Hoenn region tier list

[Shadow Mir]

How many of Stevens team members pack EQ, rock slide/tomb/Ancientpower.

Half his team has EQ, and another two have Ancientpower. (Claydol has both)

Zigzagoon doesn't need to learn it, but it is a mediocre option-that could be considered.

Even though 9 times out of 10, you're better off with something else? Besides, "mediocre" is implying Pin Missile's actually useful (except for the part where it's not).

Edited February 8, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[Titamon]

Is this a list for Emerald? I've only played Sapphire/Ruby

Disregard my posts

Edited February 8, 2012 by Mage Lord

[dondon151]

I find Voltorb is better than Magneton on the ocean because it can kill stuff before it gets hit. Sure, Magneton isn't going to die or anything, but it's still annoying getting outsped by stuff like Wingull.

Magneton's base 70 Spe is generally good enough to outspeed most Pokemon that he faces, between being a higher level, having Spe EVs, and possibly having a +Spe nature. The little damage that he does take is not usually threatening, and a significantly higher SpA stat when compared to Electrode means that he scores more OHKOs on Pokemon that aren't weak to electric attacks.

Honestly, the only use for stat up moves is maybe on gym leaders.

Stat up moves (and items) are very useful tools against gym leaders and the league if you don't want to grind, but they are still useful in a variety of trainer battles; specifically, when an opponent has 3+ Pokemon and a stat up move turns your attacks into OHKOs. You save more time and PP that way for your attacking moves.

And don't kid yourself, Ralts or Kirlia are nowhere what anybody should call decent.

I think Kirlia is fine. Its base stats are still poor-ish, yet it's still passable (not gonna lie, but the quality of Hoenn Pokemon is not that great), and it learns 2 great moves in Calm Mind and Psychic at levels 21 and 26, respectively.

[General Horace]

Magneton's base 70 Spe is generally good enough to outspeed most Pokemon that he faces, between being a higher level, having Spe EVs, and possibly having a +Spe nature. The little damage that he does take is not usually threatening, and a significantly higher SpA stat when compared to Electrode means that he scores more OHKOs on Pokemon that aren't weak to electric attacks.

Oh, I wasn't trying to say Electrode > Magneton in any way, although looking back, it might have kinda looked that way. I was just trying to say that it's better than dumbshits like Swablu and Sandshrew.

Stat up moves (and items) are very useful tools against gym leaders and the league if you don't want to grind, but they are still useful in a variety of trainer battles; specifically, when an opponent has 3+ Pokemon and a stat up move turns your attacks into OHKOs. You save more time and PP that way for your attacking moves.

Honestly, third gen trainers were a joke for the most part. There are some occasionally annoying stuff like that one Milotic in the route between Fortree and Lilycove, but the only time that trainer battles aren't won by mashing super effective attack or strong stab move are early on when stat boosting moves don't exist, or victory road, where they're nice to have.

But yeah, those X attacks and X speeds exist for Gym battles. They're cheap and more or less auto win, providing you don't get critted.

I think Kirlia is fine. Its base stats are still poor-ish, yet it's still passable (not gonna lie, but the quality of Hoenn Pokemon is not that great), and it learns 2 great moves in Calm Mind and Psychic at levels 21 and 26, respectively.

It's movepool is pretty solid, but IMO, i'd rather just have Kadabra blast something with Psybeam during midgame, and I find Psychics are kinda useless later on, as they are entirely useless against Sidney, Pheobe, and Steven, whilst much better options exist for the rest.

Once Gardevoir exists, there isn't much use for Psychic types anyway. I suppose it could drop thunderbolts on Winona, but Magneton can do that.

Edited February 8, 2012 by General Horace

[Shadow Mir]

It's movepool is pretty solid, but IMO, i'd rather just have Kadabra blast something with Psybeam during midgame, and I find Psychics are kinda useless later on, as they are entirely useless against Sidney, Pheobe, and Steven, whilst much better options exist for the rest.

Once Gardevoir exists, there isn't much use for Psychic types anyway. I suppose it could drop thunderbolts on Winona, but Magneton can do that.

For what it's worth, having Gardevoir use Imprison (prevents use of any moves the user knows) on Tate and Liza screws them over, pretty much. Without being able to use Calm Mind and Psychic, they're not that tough. (Also, I'm talking about Emerald Tate & Liza for obvious reasons.)

[MacLovin]

Half his team has EQ, and another two have Ancientpower. (Claydol has both)

Even though 9 times out of 10, you're better off with something else? Besides, "mediocre" is implying Pin Missile's actually useful (except for the part where it's not).

The route up to the 6th gym has a crapton of grassers.

And, pin missle hits multiple times.

And, you can catch lvl 25 Zigzagoons.

Yeah, it may not be much, but ingame trainers kinda suck.

I'd still consider Zigzagoon rising, due to decent movepool, decent stats, being a good HM slave, pickup being useful, availibility, and learning headbutt early on for a decent stab movre for early-mid game.

Swablu could switch places with Voltorb.

Sandshrew....IDK.

Levels fast, gets slash/rock tomb/dig/BB/AA/EQ, can do def.curl+rollout, and evolves fast.

Needs TMs, and needs eq to do well later on.

Thoughts?

Edited February 8, 2012 by The Creeper

[Shadow Mir]

The route up to the 6th gym has a crapton of grassers.

And, pin missle hits multiple times.

And, you can catch lvl 25 Zigzagoons.

Yeah, it may not be much, but ingame trainers kinda suck.

I'd still consider Zigzagoon rising, due to decent movepool, decent stats, being a good HM slave, pickup being useful, availibility, and learning headbutt early on for a decent stab movre for early-mid game.

Too bad that the Grass types used by the trainers (and wild Grass types) there have secondary types that resist Bug. Also, Pin Missile's unreliable, not just in attacking, but it might even miss. Bleck. Give me STAB Strength over Pin Missile any day.

[MacLovin]

If we're training Linoone, why make it an HM slave?.

Strngth is nice

But.

Secret Power/slash exists

[Shadow Mir]

If we're training Linoone, why make it an HM slave?.

Strngth is nice

But.

Secret Power/slash exists

Way to completely dodge the point of what I was saying. I mentioned Strength because it is the highest power Normal move you have at that point (I don't know if you can get a Return TM before Pacifidlog Town).

[MacLovin]

Deliver meteoritw to prof cosmo in fallarbor.

Get 1 return.

Also, Linoone can use blizzard/fireblast/thunder for w/e its worth.

Also, is iron tail acceptable?

It might help.

[Shadow Mir]

Deliver meteoritw to prof cosmo in fallarbor.

Get 1 return.

Also, Linoone can use blizzard/fireblast/thunder for w/e its worth.

Also, is iron tail acceptable?

It might help.

Oh. Right. Well, in that case... If you've had it with you since the beginning of the game, I suppose its happiness would be nearing max at that point.

But I am not expecting much when they're coming off 50 base sp. atk. And that's not even getting into the reliability and PP issues those moves have. Also, Linoone can't learn Fire Blast.

On Iron Tail: You can't get it until after you can use Waterfall, I'm sure.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

Iron tail-

Casino TM.

Its cheaper than the other casino TMs.

Also, 50 sp attack, and use of blizzard/thunder is enough to dent some things, like Vic Road Rock/water/flying/Dark/Grass types.

But, its kinda situational on Linoone....but it is an option.

Also, belly drum Linoone should be useable.

[Shadow Mir]

Game Corner TM? Ugh.

On Belly Drum Linoone: No. Belly Drum doesn't come until level 53, and by then, you're probably battling the E4.

Also, 50 sp attack, and use of blizzard/thunder is enough to dent some things, like Vic Road Rock/water/flying/Dark/Grass types.

Doesn't make it any less stupid, if you ask me. Especially since 70 accuracy, in my book, is pushing it.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

Still, its an option.

Also, what about switching Treecko with Makuhita/Shroomish.

Treeckos a good grass type, but its movepool is shallow, and its only good move for awhile is leaf blade.

Maybe pursuit/screech/QA/hp special/secret power/rock tomb could work too.

Dragon claw comes late, but is alright on it.

Methinks Shoroomish/Makuhita should rise above it.

Shroomish has Roxanne+bullet seed.

And can powder+leech seed stall brawlys gym.

And does well against the 2 rock using trainers on the way to the whismur cave.

And in slateport beach.

And is bulky enough not to get 1hkoed by flying/bug/poison/fire type attacks.

And Breloom gets mach punch, sky uppercut, sludge bomb, rock tomb, I think eq, hidden power phys, leech seed, and return.

Makuhita hits hard, doesn't die easily, and is a good user of bulk up+Arm Thrust/a good stab move+rock tomb (shaky acc., but its still a half decent idea)+Eq(if you want)

I could swear it learned cross chop naturally...

Oh, and it gets whirlwind to fuck around with gym/e4.

Its like Machoke, without trading evo/karate chop/low kick

And comes earlier, and still quite good imo.

Oh, and belly drum is nice, and so is body slam.

And several e4 members like status effects-as do some gym leaders.

Phoebe-will o wisp

Steven-fuck this guy, toxic, sludge bomb, etc, etc.

Wallace-fuck him too, he uses them too.

Juan- idk about him, but I think he does.

Winona- I think she has t-wave.

Wattson-t-wave, and makuhita with guts and stab moves destroy him.

Tate and liza-

Idk here, I just rofl stomp them asap with Pedo/Gardy/shadow ball user/swampert,

Oh, and random trainers like to use status effects too.

Also, any thoughts on Tentacool/Magikarp rising a little?

[Shadow Mir]

Still, its an option.

Also, what about switching Treecko with Makuhita/Shroomish.

Treeckos a good grass type, but its movepool is shallow, and its only good move for awhile is leaf blade.

Maybe pursuit/screech/QA/hp special/secret power/rock tomb could work too.

Dragon claw comes late, but is alright on it.

Methinks Shoroomish/Makuhita should rise above it.

Doesn't mean it's a good - or smart - one.

On Treecko: I think Shroomish can go above it, but I'm still not sold on Makuhita.

Shroomish has Roxanne+bullet seed.

And can powder+leech seed stall brawlys gym.

And does well against the 2 rock using trainers on the way to the whismur cave.

And in slateport beach.

And is bulky enough not to get 1hkoed by flying/bug/poison/fire type attacks.

And Breloom gets mach punch, sky uppercut, sludge bomb, rock tomb, I think eq, hidden power phys, leech seed, and return.

I can agree with most of this. But I fail to see Sludge Bomb as a good option since, well, Poison's a godawful offensive type.

Makuhita hits hard, doesn't die easily, and is a good user of bulk up+Arm Thrust/a good stab move+rock tomb (shaky acc., but its still a half decent idea)+Eq(if you want)

I could swear it learned cross chop naturally...

Oh, and it gets whirlwind to fuck around with gym/e4.

Its like Machoke, without trading evo/karate chop/low kick

And comes earlier, and still quite good imo.

Oh, and belly drum is nice, and so is body slam.

And several e4 members like status effects-as do some gym leaders.

Phoebe-will o wisp

Steven-fuck this guy, toxic, sludge bomb, etc, etc.

Wallace-fuck him too, he uses them too.

Juan- idk about him, but I think he does.

Winona- I think she has t-wave.

Wattson-t-wave, and makuhita with guts and stab moves destroy him.

Tate and liza-

Idk here, I just rofl stomp them asap with Pedo/Gardy/shadow ball user/swampert,

Oh, and random trainers like to use status effects too.

Sorry, but high HP can only do so much to compensate for being lackluster defensively. And again, lolarmthrust. You might as well stick to Vital Throw (hint: Arm Thrust has to hit 5 times to BARELY beat out Vital Throw); Hariyama's slow anyhow, so it's not as if the decreased priority matters much. Also, Phoebe... and Hariyama... I wonder what about this JDLR to me. (Read: Hariyama has no business whatsoever against Phoebe.) WRT Winona: You're kidding, right? Everyone of her Pokemon is faster than you and will be more than happy to AA the crap out of you until you die.

Also, any thoughts on Tentacool/Magikarp rising a little?

Can't say on Magikarp, but I'm against Tentacool rising; have you even tried to raise a low level Tentacool? It sucks. You might as well switchgrind or Exp. Share it until it gets a REAL attack (Poison Sting and Constrict don't qualify), which, sadly, isn't until level 25. Ugh.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[MacLovin]

Hariyama could rise a bit, to be right under Treecko IMO.

I've tried tentacool before, and you're right.

Also, who else is gonna use sludge bomb?

Crobats hard to raise.

Muk and Swalot learn it through lvl up.

Tentacruels hard to raise

Vileplume/bellosom with it is mediocre.

Weezing is alright

Torkoal shouldn't need it.

Anything else is lol.

Breloom could use it, but toxic/poison powder would be just as good.

Since poison as an offensive type is lol.

Breloom up.

Also, Horsea could rise, Seadra is fast, has good sp attack.

It could rise a little.

Surf/ice beam/maybe hydro pump?/ and I think it gets sludge bomb and alright attack against grassers.

(I see ludicoloes/cacturnes/shiftrys in v road a bit.

[Frosty]

IIRC, Horsea is found via fishing at Pacifidlog Town and the sea routes near it... Didn't really bothered with Horsea, since you're stuck as a Seadra forever.

Anyways, I have raised a Tentacool before, but I prefer catching ones that are LV20-25 so I won't be dealing with a lulzy moveset. Oh and mine uses Surf/Ice Beam or Blizzard/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb in terms of final moveset.

P.S Eat Sludge Bomb Cacturne!

Edited February 9, 2012 by Le Ultimate Failure

[Shadow Mir]

Hariyama could rise a bit, to be right under Treecko IMO.

I've tried tentacool before, and you're right.

Also, who else is gonna use sludge bomb?

Crobats hard to raise.

Muk and Swalot learn it through lvl up.

Tentacruels hard to raise

Vileplume/bellosom with it is mediocre.

Weezing is alright

Torkoal shouldn't need it.

Anything else is lol.

Breloom could use it, but toxic/poison powder would be just as good.

Since poison as an offensive type is lol.

Breloom up.

Also, Horsea could rise, Seadra is fast, has good sp attack.

It could rise a little.

Surf/ice beam/maybe hydro pump?/ and I think it gets sludge bomb and alright attack against grassers.

(I see ludicoloes/cacturnes/shiftrys in v road a bit.

IMO, your arguments for Hariyama have failed to impress me, so I'm not sold.

On Horsea: I dunno. Also, I'm not really sure about if Sludge Bomb would be good on Seadra since Ice Beam gets all it does and more (and runs off Seadra's better Sp. Atk to boot).

EDIT: What'll you do with the fossil Pokemon? It seems they're not even tiered at all.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[Frosty]

Uhmm... I just checked the TM's learned by Seadra, but it seems it doesn't learn Sludge Bomb, nor Kingdra does.

Correct me if I'm wrong, just in case since I haven't used a Horsea myself since Gen II despite of my liking to the Water-types.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Le Ultimate Failure

[Shadow Mir]

Uhmm... I just checked the TM's learned by Seadra, but it seems it doesn't learn Sludge Bomb, nor Kingdra does.

Correct me if I'm wrong, just in case since I haven't used a Horsea myself since Gen II despite of my liking to the Water-types.

Okay.

[MacLovin]

I thought it learned it$

Must've been thinking of something else.

[X-Naut]

Hariyama could rise a bit, to be right under Treecko IMO.

Treecko could fall a bit for reasons that have already been addressed.

I've tried tentacool before, and you're right.

Also, who else is gonna use sludge bomb?

Poison-types that don't learn it by level-up.

Crobats hard to raise.

Muk and Swalot learn it through lvl up.

Tentacruels hard to raise

Vileplume/bellosom with it is mediocre.

Weezing is alright

Bellossom sucks with it because it doesn't get STAB. All the other ones are okay.

Torkoal shouldn't need it.

Anything else is lol.

Breloom could use it, but toxic/poison powder would be just as good.

Breloom shouldn't be using those moves beyond mid-game anyway when there are bulkier candidates out there.

Since poison as an offensive type is lol.

Poison resistors aren't that common outside of Hikers, Team Magma/Aqua, Ninjas, and Hex Maniacs. And the latter two are a rare trainer class.

Breloom up.

I'd even argue it could go above Treecko because Treecko denies you of Torchic or Mudkip.

Also, Horsea could rise, Seadra is fast, has good sp attack.

It could rise a little.

Surf/ice beam/maybe hydro pump?/ and I think it gets sludge bomb and alright attack against grassers.

(I see ludicoloes/cacturnes/shiftrys in v road a bit.

But it has poor durability, less Speed, and isn't as easily obtained as Sharpedo. It could go over Nosepass and Wurmple, though.

[MacLovin]

Treeckos top of high., just below Makuhita.

the fossils are added, and dropped some, raisied some.

Also, Cacturne raising?

Needle arm is nice.

Ingrain+leech seed is nice.

Spikes is too.

Faint attack isn't horrible

BB/rock tomb/secret power/return come off a decent attack stat.

It gets several powder moves.

Along with cotton spore and growth.

It might get to mid, lower part of mid IMO.

and what about Magnemite dropping a few spaces.

It only has T-bolt for stab.

And, confuse ray/supersonic, t-wave, and hp special (if you're lucky).

Are the only other decent options.

So, it should drop a little IMO, maybe Treecko could drop further too IMO.

Machop could drop IMO.

It comes at an alright time, but machoke is slow, and doesn't even have the high HP cushion Hariyama has.

And, even though it gets nice stab moves, and has bulk up, I can't think of any other good moves.

EQ is contested for.

Rock tomb may be nice.

Hp physical?

Return/secret power could work.

It has access to fire blast for some reason...

Focus punch/dynamic punch?

Idk anything else

Edited February 10, 2012 by The Creeper

[dondon151]

I'm a little surprised that Zubat isn't higher than it is. It's not amazing by any means, but it's a generally solid Pokemon with a workable movepool. Steel Wing comes early, Sludge Bomb doesn't come too late and is not generally contested, and Wing Attack is an early STAB with lots of PP. Golbat has generally good stats for a relatively early evolution and Crobat is just good all around.

Actually I think it's pretty comparable to Taillow, minus the significantly worse start. You probably don't want a Zubat from the get-go until you either have Steel Wing or can catch one with Bite. Poison STAB isn't quite as good as normal STAB either (IIRC Return comes earlier than Sludge Bomb and is slightly more powerful) but Crobat has better coverage options in Shadow Ball and Giga Drain.

Edited February 10, 2012 by dondon151

[MacLovin]

I love Zubat, but its start is rocky, and steel wing has compt in the form of Tailow.

Yeah rise to where, I love that little thing.

Also, it can take some of brawlys gym trainers.

Btw, Crobat has nice stats and a nice movepool.

Wing attack/AA/air cutter

Steel Wing

Shadow Ball

Return/Secret Power

Hp physical

Maybe giga drain

Bite for early on

Confuse ray

Poison fang/SB

Mean look

It does a number on tate/liza with SB and SW.

Fares well against Sidney and Phoebe.

Might be useful against Stevens fossils and claydol.

Wallace/Juan have some pokemon that Crobat 1-2-3HKOes.

And it can outrun everything.

Rise to

Bottom of high?

Also, how about Heracross/Pinser rising a little.

they're nice to have, and

Pinser has.

SD

EQ

Return/SP

HP physical

BB

And decent speed/attack.

Heracross gets

BB

Reversal

Counter

EQ

Bulk Up

Return/SP

Megahorn

HP physical.

And has good speed/attack.

As for some others.

How about Pikachu->Raichu rising.

Natural TB and T-wave.

And, Raichu can use QA/BB/return/SP/iron tail.

also, what about Chinchou rising.

It comes before Wallace/Juan

Is more common than Staryu

And, Juan/Wallaces trainers all have easy water types.

And, its only problems are EQ users and maybe a strong grasser.

It can fuck Wallace/Juan and do a number on Glacia/Drake and cream the ocean.

Stabe TB/Thunder, Surf, ice beam, T-wave, confuse ray, and HP special is nice.

Its like a Staryu that sacrifices psychic and speed for bulk and electric stab.