Is Wendy or Amelia Better?

[shadykid]

Trouble is that most of the people that call Wendy good ignore the blood sweat and tears of training her in an arena.

who are these people, they must make Kellam look visible if they actually exist

Edited July 4, 2013 by shadykid

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Go to gamefaqs

Open character comparison

ROFL

[shadykid]

Go to gamefaqs

yeah no

gamefaqs doesn't count, therefore these people remain invisible

[Espinosa]

Even if we factor that in, Amelia has flexibility and ease of training as opposed to Wendy (since FE8 is very easy to train on). Wendy is stuck as a general. Amelia can be many different things (including a general).

So even in your world, when we compare two characters, efficiency does enter the equation even if we stop counting turns meticulously.

[Raven]

Why are people still discussing this?

Edit: Oh nice necro.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Raven

[Snowy_One]

So even in your world, when we compare two characters, efficiency does enter the equation even if we stop counting turns meticulously.

More like 'flexibility' and 'even though I don't care about turncounts I want to waste less time grinding'. Amelia wins both.

[Sublime Manic]

More like 'flexibility' and 'even though I don't care about turncounts I want to waste less time grinding'. Amelia wins both.

That is a example of wanting to be (comparatively more) efficient.

I totally agree about the flexibility thing, though. Even though I'll always make her a Paladin, as will many, there's a significant number of people who don't love themselves prefer her as a General. And even some who like her Super Trainee class, so having different class options which are valued by vastly different mindsets is a plus.

[Snowy_One]

I refuse to go to the extreme end of the spectrum where 'not wanting to waste time grinding' becomes 'efficiency'. Especially considering I did the FFXII early level cap trick.

[Sublime Manic]

Uh... it's hardly extreme. Virtually everything can be measured into a scale of efficiency. Your 'not wanting to waste time grinding' is an example of efficiency compared to 'wasting time grinding' because the former is more efficient than the latter, whether you'd hate to ever have your name next to "efficiency" or not. Like Espinosa's post said, you can have forms of efficiency that don't consider turns and such. How much real time you actually spend on something is another way of looking at, and measuring, efficiency.

The early XII level cap trick (the one where you can walk away from the game, right?) is arguably far more an extreme example of efficiency than the example you made for Fire Emblem, in fact, because the time you have to spend observing the game to level up is reduced to nothing, saving you a lot of time in your life for doing other things.

[Narga_Rocks]

I refuse to go to the extreme end of the spectrum where 'not wanting to waste time grinding' becomes 'efficiency'. Especially considering I did the FFXII early level cap trick.

That anything like the lete river trick in ff6? I have to ask: why? Isn't that like removing everything interesting from a gameplay standpoint?

It's gotta be like playing a movie at that point. Or like, say, have a whole team of Seth in fe8 (and boss exp for each of them to keep truckin, so you'd need like 6 bosses per chapter or more but whatever).

[Snowy_One]

No. It's the trick where you grind Malboro's in the sewers to hit level 99 before you've even reached the Tomb of Raithwall. It's almost needed if you want to even consider tackling Yiazmut (or some similar trick at least). Not to metion FFXII is very unforgiving and it's quite easy to accidentally end up wandering into areas where you just simply stand no chance normally (and gambits SUCK).

[shadykid]

"Jeigans suck, it'd be like starting a Pokemon game with a level 100 Mewtwo"-Snowy

*proceeds to grind for levels in FFXII to trivialize the rest of the game*

[MacLovin]

Amelia is debatedly the worst. Ewan is her competition.

Wendy is lol. No payoff. No potential. No use..

[Snowy_One]

"Jeigans suck, it'd be like starting a Pokemon game with a level 100 Mewtwo"-Snowy

*proceeds to grind for levels in FFXII to trivialize the rest of the game*

I stand by my decision considering how BS some of the enemies in FFXII could be if you weren't prepared for them. I died to that stupid fireball in the first area four times before realizing that ANY spellcasting set it off even if it was simple healing magic. And I don't even want to think about how many times those stupid rabbits killed me.

[shadykid]

I stand by my decision considering how BS some of the enemies in FFXII could be if you weren't prepared for them. I died to that stupid fireball in the first area four times before realizing that ANY spellcasting set it off even if it was simple healing magic. And I don't even want to think about how many times those stupid rabbits killed me.

bullshit, you could replace FFXII with any game and your statement would come out the same, and this doesn't address the fact that you complain about a unit trivializing a game, then proceed to grind to trivialize a game because something is "too hard"

I stand by my decision considering how BS some of the enemies in FE12 could be if you weren't prepared for them. I died to those stupid cavaliers in Prologue 7 four times before realizing that I needed to block the left fort. And I don't even want to think about how many times I accidentally got a critical when it led to a death.

see, FE12 version

Edited July 5, 2013 by shadykid

[Snowy_One]

That's like claiming a cow and a unicorn are the same thing because they both have horns.

Grinding in a game, especially a FF game, usually requires repeating a single take hyper-petativly and exploiting glitches, oversights, and everything in general to your advantage. Worst of all, depending on the game, if you grind at the wrong time or in the wrong way, you can end up far worse than if you had just played through normally. The reason it worked in FFXII is because it was possible to exploit a game oversight in it's license board to defeat an enemy beyond what I would normally be capable of. If I had tried a similar trick in FFVI I would have been left VERY weak until after I had hunted down some decent magicite for leveling up, for example. If I tried that in Pokemon, until the later gyms were cleared, I'd either need a mon that could survive making a move on one-in-every-four-turns or be left with a mon only slightly stronger than the area I'm supposed to be in who disobeys me constantly.

This is ignoring that games like FFXII EXPECT you to do this. This is why things like bonus bosses exist and enemies spamming BS moves even appear. The game developers know that a fraction of their players will, almost certainly, grind up their level beyond what it should be. So enemies like this exist due to these expectations, often with bonus-bosses designed with the hyper-leveled in mind and stored away in places or quests most players who wouldn't do such grinding would never see. In FFXII, any player who doesn't grind will almost certainly never even see the Yiazmut poster. In FFX most players won't even set foot in the Omega dungeon. Most Symphonia Players won't even know the abyssial weapons exist simply because even finding these things would normally not happen without a guide or dedicated player (never mind actually acquiring them).

By comparison, a Jeigan is given simply because the game developers are offering a crutch character to newer players. A character who only becomes 'bad' towards the end of the game (if even that or then). A character who starts off already super-strong who needs NO grinding at all to be good. No work, no effort, no seclusion, just right there at the start of the game, sometimes even set up with the expectation that you will use this no-effort, overpowered, unit extensively.

I spent more time grinding in FFXII to cap out my level early than it took me to beat FE9. By doing this early grinding I probably set my gametime high enough to make it impossible for me to actually beat the game faster than if I had just played normally, or even if I had gone with a 'better' grinding method available later in the game. I didn't trivialize it. I devoted more time and energy to it than most players who just want to beat the game 'normally' would to pull off what I did.

And unlike you're claims of supposed unfairness, aggroing a level 16+ monster when your party is only level 4-5 because you unwittingly wandered off the path is simply not in the same ballpark, league, or anything as failing to block a passage or getting screwed on the RNG.

[Espinosa]

That's why you have Libra to scan the enemies and check their level before they aggro, letting you know which ones are best avoided entirely. Their existence is something to please players who like grinding and "perfect gaming" - it's by no means an invitation to max levels through Dustia levelling before going to the castle.

[Snowy_One]

I'm fairly sure using Libra causes at least the magic things whose name I can't remember (Entites?) to attack. Regardless, even if it doesn't, simply casting magic near one will result in it attacking. So 'avoiding' them is a pointless argument since they will attack on an arbitrary and difficult condition and inhabit the same area as enemies who are NOT improperly leveled.

[Espinosa]

Bangles offering auto-Libra can be bought for 500 Gil in Giza Plains and enable you to see the strength of the monster in sight; however, usually you can guess depending on appearance, e.g. the overlevelled guys with high stats really stand out early on if you meet them, so you can prepare yourself for a hard battle and run when possible (which is pretty easy when the enemy starts charging some spell upon noticing you). Libra can also be cast prior to engaging a monster into battle, just like any other buff.

[Dark Sage]

Some of the monsters such as the Dinosaur in the desert early on don't even attack unless you deliberately provoke them. Maybe it's different later in the game, I only got as far as rescuing Ashe, but generally it's not really hard to avoid fighting these enemies.

[Shadow Mir]

Most Symphonia Players won't even know the abyssial weapons exist simply because even finding these things would normally not happen without a guide or dedicated player (never mind actually acquiring them).

Ditto for Abyss and Vesperia (only it's even worse in these cases, since the earliest time you can actually unlock their power is right before the end of the game (Abyss) or needing to clear the game (Vesperia). And in all three cases, you have to fight an excruciatingly hard boss to unlock their power.

[shadykid]

words

let's try this again:

I stand by my decision to knock Gogols off cliffs with Melia all day in Xenoblade considering how BS some of the enemies could be if you weren't prepared for them. I died to that stupid Telethia in Makna Forest four times before realizing how keep Soul Read/Super Heal down consistently. And I don't even want to think about how many times some random high-level enemy came by and OHKOed me before I could react.

regardless, I thought grinding was bad? why change that with Dustia grinding in FF12, it should be the same as grinding in the arena in FE (which actually takes RNG abuse and luck, unlike LOL PHEONIX DOWNS)?

oh right, you're a hypocrite that just hates Jeigans for some reason, there's nothing wrong with a clutch character in a game where grinding (usually) isn't an option

[Snowy_One]

I never played Xenoblade (due to my Wiimote battery being horrible), so I can't say. Regardless, it's not hypocrisy. I'm not claiming that grinding should be done or is a good thing (I hate it actually. I just hate dealing with those enemies more). Besides, this is about Wendy and Amelia. The fact is that grinding Amelia up is MUCH easier than Wendy, requires less luck, and Amelia is more flexible than Wendy.

And I hate Jeigans because of LTC players and lists who shove them to the top of a tier list for their early game power.

[shadykid]

I never played Xenoblade (due to my Wiimote battery being horrible), so I can't say. Regardless, it's not hypocrisy. I'm not claiming that grinding should be done or is a good thing (I hate it actually. I just hate dealing with those enemies more). Besides, this is about Wendy and Amelia. The fact is that grinding Amelia up is MUCH easier than Wendy, requires less luck, and Amelia is more flexible than Wendy.

And I hate Jeigans because of LTC players and lists who shove them to the top of a tier list for their early game power.

we weren't discussing the first part anymore

do you also hate Meta Knight because he's easily #1 on the tier list

[Snowy_One]

we weren't discussing the first part anymore

do you also hate Meta Knight because he's easily #1 on the tier list

I don't play Brawl online (poor Wii net connection), follow the message boards, or know how to use Metaknight in general. From what little I know of him, what makes MK good is that, with a skilled player, he can be devastating. That's VERY different from a character that's overpowered from the getgo and who needs no skill. Heck, the only reason I even know Metaknight is top-tier was because I'm sick of my friend beating me with Ganon and looked for a counter online.