Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm STILL wondering what Sableye's doing below stuff like Bagon, which takes forever and a day to evolve, and Slugma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I love Zubat, but its start is rocky, and steel wing has compt in the form of Tailow. You're not going to use both Zubat and Taillow, though. And whereas Taillow has the clear earlygame advantage, Crobat is significantly better lategame mostly because of improved bulk. Its like a Staryu that sacrifices psychic and speed for bulk and electric stab. Not really... it also has much lower SpAtk than Starmie, and bulk doesn't really matter because Starmie has Recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 I see the point of Tailow and Zubat not being used at the same time. Still. Staryus rare, requires TB and IB tms that are expensive. And the ones that you find, may have been used on sharpedo/swampert and Manectric/Magneton/Gardevoir Also, IDT that psychic is found in wild as an item ball. So, there's 3500 tokens down the drain for it. Oh, and the one easily gotten water stone has decent compt in the form of Ludicolo, who has bulk, giga drain, hydro pump/surf, IB, rain dance+rain dish, and nature power. It does have a rocky start, but is decent later on. Lanturn has all of the ocean to kill, and can rely on spark until you get enough cash. Staryu needs IB/TB IMO, so it can start sweeping. And, IDT if people usually go for the scanner/water stone as soon as mossdeep is beaten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Staryus rare, requires TB and IB tms that are expensive. And the ones that you find, may have been used on sharpedo/swampert and Manectric/Magneton/Gardevoir Also, IDT that psychic is found in wild as an item ball. So, there's 3500 tokens down the drain for it. Oh, and the one easily gotten water stone has decent compt in the form of Ludicolo, who has bulk, giga drain, hydro pump/surf, IB, rain dance+rain dish, and nature power. It does have a rocky start, but is decent later on. Lanturn has all of the ocean to kill, and can rely on spark until you get enough cash. Staryu needs IB/TB IMO, so it can start sweeping. And, IDT if people usually go for the scanner/water stone as soon as mossdeep is beaten. The bulk argument is irrelevant for reasons already stated. The Psychic TM is found in Victory Road. And on that note, the TM for Rain Dance can't be gotten until after Mossdeep. Nature Power can't be relied on due to the whole thing about effects varying by location, and Hydro Pump isn't learned unless you tough it out with a Lombre until level 49, which is a tall order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Chinchou is every bit superior to that damn starfish. If we wouldn'tt consider availability I would argue Chinchou to high. That elect. type is pretty damn matterfull sableye could rise a bit Zubat is better than its spot but has no change of ever hitting high.You either catch one of those in dewford or wait forever and dewford ones suck royal dick. in what universe is lotad seriously used in ingame? Bagon needs to drop atleast a tier. Why is gulpin still under grimer and koffing? Oddish shoul take a nosedive for being worse dustox untill third stage without early game utility. Im not even kidding, compare Dustox's and Gloom's stats and movesets. Zangoose should drop to upper mid for god-awfull availability. Zigzagoon could go over maril. Zigzagoon is solid pkmn in the ingame with amazing ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Chinchou is every bit superior to that damn starfish. If we wouldn'tt consider availability I would argue Chinchou to high. That elect. type is pretty damn matterfull sableye could rise a bit What's this? Lanturn hype with no real backing? Bah. All Lanturn really has over it is HP; Starmie's faster and stronger, and also has Recover. I agree on Sableye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You want proof? I give you some proof as your unable to do your own damn rescearch as you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Starmie is absolutely horrid pkmn. Its lv. up movepool is so bad that only notable move is recover. After that everything not named surf needs recourses. It needs TB and/or IB and maybe psyhic to even funktion. Thats how awfull it is all 3 moves have shitton of competition. Then we have lanturn. While lanturn likes all these recourses just like starmie, it can funktion without. It has stab spark just in case thunderbolt is taken and surf is always option. It still would like that IB but who wouldn't? Also it has electrik type's blessing of a resistance roster Lets watch their contributions shall we? both come underleveled so i assume they are at useable lvs during 8th gym and thus ignore anything before that. Juan/Wallace: Starmie is tearing stuff apart if it has thunderbolt, otherwise it can go watch super bowl or something. Lanturn tears stuff apart anyway because it will always have at least spark. advantage lanturn Victory road: Lanturn has egually impressive if not superior coverage and resitances on top of that. Starmie has coverage if it gets pile of TMs advantage: lanturn Dark elite 4 hey look dark stabs 24/7 Advantage: lanturn Ghost Elite 4 Hey look ghost stabs 24/7 Advantage: lanturn Ice Elite 4 Both might have Thunderbolt, Lanturn will have elect. stab move Advantage: Lanturn Dragon Elite 4 Both might have IB, Flygon is a bitch for lanturn. Advantage: Starmie Steven Half team Earthquakes Lanturn, Lanturn beats the other half. Starmie is a boss all day. Advantage Starmie Wallace Both beat with thunderbolt (Have we been here before?) That is if Starmie has it (is this happening again?) Lanturn will have stab elect. (omg this is happening again) Advantage Lanturn Final score: Lanturn: 5 Starmie: 2 Then lets remember lanturn is solid agains half of steven and half of drake. Starmie is not solid vs phoebe and sydney. This results +0.5 for lanturn Lanturn: 5.5 Starmie 2 Ok seriously, why the fuck would I ever use starmie over lanturn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You want proof? I give you some proof as your unable to do your own damn rescearch as you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Starmie is absolutely horrid pkmn. Its lv. up movepool is so bad that only notable move is recover. After that everything not named surf needs recourses. It needs TB and/or IB and maybe psyhic to even funktion. Thats how awfull it is all 3 moves have shitton of competition. Then we have lanturn. While lanturn likes all these recourses just like starmie, it can funktion without. It has stab spark just in case thunderbolt is taken and surf is always option. It still would like that IB but who wouldn't? Also it has electrik type's blessing of a resistance roster Lets watch their contributions shall we? both come underleveled so i assume they are at useable lvs during 8th gym and thus ignore anything before that. Juan/Wallace: Starmie is tearing stuff apart if it has thunderbolt, otherwise it can go watch super bowl or something. Lanturn tears stuff apart anyway because it will always have at least spark. advantage lanturn Victory road: Lanturn has egually impressive if not superior coverage and resitances on top of that. Starmie has coverage if it gets pile of TMs advantage: lanturn Dark elite 4 hey look dark stabs 24/7 Advantage: lanturn Ghost Elite 4 Hey look ghost stabs 24/7 Advantage: lanturn Ice Elite 4 Both might have Thunderbolt, Lanturn will have elect. stab move Advantage: Lanturn Dragon Elite 4 Both might have IB, Flygon is a bitch for lanturn. Advantage: Starmie Steven Half team Earthquakes Lanturn, Lanturn beats the other half. Starmie is a boss all day. Advantage Starmie Wallace Both beat with thunderbolt (Have we been here before?) That is if Starmie has it (is this happening again?) Lanturn will have stab elect. (omg this is happening again) Advantage Lanturn Final score: Lanturn: 5 Starmie: 2 Then lets remember lanturn is solid agains half of steven and half of drake. Starmie is not solid vs phoebe and sydney. This results +0.5 for lanturn Lanturn: 5.5 Starmie 2 Ok seriously, why the fuck would I ever use starmie over lanturn? I'm not really impressed by a Spark coming off 76 base sp. atk. On Sidney and Phoebe: Dark's a special type, and Sharpedo and Cacturne aside, none of Sidney's Pokemon have the Sp. Atk to actually threaten Starmie (and Starmie can one-shot them both) - hell, most of his Pokemon don't even have a Dark attack. You have a point on Phoebe, but Starmie's offense doesn't suck, which is important here since she has two Dusclops, which have Pressure as their ability (and one even has Earthquake). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Stab spark is pretty damn impressive with 70ish spa. atk and super effective. 30% paralyze dont harm either Given your point though, I admit starmie is not utter waste against the ghost and dark elites. Starmie is still far beyong mortal understanding when it comes to resource whoreing thou... Edited February 10, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Pinkie.Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Stab spark is pretty damn impressive with 70ish spa. atk and super effective. 30% paralyze dont harm either Given your point though, I admit starmie is not utter waste against the ghost and dark elites. Starmie is still far beyong mortal understanding when it comes to resource whoreing thou... Not to me it isn't. Juan/Wallace have a Whiscash, and in Emerald the latter has a Gyarados with EQ, which means goodbye Lanturn (and before you try to say otherwise, Gyarados outspeeds Lanturn). I'd also say Starmie does better on Wallace's Milotic (even if it can't break Milotic, there's no way in hell Lanturn can with 76 base sp. atk against Milotic's 125 base Sp. def). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 **thinks gyarados does not OHKO lanturn while lanturn if not ohko atleast majorly hurts gyarados** as I said it takes thunderbolt for starmie do anything against waters. and wishcash is just as roadblock to starmie as it is to lanturn so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 **thinks gyarados does not OHKO lanturn while lanturn if not ohko atleast majorly hurts gyarados** as I said it takes thunderbolt for starmie do anything against waters. and wishcash is just as roadblock to starmie as it is to lanturn so Good luck with that when... 1. Gyarados is faster (81 base speed vs. Lanturn's 68). 2. Lanturn's defense sucks. 3. Gyarados has EQ, as I stated earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Lanturn>Starmie. Starmies nice in compt., but it drains resources harder than fe10 Fiona in HM. And, even if it still has spark, wouldn't we have another pkmn with electric moves that is faster? Like Alakazam/shockwave, Gardevoir/SW or TB, Manectric, Electrode, hell-even Kyogre/Groudon with thunder/TB for Groudon. Even Slaking can make a dent with thunder/TB. Also, Hariyama rising? I can see it going right below Shroomish. Decent durability HP Cushion Bulk up And some nice stab moves EQ Belly drum Counter Rock tomb Secret power/return. It makes use of several cheap TMs quite nicely, like secret power. Also,bulk up does not have much compt. Blaziken-good, but does it need it? Machoke- Hariyama and Machoke on same team is not likely Breloom-IDK here, it could use it Medidicham-IDK, never used it Slaking-no So, Hariyama IMO, shouldn't be on the same team that Machoke/Medicham is kinda redundent. Blaziken 1-2 shot things anyways Breloom uses mach punch a lot until sky uppercut IMO. Also, it does- Come early, with a good appearance rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I almost forgot to mention: Makuhita is awesome. I deserves all its hype. Vital throw eguals solid early game and hariyama stats eguals solid mid game and late game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yeah, above or below Shroomish? Ima thinking right below, to bottom of top. Hell, it does a number on Brawlys gym trainers, on slateports, and en route to Mauville. It rapes 100% all around. It can take rock tomb for damaging flyers. A guts activated stab move fucks Wattson so badly. Same with Flannery, if that ****ing attract isn't used. It can even take a few hits from Winona, and rock tomb/secret power the ones not called Skarmory. And it dents Skarmory like a bowling ball size hailstone hitting an armoured SUV. Quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Lanturn>Starmie. Starmies nice in compt., but it drains resources harder than fe10 Fiona in HM. And, even if it still has spark, wouldn't we have another pkmn with electric moves that is faster? Like Alakazam/shockwave, Gardevoir/SW or TB, Manectric, Electrode, hell-even Kyogre/Groudon with thunder/TB for Groudon. Even Slaking can make a dent with thunder/TB. Never mind the fact that Lanturn loses speed by a ton to Starmie (which I see as huge, considering that getting Sand-Attacked or seeing them use Double Team, Confuse Ray or whatever before you can move sucks) and has an offence that I'd see as struggling to cut it lategame. Therein lies the problem - having to rely on frigging SPARK lategame means something's wrong. And all of those Pokemon beat Lanturn speedwise and offense wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) The point Planet Earth Sun Galaxy Limits of mortal understanding Rest of the freaking Universe Lightyears worth Free space Star Wars Universe Star Treck Universe Average Manga/Anime logic Yugioh ZeXal Logic Dragon Ball Z Logic Dragon Ball GT Logic People who say FF8 has a good story People Who say FF10 has a good story People who think Transendent WIngs is a good card People who plash BEWD in every deck Twihards Jeigan haters Metal King Slime's head Lanturn can use thunderbolt just as well as Starmie but it don't absolutely have to relie on said extremely highly demanded recourse to do such basic funktions as Being usefull against Wallace/Juan. Also in case you haven't noticed this is ingame. It don't take much of a lv lead to outspeed these scrubs. And if you haven't heard, basepower affects more than you offensive stats to the damage output so Lanturn Actually has pretty damn awesome offence. Oh and you still keep assuming we give Starmie everything it could ever ask to get. Thats like giving all statboosters to Ross. Also in case its not obvious as fuck, we relie on Surf when it comes to offence just like every damn water type. Spark is coverage move in case we want to use thunderbolt on some other pkmn than Starmie/Lanturn (protip: yes we do) Edited February 10, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Pinkie.Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Lanturn can use thunderbolt just as well as Starmie but it don't absolutely have to relie on said extremely highly demanded recourse to do such basic funktions as Being usefull against Wallace/Juan.Also in case you haven't noticed this is ingame. It don't take much of a lv lead to outspeed these scrubs. And if you haven't heard, basepower affects more than you offensive stats to the damage output so Lanturn Actually has pretty damn awesome offence. Oh and you still keep assuming we give Starmie everything it could ever ask to get. Thats like giving all statboosters to Ross. I understand that Lanturn doesn't need Thunderbolt. This from the guy who supposedly doesn't like grinding (assuming you really don't like grinding, which I'm not quite sure about although I think you said something to that effect)? That's what I would call hypocrisy. To be honest, the only thing I'd safely assume Starmie getting is Psychic (since I can't really think of much else that'd like it at that point). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I understand that Lanturn doesn't need Thunderbolt. This from the guy who supposedly doesn't like grinding (assuming you really don't like grinding, which I'm not quite sure about although I think you said something to that effect)? That's what I would call hypocrisy. To be honest, the only thing I'd safely assume Starmie getting is Psychic (since I can't really think of much else that'd like it at that point). A) good B) Lv lead is a thing you get regardless your opinion on grinding unless you specifically skip half the trainers. This is not assumed on this tier list so lv lead exists. (but I still skip them because fuck busywork) C) If Starmie only gets Psyhic (and Surf) we get to the spot where its god awfull against Wallace/Juan/Sydney/IceElite/Drake. With this assumption Lanturn with just Surf and its lv up moves is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Starmie Edited February 10, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Pinkie.Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 C) If Starmie only gets Psyhic (and Surf) we get to the spot where its god awfull against Wallace/Juan/Sydney/IceElite/Drake. For the sake of clarity, why are you saying this? I'd only see that applying to Sidney (and one of the Pokemon he has that resists both can only hit it with a NVE attack). I'm not seeing how Starmie would be awful against Glacia and Drake (unless I'm missing something). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 the thing you are missing is both glacia and drake running very bulky teams. Good SP. A + stab does not replace Super effective moves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Lantern up, starmie down Now, how, about baltoy up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 bad movepool? check. horrid pre-evolution stats and medicore post evolution stats? check. late evolution? check. level of trollness in suggesting baltoy going up? square root of vermin supreme's troll power level's square root. (protip: still OVER 9000!!!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 the thing you are missing is both glacia and drake running very bulky teams. Good SP. A + stab does not replace Super effective moves That's one way to look at it. Also, Glalie's not exactly a good fit for my definition of bulky. And without IB, neither's hitting any of Drake's Pokemon for SE, so yeah. Now, how, about baltoy up? I actually agree with Sho here; Baltoy's stats just aren't that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't see why Chinchou's late evolution matters at all in the 3rd generation. You dive into the water, you catch one of a high enough level (they come at <=30) and it evolves the next level. Clearly, if you are using a Lanturn, you will teach it Thunderbolt; otherwise, why use one in the first place? Its niche is to deal super-effective damage to water-types without worrying about taking any substantial damage back. I also don't like how it's assumed that we overlevel Starmie and it outspeeds everything. What if we don't? It's very likely that Starmie won't be faster than Drake's Salamence (to OHKO with Ice Beam) and die to Crunch, whereas Lanturn doesn't mind being attacked with anything Salamence has (it doesn't have Earthquake). Same applies to facing Sidney's Sharpedo. Starmie is half-psychic, and being psychic-type isn't so terribly good in this generation (unless you are Medicham), when the fighting-type gyms precedes the time you can catch and evolve a Staryu, a poison-type gym is non-existent, and most of E4 has super-effective move against you (two of them specialising in dark and ghost types). Lanturn, on the other hand, comes just in time to face the water-types used by the last gym leader. Also, as far as Shock Wave on a non-electric type goes (like Kadabra), unless we're talking about attacking Gyarados, Psychic will always hit harder. It can be argued that Ralts line's access to Thunderbolt makes it about even with the Abra line in terms of efficiency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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