Mechanics that you want

[bottlegnomes]

I'd kinda like a game where there are no lords, so anyone can die. It would probably cause problems with the story, but I can always dream.

[Refa]

Personally, I argue against casual mode. Fire Emblem is one of the very few games where you have dozens of party members, and all have families, back stories, aspirations, homes, and bonds. It makes them as real as fictional characters can get. The one thing that 'real' people have, that most fictional characters don't are mortality and consequence; that gives Fire Emblem a unique characteristic in the gaming world.

Contrast Advance Wars, where your army is both faceless, and death is a part of how you play. Otherwise similar games are defined quite literally by how one treats life and death.

This is 100% correct, and a reason that FE is good. It gives the newer games something that the more archaic 1-5 (maybe 6) couldn't hope to match (and by newer games, I mean 7-9 and 12).

Go on. I'm not saying you should be full-on rewarded for having a unit die (you lose the unit, obviously), and none of those ideas would be final drafts, but as it is, unit death plays a very subdued part in the characterization of a series about war which is supposed to be plot-focused, where I'd assume death would be all around us. Doesn't that seem odd?

I think it would be pretty interesting if they added story bits to acknowledge the units death, but really,what would they say? "Boo hoo, I'm so sorry unit [x] died!"? Sorry, I know I'm not a professional writer, but I can't think of any compelling dialogue that would result from it (maybe me being shortsighted, I did like the whole Matthew/Leila thing). Gameplay bonuses are a nono, I don't want to be rewarded for killing my units, I want to feel like a jerk for letting them die in the first place.

Also the people who say permadeath has no meaning are wrong. Firstly, it runs off the assumption that EVERYONE who plays FE resets after a unit dies, which makes their argument conceptually flawed.

Let's say you're playing Yoshi's Island. Yoshi falls into a pit and dies, so you have to restart the stage, or go back to the last checkpoint.

In Fire Emblem, the way it's usually played, you're playing as all of the characters. If one of them dies, you restart the map or go back to the last checkpoint. It's the same deal. When you play Yoshi's Island, you need to complete the stage, but you also need to keep Yoshi alive while doing so. When you play Fire Emblem, you need to complete the stage, but you need to keep all your characters alive when doing so. This greatly impacts how you play FE.

Now, FE doesn't force that upon us. It could, by making it so that losing any character would be an instant Game Over. But who wants that? Instead, we have it be treated as a Game Over if we want it to be, or we can continue and move on with the loss, impacting the gameplay in a rather special way.

That is the effect of permadeath in FE. Its impact is a substantial and meaningful one, even though it is more often the threat of permadeath that affects how we play. Where's the problem?

Man, you nailed that right on the head. That's why permadeath works so well.

[Thor Odinson]

I don't see the problem with casual mode as long as we still have our classic mode. It's just an option there for people who don't wanna reset when people die, and it doesn't interfere with those of us who do like having permadeath around. As long as it's just an option, it shouldn't be a problem. Don't like it? Just click classic and nothing is lost.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Othin]

By making the non-permadeath in Casual Mode only, it establishes that version as not being the game's "real" story. It's not like the characters need to magically come back from the dead; they could just retreat in that mode.

[Refa]

I don't see the problem with casual mode as long as we still have our classic mode. It's just an option there for people who don't wanna reset when people die, and it doesn't interfere with those of us who do like having permadeath around. As long as it's just an option, it shouldn't be a problem. Don't like it? Just click classic and nothing is lost.

Because "Casual Mode" is the easy way out. It doesn't impact my personal experience in any way because I won't use it. However, permadeath is one of the defining features of FE, and casual mode sort of ruins that. FE has always been a daunting series with it's permadeath mechanics, and given the choice, new players would obviously want to take the easy way out. They'll never find out why permadeath works well, and it will probably color their view of the past installments of the series in a negative light, because THOSE games are UNPLAYABLELY hard (exageratted reaction), with their forced permadeath. I know for sure if I had the choice of "easy way out" or FE, I would've picked easy way out any time and never realized why FE is such a great series in the first place.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Refa

[Thor Odinson]

Well that's you, then. Once I accidentally clicked casual because I can't read Japanese, and I still ended up playing the game like permadeath exists. For a perfectionist like me, if a unit dies or retreats, that strategy was a failure, and I must restart no matter what. Maybe make the button for Classic bigger or something. Or Casual as a newplaythrough+ thing. I dunno. I just don't think it should be taken away for those who do prefer it.

[Othin]

Because "Casual Mode" is the easy way out. It doesn't impact my personal experience in any way because I won't use it. However, permadeath is one of the defining features of FE, and casual mode sort of ruins that. FE has always been a daunting series with it's permadeath mechanics, and given the choice, new players would obviously want to take the easy way out. They'll never find out why permadeath works well, and it will probably color their view of the past installments of the series in a negative light, because THOSE games are UNPLAYABLELY hard (exageratted reaction), with their forced permadeath. I know for sure if I had the choice of "easy way out" or FE, I would've picked easy way out any time and never realized why FE is such a great series in the first place.

Because everyone always clicks "Easy Mode" whenever starting a game and can never adjust to playing any higher difficulty level? That's all this is.

[Rehab]

I think it would be pretty interesting if they added story bits to acknowledge the units death, but really,what would they say? "Boo hoo, I'm so sorry unit [x] died!"? Sorry, I know I'm not a professional writer, but I can't think of any compelling dialogue that would result from it (maybe me being shortsighted, I did like the whole Matthew/Leila thing). Gameplay bonuses are a nono, I don't want to be rewarded for killing my units, I want to feel like a jerk for letting them die in the first place.

Also the people who say permadeath has no meaning are wrong. Firstly, it runs off the assumption that EVERYONE who plays FE resets after a unit dies, which makes their argument conceptually flawed.

One thing I mentioned in my first post on death was that the personalities of the characters who were close to the dying unit could be influenced by their friend's death. (thinking out type here) Maybe their visual sprites could be changed, maybe the people they can support with could change, maybe they could have significantly altered dialogue from that point on, maybe even their growths could change. Maybe they could have chances to get certain items that wouldn't appear if the friend had lived, or they could have opportunities to get items they would have gotten if the unit had lived taken away, or both!

To be sure, I don't think death or the threat of death has no meaning in Fire Emblem, but it's so constantly and easily metagamed around, rather than dealt with itself, that one rarely actually has to deal with its consequences if they don't want to. And in its current state, that's a good thing for the most part, because not only do you get punished for the unit's death by not being able to use them anymore, but the unit may as well have not even existed as far as the story's concerned, because they usually aren't even mentioned later until their slot comes up during the end credits where it says "___ was slain at the battle of ___." As far as I'm aware, they rarely even say that much about the character at that point, either. It's not very often that Fire Emblem examines the actual consequences of a character's death, which I feel is at times disconcerting. For a series with so much of that going on.

Picture this: I'm a new player. I see that, say, Rebecca and Wil have a special relationship. I want to see whether anything will happen to the story if one of them dies. I kill one of them off. Nothing. The hell?

Even if it was just extra dialogue for the sake of characterization, I think IS could do some cool stuff with unit death if they really wanted to, and make a character's worth about more than just its battlefield performance.

man I sure say death a lot in this post

Edited January 10, 2012 by Rehab

[Snowy_One]

Picture this: I'm a new player. I see that, say, Rebecca and Wil have a special relationship. I want to see whether anything will happen to the story if one of them dies. I kill one of them off. Nothing. The hell?

Even if it was just extra dialogue for the sake of characterization, I think IS could do some cool stuff with unit death if they really wanted to, and make a character's worth about more than just its battlefield performance.

Wil was buried upon the hilltops of his home village. Every week, Rebecca came to visit, dropping off a special boutique of flowers. As the years went by, eventually her son, Wil, took her stead, honoring a man he never knew, but loved as his own father.

[Rehab]

Derp! My mistake, I assumed too much about the endings, didn't remember that the last time I read them. I should go back and read the scripts.

I wonder how a Tactics Ogre-style death system would work in Fire Emblem. Is the density of enemy units enough to make reviving the wounded in one turn feel anywhere near as harrowing as the threat of falling=death?

[RNG Princess]

What if they apply something like Biorhythm to the characters? Like if two characters support each other both are in "good" biorhythm but if one of them dies and the other is alive he/she gets "bad" or "worst" biorhythm throughout the game? Or would that be too gamebreaking?

[General Banzai]

Man, I'm ashamed that some of you guys call yourselves fans of this series.

I feel like I don't even need to interject an argument here because the argument itself is just so mind-numbingly jaw-droppingly ugh that I wouldn't know where to begin.

I WILL say that in Path of Radiance there actually is a ton of dialogue options for if a certain unit dies (typically in the first eight or so chapters of the game, when everyone in the Greil's Mercs still gets lines). There's a bunch of crap like "If Oscar were still here, I think he'd want us to save Elincia" etc.

[CrashGordon94]

Because everyone always clicks "Easy Mode" whenever starting a game and can never adjust to playing any higher difficulty level? That's all this is.

Exactly.

I support Casual Mode 100%, it'll get more people into the series too, which would mean more money of IS and more FE games.

[Refa]

Because everyone always clicks "Easy Mode" whenever starting a game and can never adjust to playing any higher difficulty level? That's all this is.

Not really. There's different difficulty settings, and then there's the casual/normal modes on top of that. For new players, picking classic is the same as picking classic in Castlevania Rebirth (that makes controls similar to the NES Castlevania games), an unnecessary limitation that doesn't seem to add anything to the game besides frustration. Is this true of all new players? No, but it is true of a not insignificant portion of new FE players who could potentially enjoy the permadeath mechanic. Some may choose to play Classic later on, but I'd say a lot will just play the harder difficulty settings on casual.

[Othin]

Not really. There's different difficulty settings, and then there's the casual/normal modes on top of that. For new players, picking classic is the same as picking classic in Castlevania Rebirth (that makes controls similar to the NES Castlevania games), an unnecessary limitation that doesn't seem to add anything to the game besides frustration. Is this true of all new players? No, but it is true of a not insignificant portion of new FE players who could potentially enjoy the permadeath mechanic. Some may choose to play Classic later on, but I'd say a lot will just play the harder difficulty settings on casual.

Which is only an issue if Casual Mode can be applied to any difficulty level. FE12 may do that, but it doesn't mean any future game has to or should do the same.

[CrashGordon94]

And more to the point, if they're going to "cop out" with Casual and never try Classic, then a good amount of times I'd guess that they wouldn't try the game period because the mechanic simply bothers them that much. So all this "cop out" is doing is letting people who are THAT bummed out by permanent death at least TRY the game instead of just being forced to throw up their hands and say "Oh well, I can't play it".

[Refa]

And more to the point, if they're going to "cop out" with Casual and never try Classic, then a good amount of times I'd guess-

Wrong.

(I know of plenty of people who are interested in the FE series for reasons other than the gameplay)

Casual mode is probably perfectly fine for people who hate permadeath, but...I don't see why FE needs to cater to those people.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Refa

[I.M. Gei]

Wrong.

(I know of plenty of people who are interested in the FE series for reasons other than the gameplay)

Casual mode is probably perfectly fine for people who hate permadeath, but...I don't see why FE needs to cater to those people.

Why shouldn't they? What's wrong with having a mode for those who want to play with the classic permadeath mechanic and, at the same time, catering to those who want to play without it?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Rewjeo]

Why should FE cater to them? How about money for IS. I think that's a good idea.

[Thor Odinson]

Then maybe they'll actually think about localising for us again. Hate pressing the wrong button accidentally in Japanese

[arvilino]

I've accidentally picked casual in FE12. From what it seems though, the selection box thing always starts over classic mode when you get the choice.

[Thor Odinson]

Yeah that time, I thought Casual was selected and Classic was not because I can't remember for the life of me, and then I checked and saw the other way around.

Didn't affect my playstyle in the slightest.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Why shouldn't they? What's wrong with having a mode for those who want to play with the classic permadeath mechanic and, at the same time, catering to those who want to play without it?

Basically this. Giving two (or more) different modes, one for the casual and one for the hardcore, is probably one of the best developments in recent video games. It allows you to accomodate both fields of gamers (and make IS more money and increase the odds of a port to the US, since the Japanese seem to think American gamers suck).

[bottlegnomes]

I love when people complain about stuff like this. It's like when people were complaining about battle saves ruining FE, or reclass. Personally, I like the option, though I probably won't use it. As for them trying older games, I don't see how that's a problem. If people get into the series enough, thanks to this option, to try the older games and actually deal with permadeath then that's good. If they decide not to play them because they don't have casual mode then so what? It's like someone complaining about FE3 adding a combat window and movement ranges, thus making FE1 and 2 difficult to play from newer players' point of view, which a lot of us view them as.

[CrashGordon94]

On another note I think it'd be cool if someone had a personal skill that let them attack with an internalized Dark Magic spell at the cost of their own health, like a cross between Final Fantasy's Souleater command and the Vortex skill of FE9.