Just a question about racism.

[Nestling]

allright, nothing too controversial or crop here, just wondering. . .

Has racism turned the tables against the last few decades? Have we been, instead of trying to reach equality, been reverting to racism, but in a completely different way?

Here's what I'm talking about. A few things actually. First, schools. I'm a jazz bass trombonist / vocalist at school, and our jazz band was asked to perform at our Black Student Union's first "talent show" or something. Pretty much, it was about black history and how they have evolved or something. The show was boring and I learned nothing from it, but that's far from the point I'm trying to make.

While there, I was thinking. . . isn't this a little silly? The fact that people are separating themselves based on race, when there was a huge fight not long ago just for equality? I'm not saying that we should disregard the successes that they have achieved, I'm just saying that it's silly how after such a long fight for equality, how we've kinda drifted from that.

I guess the biggest thing is that there was no focus on culture, but rather on race. There is another club at our school called Asian Cultural Exchange. This is a club that lets EVERYONE join, and allows people to learn about Asian culture. You know, not the animu or the pocky or the adorable things that have been flooded into America, but rather the actual culture that the country has exhibited. The culture of an area that most of us have never been to. The club isn't just a group of asians doing things together, but rather a group of people learning about Asian culture, having a better understanding of the world.

Now, if caucasians formed groups (Like, lets say, a German Student Union) like this, it would be considered racist. People would scream "Why can't the black man join? Why can't we be equal with you!" I'm not just saying like, KKK and stuff, because there was a pretty big reason why other weren't allowed in, but other groups that were probably just like BSU or other clubs, but with caucasian people. Now, if any other race makes a group, they're applauded and seen as heroes or something. Looking at it like this, it's silly. I'm not a white supremacist (nor am I caucasian), but isn't this kinda the opposite of the equality we strived for so much in the 60s?

This gets even worse in college, in terms of scholarships, and even college choice. A friend of mine who is African American is suddenly getting a large amount of college offers, not just because he does well in school and is a pretty good euphonium player, but rather because he's African American. A lot of colleges that I see are deemed "black colleges", where only darker skinned groups are accepted. When I was doing college searches, I realized that there were also "hispanic colleges" or something close to that, which I could apply to because my mom is from Guatemala. Now, are there any schools for any other large race? Like, Asian colleges? Caucasian colleges? Anything? If we just spent hundreds of years trying to get rid of racial segregation, why are we now segregating education? More importantly, why is this not viewed in the same way? Why is it that certain groups are applauded for this kind of segregation while others are critisized for being racist?

This is a poorly written argument, but tl;dr, what I'm saying is that the revolution and demand for equality has taken a huge turn. It seems like we've forgotten what equality is and just see things as "white ppl r racist." We've been ignoring the segregation that's been happening like it's nothing. I'm not saying that I hate any racial groups. I'm not saying that they don't deserve recognition. I'm saying that if we fought for equality, why do we not continue the fight. Why do we still separate on race? Even if we're not separating railroad cars or drinking fountains, why are we still separating ourselves based on the color of our skin? Why are my chances of going to college better just because I happened to be born hispanic and my smart friend happened to be born white? What ever happened to the huge race for equality that occured! Are we just going to persecute the white man for being an ass to other races, or are we going to be equal?

I dunno, I don't like the way I wrote this, but it's all that I have. So, opinionate, critizise, call me retarded like the last time I tried posting in here, I dunno. I'm hoping that we don't all forget what "Serious Discussion" truly means.

[eclipse]

Don't worry, the racism that most are familiar with is still alive and kicking. It's not socially acceptable to express it as such, but rest assured, it still exists.

Source: Lots and lots of personal experience.

[Hero]

I agree with Eclipse. Conventional expressions of racism have been on the decline for a long time in many places but in many others you can't escape it. Racists usually know better than to declare their views openly nowadays but they still occupy many very influential positions. Affirmative action and cultural education are far from excessive when you contrast them with racism's huge cultural inertia.

[Original Alear]

This gets even worse in college, in terms of scholarships, and even college choice. A friend of mine who is African American is suddenly getting a large amount of college offers, not just because he does well in school and is a pretty good euphonium player, but rather because he's African American. A lot of colleges that I see are deemed "black colleges", where only darker skinned groups are accepted. When I was doing college searches, I realized that there were also "hispanic colleges" or something close to that, which I could apply to because my mom is from Guatemala. Now, are there any schools for any other large race? Like, Asian colleges? Caucasian colleges? Anything? If we just spent hundreds of years trying to get rid of racial segregation, why are we now segregating education? More importantly, why is this not viewed in the same way? Why is it that certain groups are applauded for this kind of segregation while others are critisized for being racist?

HBCs are more remnants of segregation than they are returns to it. That being said, they do accept white students, in fact an article I read claimed they actively recruit them (if this is true, I'm not sure if this is for funding purposes or just in the attempt to have a more diverse campus). I imagine that if HBCs got more white applicants, it's a possibility they would try to reject more white students in an attempt to preserve their status as HBCs, but as things are right now, it seems like the opposite is occurring. I'm not sure about the hispanic colleges, though I'd imagine they might be focused on students who are spanish speaking or bilingual. As for your friend, his preferential treatment is the result of affirmative action, which can partially be justified as not being racial discrimination on the idea that any sort of inferior treatment he has received is the result of social factors, rather than believing that black people deserve better treatment because they are black and have inherent differences from white people.

Affirmative action isn't segregating education on a racial basis: it's encouraging racial diversity on college campuses and elsewhere where it otherwise would not exist.

[Lord Raven]

My scholarship program used to be black only until 1996. After that, they accepted every single race and basically attempted to bring a bunch of totally different people (race-wise, background-wise, interest-wise) and make them all friends through a 6-week summer thing, and fund our education so we can go onto graduate school and get our PhDs. They do bring in white people for diversity.

I think my year is like 10% South Asian, 30%-40% White, 40%-50% Black (well, half of them are from Africa and half of them are Black), 1 Asian (the rest rejected... o.o) or something. The majors are all STEM.

[Cain Magnus]

As far is it goes in my town, racism has significantly declined, yet greatly increased sadly...

We had a few clubs like that when I was still in school. Not exactly the same, but similar to all of which you state. Heck, even my school itself was really prejudice. All of things there just made me feel like punching the nearest wall. That and everyone just seemed like it was perfectly normal (I'll refrain from going into deeper detail about the school thing).

It's true that nowadays, people don't show their true faces to the world. It's that simple fact that I can barely trust people I don't know as it is.

On the subject of racism, you know what hurts me the most? My family. I'll be short, yet brief with this as I don't want to change the subject.

When my dad and I went to visit my grandmother, she showed us a mailed photo of my aunt (Who lives in another state) together with her new spouse, who was Caucasian. Then she made some racial comment saying "Why they always want to be with these white people?" and I'm saying to myself, "Why the hell does that even matter...how is that relevant to anything about this nice picture...?" Then my dad's disgusting me with nodding his head, agreeing with her and saying things like "Why be together with different race while you have all these sistas and brothas out here?" I, myself and African American...but I don't give a crap about falling in love with someone who isn't my own race. If my family has a problem with that, I'm done with them...

...but enough of that mini-rant.

So I don't blame you for feeling this way towards racism. If anything, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's something that will always bother me...I'm pretty sure others suffer ten times worse than I do though.

[BBM]

I agree with you; people are being racist the opposite way now too. However, the old kind of racism still exists. A couple months ago, at a university nearby, a Muslim student was making a presentation in class. Someone held up a paper with 2 eyeholes cut out in front of her face, and the whole class, including the professor, laughed. In a way, being racist the other way is only balancing what is currently imbalanced.

My school is kinda weird. It has race/religion exclusive clubs, like the Muslim Student Association or the Tamil Student Association, and then it also has the United Cultures Club, which is divided into separate "Teams" for each area in the world, and these are not race-exclusive. Caucasians can join Team India, for example.

[BK-201]

I still think there's a slight difference between celebrating difference and reacting violently towards difference. Sure, isolated groups are fairly obnoxious and do fit the definition of discrimination but I think it's much lighter. There's always going to be some level of discrimination, I think what should be focused on is how that difference is framed.

[Blademaster!]

IIRC I believe there is a court case going on at the moment about how scholarships or something like that are unfair because of how they are based on race.

And I remember reading an article once about how a college forbid a group of students from making a club about white heritage or something like that because the college board thought that they were doing it just to poke fun at one of the black student associations.

You bring up a good point, but I'd say we'd have to wait another decade or two before we can really say that we have reached the point you described. But at the same time, it's already starting to happen:

Maybe things will even out as the hispanic population grows and the black and white populations shrink.

[frat_tastic]

There are tricky laws and such in place that schools have to follow for scholarships based on race. Like if the scholarship is privately funded, the person can really give the money to whoever they want. If it comes from the actual school though then things can get a little hairy. And this is only talking about public universities, private universities can again pretty much do whatever they want.

And then there's the whole idea of affirmative action in the first place and that's a tricky subject too. Like its OK to use race as a factor in things such as admissions selection, but it can't be the ONLY thing or such an overwhelmingly important thing that other factors essentially don't matter. See cases like Gratz v. Bollinger and Grutter v. Bollinger.

Stuff like white heritage clubs and all that stuff are bullshit. Whites have so much privilege built into their lives already, especially if they are straight and protestant (and male to some extent), that having a heritage club for being white serves really no purpose other than to show that we CAN set one up. While I wouldn't say most white people are racist, I see virtually zero of them doing anything to eliminate the privilege they've been given that gives them advantages over other races.

[Thor Odinson]

I'm okay with affirmative action to only the extent where if the two applicants were nearly identical and there's only so many slots, race could come into play for some diversity. But if a white applicant is actually a better candidate for the college/job meritwise than the nonwhite person, I see no reason why the non-white applicant should get in to said college/job/whatever when the white person's a better choice based on merits.

And then us Asians get discriminated against in the college application process by many upper-tier colleges since there's so many of us that do well in school.

[Phoenix Wright]

I'm okay with affirmative action to only the extent where if the two applicants were nearly identical and there's only so many slots, race could come into play for some diversity. But if a white applicant is actually a better candidate for the college/job meritwise than the nonwhite person, I see no reason why the non-white applicant should get in to said college/job/whatever when the white person's a better choice based on merits.

And then us Asians get discriminated against in the college application process by many upper-tier colleges since there's so many of us that do well in school.

I think affirmative action based on socio-economic status would be much fairer, and it's certainly more logical. Rich folk have the advantage, with rich blacks having the greatest advantage. Poor people are at a disadvantage.

To level the playing field, a socio-economic form of affirmative action would serve the Unites States much better.

[Thor Odinson]

That, I can agree to. Some poor people just can't afford the nice colleges that all the companies like to look at. Although, middle-class families gets it pretty bad wrt colleges too. If you're seriously poor and you get into a good school with qualifications, the school may throw money at you. Middle class families sometimes end up having to pay all that tuition themselves. Or sometimes the family doesn't pay and the student ends up in terrible debt and ends up using the first few years of their pay just to pay of those student loans. If they can even find a job.

Then there's the rich people who doesn't care and can pay off the entire tuition in cash + donations to the school which is a pretty big advantage.

[Celice]

Middle class families sometimes end up having to pay all that tuition themselves.

Not at Berkeley now--middle-income financial aid awards, just for you

fucking pricks of the uc system

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I'm basically in agreement with the OP. Really, it's come to the point where racism is fine so long as it's against whites (or, to a lesser extent, Asians). I despise affirmative action, because it tries to eliminate racism by IMPOSING racism -- the sheer stupidity, ignorance, AND back asswards logic invoved here is astounding. Colleges shouldn't even know your race, your age, your parents' or family income, etc. during the application process; only grades, test scores, and relevant extracurricular activities should be considered. Income should probably be considered afterwards for scholarships and such, but not race.

If we want to be colorblind, let's be colorblind. I'm so sick of seeing liberal white teenagers and young adults go into this whole "Oh god oh god I'm so sorry to every other race I'm such a terrible person for being born white which I can't control at all OH GOD IM A MONSTER" bullshit. I'm white, I don't feel guilty, and you know why? I've tried to be colorblind as much as humanly possible, and I have nothing to feel guilty for.

I've put up with this bullshit through undergraduate and postgraduate admissions; I'm sick of seeing people of other races WITH NOTABLY LOWER QUALIFICATIONS get into colleges I'm refused to simply because of their race. It's even more irritating when I see a report where a person sends 12 applications with the same qualifications to 6 colleges (6 were labeled as white, 6 were labeled as black), and watching the "white" applications get refused and the "black" applications get accepted. There are some colleges where you are supposedly 100x or 1000x more likely to be accepted with the same qualifications if you're black or hispanic than if you're white or Asian. This is fair? This is racial equality?

At the end of the day, you can claim that affirmative action "balances" social factors, but I have 3 simple counterpoints to that:

1) You're letting less qualified candidates go forward with affirmative action, even if you can claim the campus is more diverse. The doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. that are produced will be of lower quality than if you accepted the best candiates regardless of their race. This, of course, leads to a weird situation where it becomes somewhat justifiable to discriminate against black or hispanic doctors/lawyers simply because they have to be less qualified to BECOME a doctor/lawyer -- so affirmative action all of a sudden CREATES a weird racism.

2) Yeah, a ton of families grow up in environments where options are limited and the schools aren't the best. However, it's easier to go to the local library and grab an old Kaplan book to study for ACT/SAT/MCAT/DAT/whatever than it is for a white or Asian guy to change to the "right" race.

3) Affirmative action tries to correct for social degradation; areas like the inner cities, which are largely populated by blacks, tend to produce undereducated students. Instead of promoting the sustainance and growth of this culture and then adjust for it using racial weights during college admissions, why don't we try to reduce how many people get trapped in that crap? Welfare reform, combined with an education reform where students who work hard and perform well should be given extra opportunities, regardless of where they come from or how rich they are or what race they are would help way more than affirmative action ever did.

[Thor Odinson]

Not at Berkeley now--middle-income financial aid awards, just for you

fucking pricks of the uc system

Goddammit should've applied to the west coast

Oh well it's not like I don't go to college for nearly free anyway

[Anouleth]

I'm basically in agreement with the OP. Really, it's come to the point where racism is fine so long as it's against whites (or, to a lesser extent, Asians). I despise affirmative action, because it tries to eliminate racism by IMPOSING racism -- the sheer stupidity, ignorance, AND back asswards logic invoved here is astounding. Colleges shouldn't even know your race, your age, your parents' or family income, etc. during the application process; only grades, test scores, and relevant extracurricular activities should be considered. Income should probably be considered afterwards for scholarships and such, but not race.

The reality is that colleges do know your race. Tyrone is almost certainly black, and Timothy is almost certainly white: that is not a matter of racism but of statistics. And the reality is that students who come from less affluent backgrounds consistently underperform their richer peers even controlling for other factors.

If we want to be colorblind, let's be colorblind. I'm so sick of seeing liberal white teenagers and young adults go into this whole "Oh god oh god I'm so sorry to every other race I'm such a terrible person for being born white which I can't control at all OH GOD IM A MONSTER" bullshit. I'm white, I don't feel guilty, and you know why? I've tried to be colorblind as much as humanly possible, and I have nothing to feel guilty for.

Well, you might be assuaged by the fact that such caricatures do not exist, except perhaps in the minds of Republicans.

And I think it's natural to feel shame when you consider all the horrific things that white people have done to various races, much as the Germans presumably feel shame over WWII or whatever, or liberal Jews feel shame over Israel's actions towards the Palestinians.

I've put up with this bullshit through undergraduate and postgraduate admissions; I'm sick of seeing people of other races WITH NOTABLY LOWER QUALIFICATIONS get into colleges I'm refused to simply because of their race. It's even more irritating when I see a report where a person sends 12 applications with the same qualifications to 6 colleges (6 were labeled as white, 6 were labeled as black), and watching the "white" applications get refused and the "black" applications get accepted. There are some colleges where you are supposedly 100x or 1000x more likely to be accepted with the same qualifications if you're black or hispanic than if you're white or Asian. This is fair? This is racial equality?

Nothing is fair. If you are born underprivileged, you are provably less likely to succeed in college. Even if affirmative action was banned tomorrow, racial equality would not result.

And given that black people generally come from more under-privileged backgrounds, it might be rational to favour them. If Tyrone came from a poor, disadvantaged inner-city slum and Timothy came from a wealthy upper-middle class family in the suburbs and they both have the same grades, that indicates that Tyrone is naturally more intelligent since he got better grades under worse conditions.

Plus, under a certain notion of fairness, it also makes sense. Even if Timothy has better grades than the hypothetical Tyrone, he has been the unwitting recipient of preferential treatment since before he was born. One might say that it's only "fair" that Tyrone gets a break and Timothy gets community college. Which just goes to show what a hopelessly elastic concept "fairness" is.

At the end of the day, you can claim that affirmative action "balances" social factors, but I have 3 simple counterpoints to that:

1) You're letting less qualified candidates go forward with affirmative action, even if you can claim the campus is more diverse. The doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. that are produced will be of lower quality than if you accepted the best candiates regardless of their race. This, of course, leads to a weird situation where it becomes somewhat justifiable to discriminate against black or hispanic doctors/lawyers simply because they have to be less qualified to BECOME a doctor/lawyer -- so affirmative action all of a sudden CREATES a weird racism.

Then you should probably also make sure to find out whether they are from a rich or poor family since it is much easier for a rich person to become a lawyer or doctor than it is for a poor person.

[frat_tastic]

I'm basically in agreement with the OP. Really, it's come to the point where racism is fine so long as it's against whites (or, to a lesser extent, Asians). I despise affirmative action, because it tries to eliminate racism by IMPOSING racism -- the sheer stupidity, ignorance, AND back asswards logic invoved here is astounding. Colleges shouldn't even know your race, your age, your parents' or family income, etc. during the application process; only grades, test scores, and relevant extracurricular activities should be considered. Income should probably be considered afterwards for scholarships and such, but not race.

If we want to be colorblind, let's be colorblind. I'm so sick of seeing liberal white teenagers and young adults go into this whole "Oh god oh god I'm so sorry to every other race I'm such a terrible person for being born white which I can't control at all OH GOD IM A MONSTER" bullshit. I'm white, I don't feel guilty, and you know why? I've tried to be colorblind as much as humanly possible, and I have nothing to feel guilty for.

I've put up with this bullshit through undergraduate and postgraduate admissions; I'm sick of seeing people of other races WITH NOTABLY LOWER QUALIFICATIONS get into colleges I'm refused to simply because of their race. It's even more irritating when I see a report where a person sends 12 applications with the same qualifications to 6 colleges (6 were labeled as white, 6 were labeled as black), and watching the "white" applications get refused and the "black" applications get accepted. There are some colleges where you are supposedly 100x or 1000x more likely to be accepted with the same qualifications if you're black or hispanic than if you're white or Asian. This is fair? This is racial equality?

At the end of the day, you can claim that affirmative action "balances" social factors, but I have 3 simple counterpoints to that:

1) You're letting less qualified candidates go forward with affirmative action, even if you can claim the campus is more diverse. The doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. that are produced will be of lower quality than if you accepted the best candiates regardless of their race. This, of course, leads to a weird situation where it becomes somewhat justifiable to discriminate against black or hispanic doctors/lawyers simply because they have to be less qualified to BECOME a doctor/lawyer -- so affirmative action all of a sudden CREATES a weird racism.

2) Yeah, a ton of families grow up in environments where options are limited and the schools aren't the best. However, it's easier to go to the local library and grab an old Kaplan book to study for ACT/SAT/MCAT/DAT/whatever than it is for a white or Asian guy to change to the "right" race.

3) Affirmative action tries to correct for social degradation; areas like the inner cities, which are largely populated by blacks, tend to produce undereducated students. Instead of promoting the sustainance and growth of this culture and then adjust for it using racial weights during college admissions, why don't we try to reduce how many people get trapped in that crap? Welfare reform, combined with an education reform where students who work hard and perform well should be given extra opportunities, regardless of where they come from or how rich they are or what race they are would help way more than affirmative action ever did.

I can't stand the notion of being "color blind". It says that a person's race or ethnicity shouldn't matter, when it in fact matters very much. It shouldn't be a factor to have a negative perception, but knowing someone's race/ethnicity/soci-economic staus/where they come from/etc. is important in helping to understand who they are and what privileges they've had in life (or haven't had).

It seems to me that you're coming from the mindset that its just as easy for someone who may live in a lower income area (who is likely a person of color) to reach the same levels as someone from a high income area (likely white) when it is not that way at all. Students from high income families have more and better resources in their education and do not have nearly the same living circumstances as those students in lower income families.

If we want to reach "racial equality" as you put it, then affirmative action is actually helpful in that goal because it is providing opportunities to those who usually need it most. Yes, there are rich black/hispanic/whatever people who can also reap the benefits of affirmative action, but it is designed to help students of color who are typically seen in low income families have a fighting chance at furthering their education. There is such a thing as privilege, and every white person in America benefits from it, especially those in high income families. The system has been designed to give us privilege at the expense of others.

Edited March 15, 2012 by frat_tastic

[Blademaster!]

And given that black people generally come from more under-privileged backgrounds, it might be rational to favour them. If Tyrone came from a poor, disadvantaged inner-city slum and Timothy came from a wealthy upper-middle class family in the suburbs and they both have the same grades, that indicates that Tyrone is naturally more intelligent since he got better grades under worse conditions.

This is generally not the case. If someone comes from a poor area, obviously the education they got is not at the same level as someone who came from a rich area. I mean, if two people are the same age and school, and one takes X 201 and another takes X 101, and they both get the same grade in each class, clearly the kid in 201 is smarter since he knows what the other person learned in 101 and more. If Tyrone managed to get an A or B+, it might say something about his work ethic, but unless they got the same grade on something like the SAT, I wouldn't say Tyrone is smarter.

If we want to reach "racial equality" as you put it, then affirmative action is actually helpful in that goal because it is providing opportunities to those who usually need it most.

If we want racial equality, then we should help all people regardless of race who are from poor income families.

There is such a thing as privilege, and every white person in America benefits from it, especially those in high income families.

I am from a high income family, am white, and I've never experienced any of this so called "privilege" you describe. Can you please give me some examples of this so called "privilege" so that I can understand why exactly my fellow poor white brothers should have to suffer for it?

[Rehab]

For an explanation of FT's use of the word privilege, or something similar to it (and why it doesn't mean you should be ashamed of it or nothin), go to the [last] bullet point here

I don't think I agree that having the same grade in different classes proves whether one is smarter or not, and I'm generally uncomfortable basing intelligence assessments on grades. There could've been innumerable situational differences in play, like different-quality home lives, teachers, available materials, and different mid-term versus early and end-term performances.

Unfortunately, I think it's true that a kind of reverse-discrimination has insinuated its way into affirmative action, especially as far as the need to fulfill "race quotas" goes, but my understanding is that affirmative action is fundamentally about giving education opportunities to students who would be hard-pressed to get them otherwise, and to at least allow for racial diversity (and at most, to mandate it, which is kind of sketchy but not terribly offensive to me). I think that's worth doing on its own, but the implementation can be imperfect, and could easily continue to be so for a while. I think affirmative action can stand to be examined and corrected at least once in a while, especially at the lowest levels of administration that actually decide which students go where, but if it overall ensures that more people are educated than would've been without it, I think it's worth keeping.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Rehab

[frat_tastic]

If we want racial equality, then we should help all people regardless of race who are from poor income families.

This is very true. It is the case though that many low income families are made up of minorities. This isn't to discount any low-income white families, as they should also receive assistance.

I am from a high income family, am white, and I've never experienced any of this so called "privilege" you describe. Can you please give me some examples of this so called "privilege" so that I can understand why exactly my fellow poor white brothers should have to suffer for it?

Rehab's link does a good job of explaining privilege. Privilege are all the little extra perks that come from something without having to work to get them. Its not something to be ashamed of, but people need to acknowledge that it exists. If you were to go watch almost any TV show, you would see mainly a cast of white, straight people. Similar situation in movies. Income level might vary a little more here. The example in Rehab's link of black people and getting pulled over by the police is another example. Privilege has been created over the course of our country's development, and its not like you did something to make it be like that. But it still exists and creates an unfair situation.

Unfortunately, I think it's true that a kind of reverse-discrimination has insinuated its way into affirmative action, especially as far as the need to fulfill "race quotas" goes, but my understanding is that affirmative action is fundamentally about giving education opportunities to students who would be hard-pressed to get them otherwise, and to at least allow for racial diversity (and at most, to mandate it, which is kind of sketchy but not terribly offensive to me). I think that's worth doing on its own, but the implementation can be imperfect, and could easily continue to be so for a while. I think affirmative action can stand to be examined and corrected at least once in a while, especially at the lowest levels of administration that actually decide which students go where, but if it overall ensures that more people are educated than would've been without it, I think it's worth keeping.

Agreed on a lot of this, especially the bold part, although I will point out that having "race quotas" or things similar to that have been trounced in the Supreme Court before, so they aren't as much of an issue anymore.

Edited March 15, 2012 by frat_tastic

[Rehab]

Oh, really? Is that a recent decision? A couple months ago, I think I heard a radio piece on a high school kid getting bussed out to a school that was inconvenient and didn't make sense to go to, because the one he would've gone to had something along the lines of either too many white students or not enough nonwhite students.

[frat_tastic]

Oh, really? Is that a recent decision? A couple months ago, I think I heard a radio piece on a high school kid getting bussed out to a school that was inconvenient and didn't make sense to go to, because the one he would've gone to had something along the lines of either too many white students or not enough nonwhite students.

I really only know about it at the collegiate level. I can't really speak on the high school level. As for the collegiate level, the two previous cases I mentioned earlier (Gratz v. Bollinger and Grutter v. Bollinger) deal with affirmative action and "racial quotas".

[Anouleth]

This is generally not the case. If someone comes from a poor area, obviously the education they got is not at the same level as someone who came from a rich area. I mean, if two people are the same age and school, and one takes X 201 and another takes X 101, and they both get the same grade in each class, clearly the kid in 201 is smarter since he knows what the other person learned in 101 and more. If Tyrone managed to get an A or B+, it might say something about his work ethic, but unless they got the same grade on something like the SAT, I wouldn't say Tyrone is smarter.

I think it's implied in my statement that it's the same or similar class. And my overall point is unchanged: if Tyrone gets the same grades [in the same classes] as Timothy, the college admissions board may very well interpret that as Tyrone having a better work ethic or being more intelligent or whatever and thus favour him for a place, entirely rationally.

I am from a high income family, am white, and I've never experienced any of this so called "privilege" you describe.

The fact that you /are/ from a high income family indicates that you are privileged. The fact that you do not notice this only reinforces this: for you, being comfortably wealthy seems like such a normal element of life that you cannot even conceive that other people do not live in the same way.

Living in a nice, safe neighbourhood, going to a good primary school or secondary school, having peers who value scholastic achievement, having a family who is happy for you to engage in extracurricular activities or to help you with your homework or to help pay for college are all privileges in that not everyone gets them. I wouldn't exactly call it white privilege since not all white people are so lucky, but it is a privilege that white people enjoy disproportionately and at the expense of black people.

[Othin]

reverse-discrimination

dis·crim·i·na·tion/disˌkriməˈnāSHən/

Noun:

The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

There's no reverse version of that. There's just different kinds.

Now, the question is, does it go all the way around to become discrimination against whites? As Anouleth pointed out, there are many other issues, and some of us are too privileged to even notice them. It certainly seems difficult to suggest that overall.