

Edit: Okay, in an attempt to have this not turn into us shouting things at each other with the intent of never changing view points, shall we take a fresh look at it?

The idea: make a page where you can view growths.

Why I think it's a good idea: It's unobtrusive and I'd like to be able to see how my units are likely to grow.

Why others think it's bad: I'm sure someone will find a way in which I'm wrong here, but in that case can we be civil? Anyways, it will be obtrusive, will drive new players away, and some people won't use it(?).

Why I disagree with those: Obviously I doubt it would be very obtrusive. As I have done before, I'll compare it with the support page. To me, it's useless, but not obtrusive. My experience with casual gamers and games that I play 'casually' tells me that people who don't want to spend hours learning the game will simply ignore the numbers and move on with the game. Some people won't use it? Well I don't see how this is negative. If it has no (other) negative impacts, then it's not hurting or even really changing how these people would play the game.

Please do correct me if I'm misunderstanding or missing anything here.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Rewjeo

[grandjackal]

Funny thing is, most games I play I ignore a lot of the information I'm given and am perfectly happy because whatever I'm using is working. So yeah I don't ignore the obvious stuff like "Oh, hey, I'll die if I do this," but I do ignore the stuff I don't care about.

You play RPGs a lot? If so, would you ignore it if the game suddenly gave you the formula for damage output? Like for FF6's damage formula?

Yeah, I have a sense of curiosity. But there's a difference between me seeing numbers in a video game and spending hours making calculations and being curious. Besides, the people I was directing that at were the people who might actually read this. The people who don't really care exactly what their units' growths are and have said that here. It's not hard for them to not read something they don't want to read. Also, what exactly would make someone benefit from ignoring it in the first place? Being new to the series? Playing casually? The way I see it, if they care enough to learn about it, then they're doing it because they want to. If they don't care enough to figure it out, they'll probably just proceed without understanding and not care. It's a video game. They'll do what they enjoy.

If most of the information is luck based, then you're just asking for a screen filled with maybes. It won't amount to anything in the first place. You're basically just asking for the odds of the horses at the tracks.

I guess you missed the part where I said that they weren't contradictions because one thing is critical and the other is helpful. Anyways, the point was that if other games differ from FE then you cannot assume their reasons for not having certain information will apply to FE.

Yet you may note there's a reason it hasn't caught on with other games as well despite it being in other games for just as long. You saying other games are fucking up too?

I'm not seeing this. Casual doesn't mean they can't count. Compare STR: **** SPD: ** to STR: 60 SPD: 30. Are we really expecting that a casual player cannot tell that in both cases STR>>SPD?

Then this unit by luck (because that's what the system is based on, unless you really think FE's growths are static) gets more Spd than Str. Congratulations, now the player things that you, the designer, has lied to them! But then they get on a forum and talk about it, and everyone has completely conflicting reports on these things, and then they come to a conclusion.

It's a completely useless screen! All it's done is easier display information to people that would care about statistical growths. All none of us, because we know high base units give us what we want with little problems.

[Rewjeo]

You play RPGs a lot? If so, would you ignore it if the game suddenly gave you the formula for damage output? Like for FF6's damage formula?

Well, first off, it's not really RPGs, it's strategy games mostly, but that's really a minor point. Secondly, that's something critical to the gameplay and if I ignore how well I'll do in combat then I will probably lose. The things I tend to ignore are certainly things that could help me but that I don't really care enough about to bother learning. Take civilization. There are people who calculate tons of things. I see that putting a city there will give me horses and I don't really pay attention as to what space will maximize culture output or anything.

Basically, there are things in games that help you. Some affect you more and some take more time to figure out. More casual players will simply avoid learning all the inner workings of a game because, even though it would help them, they don't think they'll get enough out to justify the input. That's my understanding.

If most of the information is luck based, then you're just asking for a screen filled with maybes. It won't amount to anything in the first place. You're basically just asking for the odds of the horses at the tracks.

Except it's not purely random. 60%, 30%, whatever. It gives me an idea. Sorta like the combat screen's hit and crit values.

Yet you may note there's a reason it hasn't caught on with other games as well despite it being in other games for just as long. You saying other games are fucking up too?

To directly answer the question: yes, other games could do things to improve\. I don't think there's any perfect game out there. Would making more information readily available to players, even if not all players would make use of it, do this? If it doesn't have negative consequences, yes.

I would have to ask what this reason is. Does this reason apply to FE? Does this reason actually have anything to do with its affect on the games, or a lack of games having done it?

Then this unit by luck (because that's what the system is based on, unless you really think FE's growths are static) gets more Spd than Str. Congratulations, now the player things that you, the designer, has lied to them! But then they get on a forum and talk about it, and everyone has completely conflicting reports on these things, and then they come to a conclusion.

Because nothing ridiculous involving confused/"incorrect" casual players ever happens right now. Anyways, the game could make it obvious that these are just probabilities, like in the combat screen, and then people would understand that strange things can happen, just like they don't think that 1% crit is the developers ling to them.

It's a completely useless screen! All it's done is easier display information to people that would care about statistical growths. All none of us, because we know high base units give us what we want with little problems.

What if I want to try using new units instead of the same high base ones? What if someone likes using growth units? What if I have units on my team that are trainable but I want to know which one will fit what I want/need best? There are plenty of ways for it to be helpful, and with a whopping 8 minutes of coding to be done, no one has to go out very far out of their way because of it.

[grandjackal]

Well, first off, it's not really RPGs, it's strategy games mostly, but that's really a minor point. Secondly, that's something critical to the gameplay and if I ignore how well I'll do in combat then I will probably lose.

Well firstly then, it still applies. Secondly, you have just eaten your own argument. Because you don't need to actually know the formula itself to get through, or to enjoy it. Otherwise you'd never play any of these games of which you speak of.

The things I tend to ignore are certainly things that could help me but that I don't really care enough about to bother learning. Take civilization. There are people who calculate tons of things. I see that putting a city there will give me horses and I don't really pay attention as to what space will maximize culture output or anything.

So then why are you so curious that such data be available to you at all times.

Basically, there are things in games that help you. Some affect you more and some take more time to figure out. More casual players will simply avoid learning all the inner workings of a game because, even though it would help them, they don't think they'll get enough out to justify the input. That's my understanding.

Gambling doesn't help you though. The game gives you bases, that should be enough numbers.

Except it's not purely random. 60%, 30%, whatever. It gives me an idea. Sorta like the combat screen's hit and crit values.

Dice rolls are still dice rolls.

To directly answer the question: yes, other games could do things to improve\. I don't think there's any perfect game out there. Would making more information readily available to players, even if not all players would make use of it, do this? If it doesn't have negative consequences, yes.

Here's a negative, removing the sense of reward. Lets say you had a growth unit who started bad, but you could calculate the approximate average. The mystery of how that character would end up is gone, and you realize it's just a worse version of things you already have. You have basically asked to gamble, but to take away the fun part of gambling.

(I don't condone gambling, by the way. Keep your bases high, boys and girls)

I would have to ask what this reason is. Does this reason apply to FE? Does this reason actually have anything to do with its affect on the games, or a lack of games having done it?

Considering you're pointing it out as a flaw, I would imagine it would have to by your logic. I'm simply in the area of thinking you're just flat not realizing this is a useless idea. People don't bash Crash just because he's Crash. People bash Crash because he's usually filled with bad or wrong ideas. He's "Badong" as The Chosen One would put it.

I'm just saying that because I don't want you to think you have to continue this argument going nowhere just to defend Crash's honor.

Because nothing ridiculous involving confused/"incorrect" casual players ever happens right now.

Exactly, why make it worse by having them say "the game lied to me!" on top of it?

What if I want to try using new units instead of the same high base ones?

No one's stopping you, but if the game flat told you a sucky unit has the odds stacked against their future as well, would you even bother?

[Snowy_One]

I'm confused as to what the issue here even is... I mean, displayed growths is... completely useless.

Seriously. The people who are sitting down to play the game for the first time are either likely aware that lower level = higher growth rates, don't know squat about them, or are the type that would be on SF anyways plotting out every little detail to get high scores/ratings. So it's a worthless endeavor. Heck, I think it could actually be harmful as the RNG goddess could strike and screw a character making a person think that they're worthless or something.

Displayed growth rates only help a player looking for the statistical best team who isn't willing to go online. Given the choice between that and... ohhh... I don't know... a scene where the main lord eats some food with his A support, I would much rather prefer the latter be given coding time as it is actually worth something to a larger audience.

[CrashGordon94]

I also don't want to see growths ingame, as unless I'm doing specific calculations (and even then those are more of gameplay formula stuff), I like to just let my characters grow as they like. I don't want some strict probability pre-influencing my opinions on characters. I don't want to restrict which pages I end up on in the screen, either.

Nobody's making you look at the screen, SCROLL PAST IT! Seriously, what's so hard to understand about that? Why are you trying to make pressing right on the D-pad sound like some kind of gargantuan effort? If you want an option to turn it off, I'm okay with that! Though I must admit I don't see the need when you can just SCROLL PAST IT!

How is withholding information more accessible? The point may have been iterated, but I don't see how that is any proof. Does anyone care to explain how a page being there- a page that takes IS 8 minutes out of their whole year and a half spent on the game- makes it worse for anyone? How is that being there going to make the game less enjoyable? I doubt a casual player will look at that and have the game be less fun or start doing math. So what if the casual player thinks that they should use a unit with really high growths but poor base stats? They're still having fun. I'm still having fun. And as for the complaint about people who don't want it having to not look at it? That's just ridiculous. Do you know how much energy it takes to not look at it? None. All you have to do is not pay attention to it. That's not going out of your way, beyond tapping R one more time. I mean, I haven't used the support page in a GBA game for years. I don't care it's there. It does not hinder the way I play the game at all. This page would be the same way.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Seriously, anti-growth people, just drop it, if you got your way then the people who want it would have to go online, but if we got our way you wouldn't be hurt at all! SCROLL PAST THE SCREEN YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED IN! IT'S NOT HARD!

Edited November 29, 2011 by Kirby

[Anouleth]

Nobody's making you look at the screen, SCROLL PAST IT! Seriously, what's so hard to understand about that? Why are you trying to make pressing right on the D-pad sound like some kind of gargantuan effort? If you want an option to turn it off, I'm okay with that! Though I must admit I don't see the need when you can just SCROLL PAST IT!

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Seriously, anti-growth people, just drop it, if you got your way then the people who want it would have to go online, but if we got our way you wouldn't be hurt at all! SCROLL PAST THE SCREEN YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED IN! IT'S NOT HARD!

By that logic, FE9 could reveal who the Black Knight is in a Chapter 9 base conversation and it would be "alright" because GUYS YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK AT IT

Or for that matter, those lua scripts that show you the RN string could also be enshrined in the game. After all, you don't have to look at them if you don't want to! Why not tell the player where hidden items are? Sure, it completely defeats the point of hidden items in the first place, but if you want to have the enjoyment of exploring the game, then just don't ask!

Edited November 29, 2011 by Anouleth

[CrashGordon94]

So giving the player helpful statistical information = spoiling the story? How?