MacLovin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Cosmic power Calm mind Psychic Ice beam EQ Ancient power Yeah, horrible movepool..... Also, levitate kinda screws Steven and EQ spam. Also, its bulky and can do physical or special sets. IMO, it should rise a little-mid of mid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Cosmic power Comes late Calm mind Highly contested TM Psychic Even with STAB, you could not have put it on a worse offensive pokemon. Banette at least has speed. Ice beam The dragonslayer ability and you give it to a mon with piss weak offense? EQ In your dreams. Ancient power Should I be impressed it has a 5 PP move that has the power of Swift with it's offense? Yeah, horrible movepool..... Fine, horrible COMPETITION for it's movepool. Also, levitate kinda screws Steven and EQ spam. What the hell does it even do in return? Besides, Steven can do things other than Earthquake. Also, its bulky and can do physical or special sets. And suck at both. Besides, how bulky can it really be with it's typing? It's resistant to Rock, Psychic and Fighting (ya know, common stuff *sarcasm* ), and weak to Grass, Water, Dark, Bug, Ghost, and Ice, one of which is really common, 1 is a gym, and 4 are involved in the Elite 4. Bulky my ass. IMO, it should rise a little-mid of mid? How about no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Cosmic power laaaaaaaaaaaaaaate Calm mind Does not learn Psychic Gardvoir does bulky psyhic better Ice beam on the matter of highly demanded by everything type of TMs... EQ on the matter of ridiculously fucking demanded by everything type pf TMs Ancient power 5 uses, 10 activation rate, unstabbed medicore BP with unimpressive atk = cool story bromeo Yeah, horrible movepool.....Absolute garbage Also, levitate kinda screws Steven and EQ spam. omg thats totally a reason to waste half the game with this sucker Also, its bulky and can do physical or special sets. its ingame dude, mixed or gtfo IMO, it should rise a little-mid of mid? it should drop if anything. now go move gulpin over poison duo keep going kid. someday you might reach troll level kitaniji Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) keep going kid. someday you might reach troll level kitaniji What exactly is your expectation of a good movepool? I'd think that EQ, Psychic, IB, Explosion make for a satisfyingly diverse movepool (although highly contested). Claydol's problem is not that it doesn't have diverse moves; it's that its offensive moves come late and its offensive prowess to write home about. But really, passable dual STABs and IB for coverage is actually -pretty good-. I also don't like how it's assumed that we overlevel Starmie and it outspeeds everything. What if we don't? Why wouldn't we? Hey, let's just sandbag Pokemon just because we think they're too good! Hey, what if we don't overlevel Taillow? Wouldn't that blow? The fact is that Starmie is an elite Pokemon when it's around. Its type coverage is unparalleled - so what if it requires Thunderbolt and Ice Beam? You get one each for free; using Ice Beam on any water type Pokemon necessarily carries the opportunity cost of using it on another water type Pokemon, and most Pokemon that require Thunderbolt are electric types with absolutely no type coverage to speak of. It's fast enough to outspeed most opponent Pokemon in the game even with a level disadvantage, and it can take a hit while you throw in an X Special to prepare for a full sweep. If you're honestly not going to use Starmie to its full potential, then you may as well just not use it at all. It's kind of like not giving your Speedwings to Haar or Titania, but to a more severe extent, because Starmie without type coverage is just another run of the mill standard water type Pokemon. By the way I really disagree with most of the logic being thrown around in this thread. Offensive power is paramount in in-game runs and should take precedence over defensive capabilities whenever possible. You save yourself a lot of trouble by KOing opponent Pokemon in 1 attack without giving them an opportunity to do damage. Furthermore, Pokemon like Starmie with huge type coverage rarely require visits to the Pokemon Center because it has about 40 PP total (50 if you give it Psychic instead of Recover) and should be OHKOing a variety of opponent Pokemon. By contrast, Pokemon like Lanturn and Claydol are not particularly fast and do not pack much power behind their attacks unless they're STAB and super effective. The only exception to this rule is when you need to stat up using X items, but even then you only need enough defensive capability to endure a single attack, and then ideally you're poised to sweep. Also, as far as Shock Wave on a non-electric type goes (like Kadabra), unless we're talking about attacking Gyarados, Psychic will always hit harder. It can be argued that Ralts line's access to Thunderbolt makes it about even with the Abra line in terms of efficiency. Psychic only has 10 PP. Edited February 10, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 What exactly is your expectation of a good movepool? I'd think that EQ, Psychic, IB, Explosion make for a satisfyingly diverse movepool (although highly contested). Claydol's problem is not that it doesn't have diverse moves; it's that its offensive moves come late and its offensive prowess to write home about. But really, passable dual STABs and IB for coverage is actually -pretty good-. my stantards have this thing called reasonable movepool. for example EQ is so much wanted that Claydol is not realistically getting it. I think its like giving speedwings to Aran. Its not happening because Haar titania and other exist. Why wouldn't we? Hey, let's just sandbag Pokemon just because we think they're too good! Hey, what if we don't overlevel Taillow? Wouldn't that blow?The fact is that Starmie is an elite Pokemon when it's around. Its type coverage is unparalleled - so what if it requires Thunderbolt and Ice Beam? You get one each for free; using Ice Beam on any water type Pokemon necessarily carries the opportunity cost of using it on another water type Pokemon, and most Pokemon that require Thunderbolt are electric types with absolutely no type coverage to speak of. It's fast enough to outspeed most opponent Pokemon in the game even with a level disadvantage, and it can take a hit while you throw in an X Special to prepare for a full sweep. the thing is, just because starmie gives huge outcome it still needs to pay oportunity costs higher than just about any reasonable pkmn. If you're honestly not going to use Starmie to its full potential, then you may as well just not use it at all. It's kind of like not giving your Speedwings to Haar or Titania, but to a more severe extent, because Starmie without type coverage is just another run of the mill standard water type Pokemon. nobody uses it without the resourses it needs. that much is clear. Different story is if its worth it. By the way I really disagree with most of the logic being thrown around in this thread. Offensive power is paramount in in-game runs and should take precedence over defensive capabilities whenever possible. You save yourself a lot of trouble by KOing opponent Pokemon in 1 attack without giving them an opportunity to do damage. Furthermore, Pokemon like Starmie with huge type coverage rarely require visits to the Pokemon Center because it has about 40 PP total (50 if you give it Psychic instead of Recover) and should be OHKOing a variety of opponent Pokemon. By contrast, Pokemon like Lanturn and Claydol are not particularly fast and do not pack much power behind their attacks unless they're STAB and super effective. The only exception to this rule is when you need to stat up using X items, but even then you only need enough defensive capability to endure a single attack, and then ideally you're poised to sweep. one beatifull day shall come opponent that you can't just run over with huge offence. Meanwhile healing items are as cheap as it gets so taking few hits is not issue in the slightest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 ...... What was I thinking. When I'm able too, Gulpin will go right over the poison duo. And, Chinchou>Staryu also. And Zubat up. And, maybe Voltorb up. How about sharpedo/maril up, being the next best waters aside from Mudkip, they could rise a little. Also, Marill is a little bulky. Speaking of type coverage, how bout Shiftry rising. Shadow ball Faint attack Giga drain AA Sunnybeam+chlorophyll ability Secret power/return BB And, decent speed and att/sp attack stats and HP cushion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Why wouldn't we? Hey, let's just sandbag Pokemon just because we think they're too good! Hey, what if we don't overlevel Taillow? Wouldn't that blow? ... If you're honestly not going to use Starmie to its full potential, then you may as well just not use it at all. It's kind of like not giving your Speedwings to Haar or Titania, but to a more severe extent, because Starmie without type coverage is just another run of the mill standard water type Pokemon. I believe an appeal to Fire Emblem is unfair to some extent, as Haar and Titania are essentially unparalleled and irreplaceable in Radiant Dawn, in that nobody can perform the same functions equally well. You also don't have to go out of your way to make them usable, but you actually need to catch a Staryu, get the right shard and trade it for the right stone, train it until it catches up with the trainers and feed all sorts of TMs to it. You needn't catch Haar or Titania in any metaphorical way (though you can ignore Haar in 2-P, but you're screwing yourself over if you do). If you're not planning to use Starmie, it just means you're using something else. A choice against Haar and Titania is not a poor choice only when it comes to taking them to Endgame (and they'd do just great there too). Your argument would make much sense if you stated directly that not training a Starmie is unreasonable (a statement I wouldn't have any problem with), but I'm not sure if you're implying it or not. One could have a different motivation for training a Starmie. Like you said, somebody just might want a solid water-type and Starmie fits the bill with high speed and special attack. Somebody might want their weaknesses covered. These are just two possible reasons to catch a Staryu and they don't necessarily involve putting all of the battle experience into the starfish Pokemon. The fact is that Starmie is an elite Pokemon when it's around. Its type coverage is unparalleled - so what if it requires Thunderbolt and Ice Beam? You get one each for free; using Ice Beam on any water type Pokemon necessarily carries the opportunity cost of using it on another water type Pokemon, and most Pokemon that require Thunderbolt are electric types with absolutely no type coverage to speak of. It's fast enough to outspeed most opponent Pokemon in the game even with a level disadvantage, and it can take a hit while you throw in an X Special to prepare for a full sweep. Raichu gets Brick Break, Dig and Iron Tail, which is superior to what other electric-types get, but clearly pales in comparison to Starmie's TM movepool. Fully agreed otherwise. By the way I really disagree with most of the logic being thrown around in this thread. Offensive power is paramount in in-game runs and should take precedence over defensive capabilities whenever possible. You save yourself a lot of trouble by KOing opponent Pokemon in 1 attack without giving them an opportunity to do damage. Furthermore, Pokemon like Starmie with huge type coverage rarely require visits to the Pokemon Center because it has about 40 PP total (50 if you give it Psychic instead of Recover) and should be OHKOing a variety of opponent Pokemon. By contrast, Pokemon like Lanturn and Claydol are not particularly fast and do not pack much power behind their attacks unless they're STAB and super effective. The only exception to this rule is when you need to stat up using X items, but even then you only need enough defensive capability to endure a single attack, and then ideally you're poised to sweep. I agree that speed and offence take precedence over defensive abilities, but Pokemon play different roles. You may want to use Blaziken as your sweeper of choice and Starmie simply as a supplementary Pokemon to cover his weaknesses, or it could be the other way around. In the event Starmie is just there as somebody who takes out the problematic dragons with Ice Beam, not fed enough experience to outspeed the speedy, high-levelled Flygon and Salamence, you might as well train a bulkier Pokemon over whom Starmie wouldn't have an advantage at a level where both fail to outspeed higher-levelled quick hitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 my stantards have this thing called reasonable movepool. for example EQ is so much wanted that Claydol is not realistically getting it. I think its like giving speedwings to Aran. Its not happening because Haar titania and other exist. If you're going to use Claydol (and presumably no other ground type Pokemon), you don't really have a reason to not use Earthquake on him, hm? the thing is, just because starmie gives huge outcome it still needs to pay oportunity costs higher than just about any reasonable pkmn. No it doesn't. How many Pokemon naturally learn Thunderbolt or Ice Beam? one beatifull day shall come opponent that you can't just run over with huge offence. Meanwhile healing items are as cheap as it gets so taking few hits is not issue in the slightest There is not a single opponent in the game that cannot be steamrolled by huge offense. If you can't OHKO, use an X item. If you can't outspeed, use an X item. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you're going to use Claydol (and presumably no other ground type Pokemon), you don't really have a reason to not use Earthquake on him, hm? because many many MANY non gorund types find good use for it? Because even if claudol is your only ground he is still poor choise for it? Actually no thats not it. Why would you use claudol when he fails so bad you need to take important coverage move from your makuhita etc. just to make it have at least medicore stab. No it doesn't. How many Pokemon naturally learn Thunderbolt or Ice Beam? not too many. BUT most useable ones have this thing called reasonable movepool not including the TMs that can be used by just about everything. Starmie is poor option because it takes so many so contested recourses. For a very bad example I would rather take Gardevoir with Thunderbolt and Lanturn with Spark and Ice Beam than Gardevoir with Shock Wave and Starmie with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. There is not a single opponent in the game that cannot be steamrolled by huge offense. If you can't OHKO, use an X item. If you can't outspeed, use an X item. Simple as that. There is not a single not Walrein pkmn in this game that can't be steamrolled by huge bulk and wearing them down. If you can't block long enough use Healing Item or X Item. If you need to make it happen quicker for some weird reason use X Item. Simple as that. At the end of the day there is little to no difference in OHKOing and outspeeding and taking little chip and 2-3OHKOing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 There is not a single not Walrein pkmn in this game that can't be steamrolled by huge bulk and wearing them down. If you can't block long enough use Healing Item or X Item. If you need to make it happen quicker for some weird reason use X Item. Simple as that. At the end of the day there is little to no difference in OHKOing and outspeeding and taking little chip and 2-3OHKOing. No, there is actually a huge difference. Trying to chip away at opponents is much slower than just defeating them outright. Furthermore, the reliance on healing items and defensive X items does put a strain in the money supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Its not that much slower when we watch the general bulkyness of opponents... (its bad) And lol money issues in pkmn do not exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I still think Electrike should move up. If you catch a Manectric on Route 118, you skip his earlygame suck and he does great against Winona, Team Aqua, the ocean, the 8th gym, Glacia, and Wallace. He also performs well against neutral opponents as well if he gets Thunderbolt (even if the New Mauville TM for it isn't available for some reason, you can buy another one in the game corner for 80,000 Poke-dollars). That's a lot better than what anyone in mid's doing really, and probably better than a good chunk of upper mid too. For starters, I definitely see him above Seviper. Seviper's stats are pretty poor besides his attack and special attack (which is a crappy combination when you have nothing else backing it up), poison is a mediocre type, and his level-up moves are mostly poor so he'll be reliant on TMs to get anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I still think Electrike should move up. If you catch a Manectric on Route 118, you skip his earlygame suck and he does great against Winona, Team Aqua, the ocean, the 8th gym, Glacia, and Wallace. He also performs well against neutral opponents as well if he gets Thunderbolt (even if the New Mauville TM for it isn't available for some reason, you can buy another one in the game corner for 80,000 Poke-dollars). That's a lot better than what anyone in mid's doing really, and probably better than a good chunk of upper mid too. For starters, I definitely see him above Seviper. Seviper's stats are pretty poor besides his attack and special attack (which is a crappy combination when you have nothing else backing it up), poison is a mediocre type, and his level-up moves are mostly poor so he'll be reliant on TMs to get anywhere. Yeah, I think Seviper needs to drop. What's it doing in upper mid anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 lol this is the second time I've tried to argue Electrike up and the second time the Pokemon I compared him to plummeted instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 lol this is the second time I've tried to argue Electrike up and the second time the Pokemon I compared him to plummeted instead. Electrikes good, but could be be in *gasp* High? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciarre Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Sableye above Bagon, please. And no way Lileep is > Sableye. Also, where's Silcoon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 sableye...... Someone come up with reasoning other than equalling Jeigan. And psychic/fighting/normal immunity. When, later on, its stats take a nosedive. How about bottom of upper mid? Also, Cacturne up IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciarre Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Sableye's still better than the other scrubs in its tier. Just send him to top of low. And add in Silcoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Silcoon is wurmple. Where should Silcoon go? Seeing that Beautifly is useable later on, giga drain/morning sun/shadow ball/silver wind. Only problem is fraility IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Electrikes good, but could be be in *gasp* High? I think he could. It's just that I suck at debating and decided to aim low. But since you said that, I'll give it a shot. Electrike (the route 118 Manectric version) is pretty similar to Carvanha and Zangoose, who are near the bottom of High. All three of them have similar availability and are on the frail side, but tear up certain parts of the game. Carvanha destroys the psychic twins, Phoebe, and Team Magma, and can beat Winona and Drake too if he gets an ice attack. Zangoose destroys Phoebe and helps against the twins if he gets Shadow Ball, and can Swords Dance his way to victory in other scenarios. Manectric beats the huge amount of water Pokemon (which is especially important in Emerald, with Wallace being the champ) and he destroys most of Winona's gym. On the other side of the spectrum, we have Wingull, Tropius, and Ralts, who are at the top of Upper Mid. Wingull has good availability and coverage, but his stats are poor so he's never doing anything too impressive outside of Protect against Norman's Slaking(s). Tropius is a good HM slaves, but in battle he's slow, can't hit hard, and isn't even that bulky. Ralts's final form, Gardevoir, might be a bit better than Manectric, but Manectric can skip his earlygame suck while Ralts has to suffer through his poor first form and his still mediocre second form. Electrike/Manectric might not be quite as good as Carvanha or Zangoose, but he's better than most Upper Mid, so putting Electrike at the bottom of High tier seems reasonable. Edited February 11, 2012 by OrangeCrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Electrike in High? WTF IS THIS ****!? I assume we catch as Manetrick because Electrike brings nothing to the table. Spark/Thunderbolt is undenieably good moves for stab and come oout of high Spa. The way to Winona is infested with grass types and ground types Nincadas. Then again it also has many Flying types and team agua so I let it slide. He still is situational here thou. The first major battle it has is agains Brendan/May who it does poorly against. Only okmn that it can reasonably battle here are Wailmer, Pelipper, slugma and maybe combusken. for example if we picked torchik, It is completely walled in S/R. Then we reach to Winona that it is winning allright. on the way to lillycove it still is situational but amount of resisters isn't as big anymore. We then reach mt. pyre where its ok and (mostly) agua hideout of awesometime and ocean. MEdicority says hi against twins, water gym is aweomesauce, agua grunts too. then its elite 4 time and we are unimpressive against sydney and bad against drake. Situational/bad against steven, medicore vs. phoebe and good against wallace and glacia. All in all I wouldn't let him to same tier as magnemite who takes much more beating and has better offence. Uppermid is more reasonable he's better than most Upper Mid, so putting Electrike at the bottom of High tier seems reasonable. this logic is simply horrid. If true it gives reason to be positioned in the middle of upper mid, not bottom of high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Tailow/Swellow seems too high. I mean, seriously, what weaknesses does it hit outside of Brawly's gym? None. Its powerful, I'll give it that, but its pretty frail too. It loses to Wattson, its pretty bad in Flannery's gym because of bad SP.Def, is mediocre in Norman's gym, fine in Winona's gym, horrible in the twins' gym and ok in Cuan's gym. Then the Elite four, where it continues to be bad(well it can nab the cacturne in the first elite four). Also you should realise there aren't many fighting types out there, nor the pesky bug types which are weak to begin with. Well there are a few grass types at the start, but past Mauvile they dwindle in number. I'd like to ask the same thing about Zigzagoon. Its just another HM slave. If we are considering HM usefulness, then I guess their placement is right. It feels a bit off though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Manectric has one thing Magneton lacks - speed. It has a solid special attack and a solid speed, allowing it to OHKO things with Thunderbolt (even ones that aren't weak to it). If you're slow, you're susceptible to negative status effects, accuracy drops, confusion etc., and have a greater risk to eat critical hits since you take more attacks in general. An electric typing isn't nearly as good as it is in Kanto, but it's nevertheless a highly useful one, especially if you're playing Emerald. Zigzagoon provides not only HM utility but also valuable items, especially if you keep 2-3 of them in the party from the very start of the game. Nuggets for money, Rare Candies for levelling, stat boosters, Ultra Balls (get one and you can catch a Skarmory far easier). This is why it's probably a very good idea to keep him in a tier above Tropius and Tentacool. Taillow dominates earlygame and is probably the best choice for Brawley, better than Wingull anyway. Later on, it can function nicely with Facade if it's poisoned which isn't too hard to prepare. Top Tier is too good for it, but High Tier seems fitting. Shroomish has a slow start where it relies on leeching health and statuses to survive and deal damage. Once it evolves, it is a little too slow still, and its grass-type attacks are weak. Breloom is still great for all those Mightyenas and Sharpedos you face in such numbers, but training it early is a pain in the arse. Makuhita doesn't deserve a spot that high due to its speed, I would argue, even though the traded one grows at a very fast pace. Being a fighting-type is good in this game, however. Zangoose needs to go up due to its instantaneous sweeping capabilities and high attack/speed. Marill, on the other hand, doesn't deserve all the trouble of being trained, not even with Huge Power. Medicham, on the other hand, is THE Huge/Pure Power user you should care for in this game (Brick Break and Shadow Ball give perfect coverage, and it's faster than Breloom to be able to sweep with a Bulk Up set), but for some reason I don't see him anywhere in the list at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Makuhita doesn't deserve a spot that high due to its speed, I would argue, even though the traded one grows at a very fast pace. Being a fighting-type is good in this game, however. That's what I tried to argue against it. Didn't seem to work. Also, there's an in-game trade for a Makuhita? Because I can't say I remember one. Edited February 11, 2012 by Metal King Slime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) 1) As a matter of fact the area from 5th to just about doors of lillycove are swarming with grass and bug types... 2) Taillow comes at the very beginning of game with respectable offence. Once it hits lv 13 its gets wing attack and starts majorly kick ass. Its good offence and speed keep it going for long time and at dewford it can nab that steel wing for ok coverage. Once we beat team w/e on the volcano it gets Return for even better stab and has very good power on it as it has been around so long. Sweollow evolution boosts atk even more and we are true force on the field. Just because its not SE all the time it can keep doing very good in every part of the game. This is something only like Mudkip and torchick can say. Zigzagoon is the same story expect replace wing attack lv 13 with lv 9 headbutt, while replacing Steel wings of coverage with Surf of late coverage, Amazing HM slave utility, fabulous ability and Consider Strenght as replacement for return. All in all both come early, have bonertastic offence almost right of the bat (taillow has even it thou because its start is invested with bugs and grass types) and remain very usefull to the very end. You just have to be freaking Starter to top that. EDIT AS for makuhita it has boner for defence so its speed is everything but issue. Marill is like mudkip 0.9 so its simply amasing for any torchik and treeko user EDIT2 Meditite is not on the list because original was copied from emerald ingame tier list and nobody bothered to add it. same goes for many other... Edited February 11, 2012 by Sho.M.the.Pinkie.Pie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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