Mechanics that you want

[Dark Sage]

Yeah you need to understand that GameFAQs isn't where casual gamers go. I would actually say that hardcore Fire Emblem fans are the ones who play to that list of criteria, while the LTCs are a freak group of mutations; a minority hardly even worth mentioning.

I mean, I've played every FE in America at least 6 times, and as many as 20 for FE7. I've beaten every hard mode, unlocked everything there is to unlock, written 20-page essays on my opinions of the plots of the games, and yet according to the criterion above I'm more or less a "casual" player because I try to get every item and only deploy units I intend to use for combat purposes.

e-penis +1

And yeah, just keep the healer exp formula the same as in the DS games. People who take longer won't have much trouble leveling healers up and people who take a short amount of time can still level their healers at least somewhat effectively under the formula.

[Anouleth]

Yeah you need to understand that GameFAQs isn't where casual gamers go. I would actually say that hardcore Fire Emblem fans are the ones who play to that list of criteria, while the LTCs are a freak group of mutations; a minority hardly even worth mentioning.

I mean, I've played every FE in America at least 6 times, and as many as 20 for FE7. I've beaten every hard mode, unlocked everything there is to unlock, written 20-page essays on my opinions of the plots of the games, and yet according to the criterion above I'm more or less a "casual" player because I try to get every item and only deploy units I intend to use for combat purposes.

This, basically. It's easy to kind of "assume" that everyone plays the same way that we do, or did when we first played the game and frantically tried to keep everyone alive and hoover up all the items. But really, that's no more the typical style of play than Pokemon players who try to catch every pokemon.

[dondon151]

They both had added abilities besides just dance/refresh

Those abilities were almost entirely useless.

[Griffen78]

Those abilities were almost entirely useless.

eh I found them useful...mainly the heron ones.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Griffen78

[Anouleth]

The +def ring was good to cheese the arena. Plus I had fun putting it on Lucius and having him take on like 10 guys at once on enemy phase.

And obviously Filla's Might is gud for bosses.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Anouleth

[Griffen78]

The +def ring was good to cheese the arena. Plus I had fun putting it on Lucius and having him take on like 10 guys at once on enemy phase.

And obviously Filla's Might is gud for bosses.

picture those in wi-fi :D

[Lord Raven]

Those abilities were almost entirely useless.

the +atk one gets you a pretty reliable Athos 1-turn kill on the Dragon. Aside from that, more or less..

[LeaderR Elliot]

I see Physic giving 40 EXP per use, and Fortify giving a significantly more than that. Maybe jack the cost of Mend to compensate, or lower the cost of Heal? I never did get why a Heal staff was nearly triple the cost of a Fire tome in the DS games.

I KNOW THIS ONE!!!!!!!

It is for the purpouse of Wi-fi training units for Chp 14 limit. in FE12 is easy to cap all the physical stats (HP, STR, DEF) and there are plenty of classes that will help you with these. However the most "efficient way" to cap the special stats (MAG for Sword users, RES to everyone) is to reclass people to curate and staff spam, reclass people to sage and spam shaver in the arena (requires Hammerne on Shaver).

The game forces on the correct distribution of money until Chapter 9 (dividing the money between Heals and Base Arena) and considering the Final goal of curate levels is Cap that Res and Magic, it is like... 20-30 levels as a curate and Sage per Characters. So you in the end you will have A Staves on Everyone XD.

[CrashGordon94]

Thinking back on the branching classes thing, I had a rather crazy idea for an option:

Myrmidon -> Mage Fighter!

[BwdYeti]

I've thought of something similar in a branching system with masteries. One of the t2 sword classes would have its mastery be the ability to gain Anima up to a certain rank (B or A). They'd have unmatched versatility in damage output, being able to hit def or res, but they wouldn't have the combat, buff, or support abilities other classes would get from their masteries. I think it's a nice way to balance it.

[CrashGordon94]

Well, I'd prefer it as a full-on class option since the promotion could give the necessary Magic to be useful with magic.

[Othin]

Masteries are terrible anyway and should never be seen again.

[CrashGordon94]

They do seem controversial...

[BwdYeti]

Masteries are terrible anyway and should never be seen again.

*all the masteries being activation based is terrible

When most of them are buffs or command skills it works well.

[Othin]

*all the masteries being activation based is terrible

When most of them are buffs or command skills it works well.

In that case, they're more like just class skills (or class-specific skills) implemented in a limiting manner.

[Anouleth]

Masteries are terrible anyway and should never be seen again.

The concept is pretty good. A unique skill for each class on reaching third tier? Plus, masteries are really, really cool. But the execution was a little bit off. They ended up all feeling really similar. Masteries should be powerful, but there are more things they can do than just a % chance OHKO move. Like, the +1 range on Snipers was a great idea. Perhaps masteries could even be unit-specific rather than class specific. For example, maybe Ike could get a leadership ability that works like FE4 Charisma. And Rhys would get an ability that lets him use all staves at range.

And obviously, make the level for masteries on laguz a bit lower.

Which reminds me of something else I'd like to see: unit portraits that change when you reclass or promote.

[The_Purple_Knight]

The concept is pretty good. A unique skill for each class on reaching third tier? Plus, masteries are really, really cool. But the execution was a little bit off. They ended up all feeling really similar. Masteries should be powerful, but there are more things they can do than just a % chance OHKO move. Like, the +1 range on Snipers was a great idea. Perhaps masteries could even be unit-specific rather than class specific. For example, maybe Ike could get a leadership ability that works like FE4 Charisma. And Rhys would get an ability that lets him use all staves at

Now that is a cool idea , whispers could have gotten shade and pass after promotion or the hawks could have gained pavise. Some of the laguz skills would have made great master skills if they were modified a bit , glare and howl come to mind . Each class getting a unique ability would be cool .

[Othin]

The concept is pretty good. A unique skill for each class on reaching third tier? Plus, masteries are really, really cool. But the execution was a little bit off. They ended up all feeling really similar. Masteries should be powerful, but there are more things they can do than just a % chance OHKO move. Like, the +1 range on Snipers was a great idea. Perhaps masteries could even be unit-specific rather than class specific. For example, maybe Ike could get a leadership ability that works like FE4 Charisma. And Rhys would get an ability that lets him use all staves at range.

And obviously, make the level for masteries on laguz a bit lower.

Which reminds me of something else I'd like to see: unit portraits that change when you reclass or promote.

All that means is that we should see more relevant skills, including class skills. Making it so that every class has to get one right at third tier only serves to limit the system.

[Anouleth]

All that means is that we should see more relevant skills, including class skills. Making it so that every class has to get one right at third tier only serves to limit the system.

Not really. Giving the player the skills straight away for free seems a bit cheap and easy. Whereas getting the skill on promotion will make promotions feel even more awesome and cool. And for some skills, you'll want the player to play the game a little bit and get used to the basic mechanics before you throw in fancy skills.

It seems to me there are several options:

-Characters have their unique skill straight away without doing anything

-Characters get their unique skill at some arbitrary point during the game (whether because of storyline or because it comes out of a chest or whatever)

-Characters get their unique skill when they promote

And of the three, the best option seems to be the first. It gives the player an ironclad, predictable rule so that they don't have to try and guess when a character's skill will show up, they know it always happens on promotion.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Anouleth

[Othin]

Not really. Giving the player the skills straight away for free seems a bit cheap and easy. Whereas getting the skill on promotion will make promotions feel even more awesome and cool. And for some skills, you'll want the player to play the game a little bit and get used to the basic mechanics before you throw in fancy skills.

Indeed, there is a place for skills to be learned later. But that doesn't mean all such skills have to be learned at that point later. I'm not saying the system should be limited one way or the other. Yes, make some skills learned later, such as sometimes at Tier 3. But there's no reason to force everything to conform to that exact mold.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Not really. Giving the player the skills straight away for free seems a bit cheap and easy. Whereas getting the skill on promotion will make promotions feel even more awesome and cool. And for some skills, you'll want the player to play the game a little bit and get used to the basic mechanics before you throw in fancy skills.

Here's the issue I have with "always on promotion" when it comes to masteries. Let's take, for example, a unit like my man Wil (you know you saw this coming). Are we both in agreement that Wil isn't a very high rated unit for most people?

Wil's problem isn't when he's promoted -- it's when he's starting out. FE7 had a funny way of making archers have sucktastic bases (EP-heavy combat and super-powerful, light javelins didn't help out here either). Wil, as a 20/?? sniper, is actually pretty badass (or, at least in comparison to his former self); he has enough SPD to double ALMOST every generic in FE7, durability similar to Raven's (which, by FE7 standards, is quite solid), 50% STR growth, and easy access to silver/killer w/o AS loss, Longbow for Luna Druids, and Brave Bow for the very fastest enemies he can't double. However, most people just look at the effort to raise him and his bow lock and say "Fuck this guy!", something that can be easily understood given the nature of FE7.

My point, if it wasn't clear by now, is that some units might need mastery-like skills early on to make training them easier so they can reach their potential, especially growth units w/ bad bases or units like archers (and to a lesser extent, mages), who have inherent weaknesses that need to be worked around until they can come into their own. Having mastery skills on promotion is just going to encourage heavy use of prepromotes (provided any are given at the tier where masteries are handed out), which is something which should be dissuaded instead.

[bottlegnomes]

Here's the issue I have with "always on promotion" when it comes to masteries. Let's take, for example, a unit like my man Wil (you know you saw this coming). Are we both in agreement that Wil isn't a very high rated unit for most people?

Wil's problem isn't when he's promoted -- it's when he's starting out. FE7 had a funny way of making archers have sucktastic bases (EP-heavy combat and super-powerful, light javelins didn't help out here either). Wil, as a 20/?? sniper, is actually pretty badass (or, at least in comparison to his former self); he has enough SPD to double ALMOST every generic in FE7, durability similar to Raven's (which, by FE7 standards, is quite solid), 50% STR growth, and easy access to silver/killer w/o AS loss, Longbow for Luna Druids, and Brave Bow for the very fastest enemies he can't double. However, most people just look at the effort to raise him and his bow lock and say "Fuck this guy!", something that can be easily understood given the nature of FE7.

My point, if it wasn't clear by now, is that some units might need mastery-like skills early on to make training them easier so they can reach their potential, especially growth units w/ bad bases or units like archers (and to a lesser extent, mages), who have inherent weaknesses that need to be worked around until they can come into their own. Having mastery skills on promotion is just going to encourage heavy use of prepromotes (provided any are given at the tier where masteries are handed out), which is something which should be dissuaded instead.

That's an interesting idea and could work, but could also make characters way too strong later on.

As for the thing about prepromos vs growth units. I was thinking just give prepromos good enough stats and piss awful growths, think FE7 Marcus with FE1 Jeigan's growths, and giving growth units absurdly high growths, like Est level growths (the archetype, not the character). That way prepromotes wouldn't be unusable (if balanced correctly, they could still be quite good), but they wouldn't completely outclass growth units.

[Othin]

Here's the issue I have with "always on promotion" when it comes to masteries. Let's take, for example, a unit like my man Wil (you know you saw this coming). Are we both in agreement that Wil isn't a very high rated unit for most people?

Wil's problem isn't when he's promoted -- it's when he's starting out. FE7 had a funny way of making archers have sucktastic bases (EP-heavy combat and super-powerful, light javelins didn't help out here either). Wil, as a 20/?? sniper, is actually pretty badass (or, at least in comparison to his former self); he has enough SPD to double ALMOST every generic in FE7, durability similar to Raven's (which, by FE7 standards, is quite solid), 50% STR growth, and easy access to silver/killer w/o AS loss, Longbow for Luna Druids, and Brave Bow for the very fastest enemies he can't double. However, most people just look at the effort to raise him and his bow lock and say "Fuck this guy!", something that can be easily understood given the nature of FE7.

My point, if it wasn't clear by now, is that some units might need mastery-like skills early on to make training them easier so they can reach their potential, especially growth units w/ bad bases or units like archers (and to a lesser extent, mages), who have inherent weaknesses that need to be worked around until they can come into their own. Having mastery skills on promotion is just going to encourage heavy use of prepromotes (provided any are given at the tier where masteries are handed out), which is something which should be dissuaded instead.

Indeed: the later you get a skill, the less relevant it is.

However, with all of this in mind, I can't say I understand why you keep saying "mastery". We've dismissed the FE10 masteries because they were idiotic, and there's nothing else that would associate any particular content for such a skill, therefore all we're talking about is ordinary skills that aren't "mastery-like" any more than they are like any other sorts of skills. Presumably, most if not all of them are good, relevant skills, but that's just because we want this to matter.

That's an interesting idea and could work, but could also make characters way too strong later on.

As for the thing about prepromos vs growth units. I was thinking just give prepromos good enough stats and piss awful growths, think FE7 Marcus with FE1 Jeigan's growths, and giving growth units absurdly high growths, like Est level growths (the archetype, not the character). That way prepromotes wouldn't be unusable (if balanced correctly, they could still be quite good), but they wouldn't completely outclass growth units.

Like Kngt, you're assuming something about the skills we're discussing based on absolutely nothing. Many FE4/5 characters had personal skills from early in the game, which helped define them, and didn't necessarily make them too strong. Some of them did, and the pool of skills was rather limited, but there's no need to limit our considerations to that.

Another way to balance prepromotes is simply to give them less skills. Again, Berwick Saga makes for a good example. Ward is the game's Jagen and joins much higher leveled than other characters, and from the start, he's much more powerful. He also has the skill Guard, activated by command to provide reliable protection to other characters, but that's about it. Other characters have or gain other skills and more of them, giving them an edge in terms of combat even without needing to fully catch up to him in level, stats, and weapons. Meanwhile, Ward stays ahead in his own ways for quite a while and retains his defensive utility, even having a permanent niche as the only mounted Guard user.

With raw combat, characters that get ahead have an easier time staying ahead just because they can fight so much more. There aren't many good ways for characters to catch up in a situation like that to beat a character that starts ahead at their own game, whether it's a regular character vs. a Jagen or an Est vs. a regular character. Jagen's pitiful growths worked to keep him from going anywhere, but that was so limiting.

[Griffen78]

As long as there are no skills that count as over kill+status effect or something that will probably not be seen...do to overkill ._.

Some of those skills are not to horrible though....like pierce, sol, shock,etc....if they took away the crit part they would be useful skills that aren't to game breaking/stupid.

[Anouleth]

Here's the issue I have with "always on promotion" when it comes to masteries. Let's take, for example, a unit like my man Wil (you know you saw this coming). Are we both in agreement that Wil isn't a very high rated unit for most people?

Wil's problem isn't when he's promoted -- it's when he's starting out. FE7 had a funny way of making archers have sucktastic bases (EP-heavy combat and super-powerful, light javelins didn't help out here either). Wil, as a 20/?? sniper, is actually pretty badass (or, at least in comparison to his former self); he has enough SPD to double ALMOST every generic in FE7, durability similar to Raven's (which, by FE7 standards, is quite solid), 50% STR growth, and easy access to silver/killer w/o AS loss, Longbow for Luna Druids, and Brave Bow for the very fastest enemies he can't double. However, most people just look at the effort to raise him and his bow lock and say "Fuck this guy!", something that can be easily understood given the nature of FE7.

My point, if it wasn't clear by now, is that some units might need mastery-like skills early on to make training them easier so they can reach their potential, especially growth units w/ bad bases or units like archers (and to a lesser extent, mages), who have inherent weaknesses that need to be worked around until they can come into their own. Having mastery skills on promotion is just going to encourage heavy use of prepromotes (provided any are given at the tier where masteries are handed out), which is something which should be dissuaded instead.

I would argue that a character like Wil just shouldn't have awful bases in combination with bow lock in a game like FE7 that heavily punishes it. It's not my responsibility for every suggestion that comes out of my mouth to completely fix everything wrong with FE. Obviously, getting a skill on promotion would not even come close to fixing the issues of Wendy or Lyre even if it's a really good skill, but I never suggested such a system would balance the game. Giving some units better skills and other units worse skills can be part of balancing the game, but it's not the whole story, and I never said it was. I suggested this as a way of adapting Mastery skills to make them more variable and more interesting, and to make acquiring them more meaningful.

And I would give prepromotes a weaker mastery skill or something. Like, something super situational and useless, or someting that complements the idea of an earlygame crutch. Like Titania's weak-as-shit Counter skill. Or maybe giving them Provoke to help them meatshield. Or even an Elincia-style Mercy skill or a Nailah-style Glare skill to help them feed kills to weaker units. The kind of stuff that would not be useful to a player who was trying to solo the game with them. The possibilities are practically endless, so let's not jump to conclusions and say "they're broken".

Indeed: the later you get a skill, the less relevant it is.

However, with all of this in mind, I can't say I understand why you keep saying "mastery". We've dismissed the FE10 masteries because they were idiotic, and there's nothing else that would associate any particular content for such a skill, therefore all we're talking about is ordinary skills that aren't "mastery-like" any more than they are like any other sorts of skills. Presumably, most if not all of them are good, relevant skills, but that's just because we want this to matter.

They are like mastery skills in that they are skills that are acquired automatically and invariably upon promoting, and that they cannot be removed and given to another person. Indeed, the only distinction I am drawing is that mastery skills should be more interesting and there should be more of them. And I don't think they were "idiotic", either. I don't think that IS are "idiots", since making computer games is after all a pretty tough thing to do and every game company makes design choices that seem stupid given hindsight. Mastery skills were a good idea, but it feels to me that they tried to compensate for how horribly useless they were back in FE9, while keeping the rough idea and went too far. The sad fact is that there's only so many interesting things a combat skill can do.