Which one

[Colonel M]

Anouleth always liked the shittiest characters.

Besides, we all know the best Axe user is Geitz because his manliness gives him Brave Bow.

EDIT: Wait, why can't I win at pissing matches? I can piss the furthest you know!

Edited November 19, 2011 by Colonel M

[MacLovin]

My Hawkeye's gotten really blessed.

16 def and 14 res at lvl 20/10

----------------------------------------------

Geitz is spamming steel, 'till he gets silver bows A rank.

I'm on Kenneths map. How do I get Harken here-again??

Edited November 19, 2011 by Silver Harpoon

[dondon151]

dondon, you know that's not a fair comment. Your videos show growth units as useless because they aren't allowed to gain the stats needed for them to be on par or better than prepromotes. Sure, your FE6 videos show Percival as a god but that's because Alan and Lance aren't allowed to achieve their full potential.

This is really not a fair assumption. I did not mean that all prepromotes were optimal (this is my fault for not more carefully choosing my wording), and I did not mean that prepromotes were optimal in all circumstances. It's not so simple to the point where one can make an accurate blanket statement.

But there are circumstances where you can identify that a prepromote is optimal because you can reason that no other growth unit will be able to match those parameters given a certain window of preparation. And there are also more circumstances where you can identify that just being adequate is optimal enough.

[MacLovin]

Well, what have I started......................

I'm already giving a speedwing to Hawkeye, what should I give to Geitz?

[Colonel M]

Geitz likely doesn't need anything. Maybe a Dracoshield just to keep his Defense healthy, but really he's pretty set in stone for the most part. Maybe Energy Ring?

[Life]

This is really not a fair assumption. I did not mean that all prepromotes were optimal (this is my fault for not more carefully choosing my wording), and I did not mean that prepromotes were optimal in all circumstances. It's not so simple to the point where one can make an accurate blanket statement.

I wouldn't have nailed you on it if you didn't refer to your videos as your proof. If they showed an efficiency run under normal circumstances, then fine.

[Refa]

And Pent is no Boah. Or Wendell.

...Boah? Do people think he's good nowadays?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

...Boah? Do people think he's good nowadays?

from my Wendell topic people still don't think so.

i assume dark sage never used wendell so he's not informed on how useful he is

[Dark Sage]

from my Wendell topic people still don't think so.

i assume dark sage never used wendell so he's not informed on how useful he is

Wendell is the best Pope ever. Only Marcus can stand up to the sheer badassery of the pope.

Behold him in his full glory:

How can you say no to that?

So in conclusion: shut up if you don't know my opinion.

[General Horace]

Boah is a pretty cool guy too, and has a better stache than Wendall. But if Wendall has his stache...

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

That's because 20/1 Kent by that point in the game is completely unreasonable. Efficiency players who try hard have Kent at 14/1 at best, and he loses some important parameters to her. You also said yourself that units "shouldn't" be hitting 20/1 until like chapter 28 or so in ranked.

This is true and generally held out when I was doing EHM S rank and will hold for about 90% of characters in my HHM S rank.

The problem is that Sain and Kent is that they are just so much more useful once you hit HHM for low turning (high MOV, Kent has been reliably doubling for me since recruitment, my Sain actually ended up blessed and was rocking 32 ATK with a silver lance, which allowed him to OHKO Kishuna, AND Sain doubles a fair amount of time) that them hitting 18/-- to 20/-- kind of happened without me intending to do it. For honesty's sake, I am doing a Marcus-less run, which means that a cav is slightly more desired on a couple of maps, but I can't say it's hard for Sain and/or Kent to be slightly above the average of 14/-- or 15/-- you'll have for some units at that time.

Actually, in my log, I've just promoted Kent right in Living Legend, and still posted competitive experience and turn counts.

Isadora also can't get hit by enemies in chapter 22 if she leverages the weapon triangle correctly. Her offense is also actually really good because few units can boast both 13 str, enough AS to double, and access to silvers. She, Marcus, and Sain are exclusive to the club of units who can ORKO chapter 23x enemies (even disregarding her 8 move).

I don't know why you so obstinately hold on to this position. You said yourself that you have followed my videos. I have proven time and again that a majority of prepromotes are adequate, if not optimal, for use.

In 22, I had a Lowen with 11 STR who could double and ORKO the swordreaver fighters with an iron lance while blocking off the breakable wall, and my 2 STR/1 SPD blessed Kent could ORKO anything but wyverns (and I think he could come close to doing it to them with a steel lance). Isadora does ORKO, but you really feel her lack of durability (like I said, she les TEN less health and a good 4 less DEF on average than a typical 20/-- Kent) and her ATK in Kinship's Bond looks better than it is because of her silver sword/short spear. If you gave the weapons to Kent, he could probably do the same thing as her (I mean, she has a SLIGHT lead on Kent if he walks in 15/--, but I was able to get him from 18/-- to 20/-- with him getting 6-7 experience per kill with some enemies left over...15/-- Kent could hit 18/-- at least by the chapter's end, closing the gap with her).

I can't say for 23x, although I think my 20/1 Kent could be damn close to ORKO'ing at worst.

She's not horrible (and that 50% SPD growth...pretty freaking sweet, I won't lie), and probably pretty solid overall, but in order to close her CON gap to reduce AS loss, you have to take a hit to funds, and I could just as well use those same funds to use an energy drop on Kent and get him to 15 STR/15 SPD by 18/-- or, in my case, 19 STR/18 SPD by 20/1. Isadora's 13 STR/16 SPD (or 14 effective with iron axes and body ring) is at best equal to Kent when she first joins -- Kent eventually outgrows her, though.

As for your videos, I think many of them are 0% growth ones, which aren't really fair to the non-prepromos, who can never exceed base stats and use their main advantage (namely, higher growths and slightly better stats at prepromo base level). That being said, I've slowly softened my stance on prepromos -- it's not fair to put somebody like Pent or FE7 Marcus in the same league as Isadora or maybe Hawkeye.

EDIT: Sorry for the tardiness...first day of work and all.

EDIT2: @ Colonel M: I'm actually pretty shocked at how close many of Geitz's growths are to Bartre's. Barte technically wins at equal level, and I think especially in RES, but holy crap he's annoying to raise in HHM. Also, dondon obviously doesn't love all crappy characters, looking back at my somewhat infamous "Meg" topic recently.

EDIT3: I think Nino might be second (well, maybe third behind Athos) for best Body Ring candidate (if used, obv.). I mean, looking at the numbers from before, body ring basically removes any AS loss from Fire tomes pre-promotion and AS loss from Thunder post-promotion. She'd be a complete beast with a body ring. 24 ATK with 20 AS at 20/1 or 26 ATK with 22 AS at 20/5? OM NOM NOM. And it does push her into doubling range with many characters in Final and out of doubled range for Lloyd, however relevent (or irrelevent) it is.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[General Horace]

In my logged efficiency run (fuck you too Cog of Destiny, I will 6 turn you someday), Isadora was more useful than Sain, as she was needed for a swift clear of Kinship's Bond, and Crazed Beast. Mind you, my Sain is slightly strength screwed, but I doubt it would make a difference, he's not doubling anything anyway.

Edited November 19, 2011 by General Horace

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

In my logged efficiency run (fuck you too Cog of Destiny, I will 6 turn you someday), Isadora was more useful than Sain, as she was needed for a swift clear of Kinship's Bond, and Crazed Beast. Mind you, my Sain is slightly strength screwed, but I doubt it would make a difference, he's not doubling anything anyway.

I'm assuming your efficiency run tended to have heavy use of Marcus in the beginning, thus making your Sain/Kent have lower levels than in a S rank run. I mean, if Sain/Kent are lower than 14/-- or 15/--, and especially is Sain is RNG screwed, and you're essentially thrown a free paladin in Kinship's Bond, I see her definitely being more useful than in S rank runs.

I personally just don't like efficiency playthroughs (not saying I don't try to low turn as much as I can on my S rank runs); I'm not sure why, I just don't find them as fun as S ranking, where the requirements are more...uniform. My favorite runs are actually seeing how low of a turn count I can get while still S ranking (I think my S rank EHM was just over 300 turns -- I might try to beat that someday). What I'm trying to say in my rambling is that I can't really argue who's best in a type of run I don't have experience with.

[Life]

EDIT3: I think Nino might be second (well, maybe third behind Athos) for best Body Ring candidate (if used, obv.). I mean, looking at the numbers from before, body ring basically removes any AS loss from Fire tomes pre-promotion and AS loss from Thunder post-promotion. She'd be a complete beast with a body ring. 24 ATK with 20 AS at 20/1 or 26 ATK with 22 AS at 20/5? OM NOM NOM. And it does push her into doubling range with many characters in Final and out of doubled range for Lloyd, however relevent (or irrelevent) it is.

Stop being stupid. Donny-boy already proved that 22 AS is pointless at that part of the game because about 18 AS is sufficient to double everything around you. Oh, big deal, Nino doubles a couple more endgame bosses (she still does shit damage, mind you). Whoopie. This means something because...?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Stop being stupid. Donny-boy already proved that 22 AS is pointless at that part of the game because about 18 AS is sufficient to double everything around you. Oh, big deal, Nino doubles a couple more endgame bosses (she still does shit damage, mind you). Whoopie. This means something because...?

I was merely casually thinking about the Nino discusssion earlier in the thread and about how she has horrible CON, thus making the body ring good for her. I'm not trying to continue that discussion, just point out that a body ring would make it easier to train her pre-promotion by basically removing her AS loss from fire (and making thunder only a 1 AS loss), and continue to benefit her post-premotion.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Life]

I was merely casually thinking about the Nino discusssion earlier in the thread and about how she has horrible CON, thus making the body ring good for her. I'm not trying to continue that discussion, just point out that a body ring would make it easier to train her pre-promotion by basically removing her AS loss from fire (and making thunder only a 1 AS loss), and continue to benefit her post-premotion.

But it doesn't DO anything for her. She loses her AS but what exactly does she gain? Does she go from 2RKOing anything to ORKOing anything because of it? Isadora certainly does since she can at least wield powerful weapons.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

But it doesn't DO anything for her. She loses her AS but what exactly does she gain? Does she go from 2RKOing anything to ORKOing anything because of it? Isadora certainly does since she can at least wield powerful weapons.

Well, it would definitely make her easier to train (better avo, earlier doubling with fire and much earlier doubling with thunder), and continues to benefit her post-promotion. The big issue with the Body Ring is that it comes so late, many silver weapons are so light, and HHM enemy AS speeds tend to be so stagnant (hell, my 7/-- Florina is doubling enemies in Living Legend atm with an iron lance) that there isn't as much competition for it as some other stat boosters. Body ring is great for Athos because it cuts turns in Final for sure, nice for Isadora because it makes her a decent alternative to Sain/Kent, and nice for Nino because it makes training her a little easier (and because Nino also tends to cap speed, making a Speedwing a bit of a waste in comparison).

It would also be nice for the pegasi, but I'm not sure if the Body Ring would push them into doubling enemies they normally would not with a javelin.

[General Horace]

Well, it would definitely make her easier to train (better avo, earlier doubling with fire and much earlier doubling with thunder), and continues to benefit her post-promotion. The big issue with the Body Ring is that it comes so late, many silver weapons are so light, and HHM enemy AS speeds tend to be so stagnant (hell, my 7/-- Florina is doubling enemies in Living Legend atm with an iron lance) that there isn't as much competition for it as some other stat boosters. Body ring is great for Athos because it cuts turns in Final for sure, nice for Isadora because it makes her a decent alternative to Sain/Kent, and nice for Nino because it makes training her a little easier (and because Nino also tends to cap speed, making a Speedwing a bit of a waste in comparison).

It would also be nice for the pegasi, but I'm not sure if the Body Ring would push them into doubling enemies they normally would not with a javelin.

I usually would discourage giving the Body Ring to Pegasi, as it takes away their advantage (well, Florina's) of rescuing the heftier units like Hector. Although with Heath being able to carry Hector, I don't see why you would have Florina do it in the first place.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I usually would discourage giving the Body Ring to Pegasi, as it takes away their advantage (well, Florina's) of rescuing the heftier units like Hector. Although with Heath being able to carry Hector, I don't see why you would have Florina do it in the first place.

I guess that's true, and I forgot to think about the AID stat decreasing with the use of a body ring. Most of the times where Florina ferries Hector tend to be early-game, though (Noble Lady of Caelin comes to mind).

[dondon151]

You -always- want to ferry people. At all points in this game. This is dondon rule number 1.

Edited November 20, 2011 by dondon151

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

You -always- want to ferry people. At all points in this game. This is dondon rule number 1.

Considering that you like 0% growth runs where your lord probably dies to a stiff breeze and efficiency runs where ferrying is probably the best chance at the lowest turn count in any seize chapter, I can see why you made that rule.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Thor Odinson]

I use ferrying to get the foot units I like more action. :P

[Parrhesia]

Considering that you like 0% growth runs where your lord probably dies to a stiff breeze and efficiency runs where ferrying is probably the best chance at the lowest turn count in any seize chapter, I can see why you made that rule.

0% growth or not, perma-5 move Hector is still slow to move as shit.