charlie_ Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Also, is this Eirika route only? If not then the list can stand to change a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 It obviously is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNG Princess Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 is Gerik really that good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 But why is it assuming Eirika. Normally you get to choose your route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Need to make an Ephraim route list too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Depending on how many characters this affects, might want to give them separate places, so Duessel (Eir) would be far lower than Duessel (Eph). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) So Good They're Free Eirika Ephraim Tethys Myrrh 1st pick Franz Vanessa Garcia Saleh 2nd pick Tana Kyle Forde Artur 3rd pick Gerik Innes Ross Gilliam 4th pick Duessel Joshua Lute Colm 5th/6th pick Knoll Syrene Dozla Neimi L'Arachel So Bad They Cost Turns/Effort Cormag Rennac Marisa Ewan Amelia So Bad They're Banned Seth Here's how I'd revise the tier list myself. Edited March 16, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naglfar Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 except this is a tier list, not a drafting guide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was under the impression that Cormag almost certainly saves more turns than he costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was under the impression that Cormag almost certainly saves more turns than he costs. Could you back that statement up please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was under the impression that Cormag almost certainly saves more turns than he costs. Does he save much in eirika route? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 You can finish chapter 13 eirika route in 2 turns with almost every team and recruiting cormag requires that you wait for him like 3 or 4 turns? I doubt hes gonna make up for them. Its either that or forcing you to go ephraim route which is worse than waiting for him in eirika lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 It's not that bad after the Phantom Ship. And besides Duracell wrecks it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 except this is a tier list, not a drafting guide It's kind of both, I mean, draft tier list. It's stating who are the best picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Sort of makes you think why nobody made a drafting guide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Proposed changes- Seth off the list. This is a DRAFT tier list. I know draft is daft with an r in it, but come on. Eirika off the list. Same reason. Eirika and Seth are units just like any other. Just because Eirika is free doesn't mean that she can't be ranked, and that's the whole point of the tier list: ranking characters. This isn't one of those "Drafting priorities" tier list. Franz doesn't need a tier to himself. It serves no purpose. Formerly, it did. It meant to seperate Franz from all the other characters due to his outstanding performance. But now that something's been clarified, he will be sharing a tier with Vanessa. Garcia below Saleh. Saleh is a great combatent and Warper. Except he has to choose between one or the other. If he's constantly fighting, there's no time to staffspam until he reaches an A-rank starting from C. If he's fighting, he'll be constantly fighting in Ch 12, 13, 15 & 18. That leaves him three or four chapters to staff spam. And that still doesn't outdo Garcia's decent earlygame performance and the fact that he's the next best pick after Franz and Vanessa who isn't mounted. His Midgame isn't even had considering he can promote to Hero for +2 Spd and use Amelia's Speedwings for another +2 Spd. I won't even mention his Lategame thanks to GARm. Tana further below. By the time you get Tana you get 3 Rescue bots, so even with flying she's not that spectacular on chapters that don't need a fly-Rescue thing. Assuming you are lucky enough to get those three "Rescuebots". Tana saves you 5 turns on Ch 10, that is just good enough. I won't even mention the things he can do on the desert once promoted (WK Tana is the best thing ever for the desert), Ch 17, 19, 20 and Endgame. Tethys off the list. Same reason as Eirika and Seth. Tethys isn't even free in most drafts. Joshua down way lower. He's not that helpful with sword lock, no 2 range, bad move, etc. Joshua is decent. And what hard does it do to have an extra decent combat unit around? It's certainly helpful for rout chapters, and he isn't as bad as the others below him. Artur up. Warp is always a good thing. Sure. Colm down. He's superfluous after Ch. 8. You're right. Done. Gilliam down. Early game doesn't make him THAT useful. It's not his earlygame, but the fact that he's rather decent once promoted to GK thanks to the fact that he can keep up with the others and be virtuually invincible on a 6-Mov horse. Innes WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY up. Yes, only 2 range sucks, but he does more than the likes of Dozlol. I raised him above Dozlac, and that's about it. Amelia way down because she sucks even as a 10/1 Social Knight. She has four chapters to train. Give her a chance. Oh yeah, she can be on a Rescue-Drop duty for Ch 10, 14 and 16 to get Eirika to the throne faster. Duessel way up, he's great in Eirika Mode too, just less availability. Not so great when you're overshadowed by the others. :/ Late join time really hurts him. Syrene up. Another rescuer is always nice. Knoll up. Summon are INCREDIBLY useful. Set and done. Ok First [spoiler=tl;dr]PKL, Franz is definately better than Vanessa a significant amount. Fliers are really not that great in this game. Plus, Franz's promotion item comes earlier, and doesn't cost turns to get. Knoll is infinatley better than Ewan, Ewan is a level 1 mage with no offence or potential when he's being left in the dust, and has an inability to get kills, Knoll can insta-promote and use phantoms in multiple locations like: Chapter 16 - Can eat a purge for Tethys/other squishy unit Chapter 17 - Theoretically has the ability to take-drop the boss killer. Chapter 18 - Eats Gorgon shadowshots and kills Eggs on the same turn! Chapter 19 - Useless Chapter 20 - Take/Drop again Final - Eat shadowshots, take drop Ewan, in my mind can't even match Knoll's utility in chapter 18. Saleh is the only unit that can reliably take down most of the desert single handedly. Tana and Vanessa won't have the offensive power and have a bow weakness, (along with a promotion item that costs turns, unless they take the chapter 15 master seal), Cormag likely doesn't exist, and Artur/Lute don't have the power (or in Lute's case, have to sacrifice a horse as well) to do so. Saleh can have Warp by chapter 16 (17 at the latest) with Tethys use, and have it by chapter 18 without it, can eat two energy rings, and have 10 range warp without any levels. With drafted Colm, it's and 11 range warp, and IIRC you need 11 range warp to plunk someone in front of Lyon, and a 13 range warp to warp someone onto Morva's island in chapter 20. He's likely the only warper that will be able to reach this range. (Artur is debateable.) Tana can drop someone over in chapter 9, but unless you have Franz, you're not going to drop anyone over there anyway without losing a unit. In chapter 10, unless you monkey ballista dodges, she doesn't save an overwhelming amount of turns unless you somehow have both Tana and Vanessa. Chapter 11 she's just another unit. Then Chapter 12 rolls along, and Saleh wrecks her in combat with equal durability. She is pretty useful here though utility wise though. Neither are useful in chapter 13 really (although Saleh can park himslef on a fort and wreck the entire oncoming enemy army), Chapter 14 Saleh has the unlock staff and the enemies are all axe dudes, armours and archers, 3 enemy types Tana has issues with. Saleh can warp in 17, cancelling out Tana's flight there, and Warp is better than flight in chapter 20 as well. Before you question Saleh as a feasible Warp candidate, i've got him to hit A Staves in chapter 16 in a run where I cleared the game in 87 turns, so it's definately possible in a draft. You convinced me to raise Knoll. Well played, Sir. Neimi needs to drop, if one goes swift, its hard to get her levelled. I go way slower than you guys, and I just got Neimi to lvl 10 by Innes first eirika route chapter....... You probably weren't trying so hard. And her 10/1 stats are horrible, she's only rescue-botting and chipping, Cormag costs a bit, but flies, decent combat, and comes with whip and killer lance. Rescue/Dropping is decent utility. It's better than costing 4 turns that you might not get back, or just about be even meaning Neimi would probably win because of earlygame chipping and Midgame horsie. Syrene has acceptable combat, comes right before the gorgon egg chapter, and has good weapon ranks. I might just raise her. I fail to see how we're getting Neimi anyplace, because she's just an archer, Sure, doubling with iron is nice in ch4, BUT SHE GETS FUCKING 2-3HKO'd by basic zombies, anything with 16 attack 2HKOs her. And she fails to ORKO even the weak ones with iron. irk? Just like Eirika! Outside of earlygame chip and possible mount, I fail to see where she's going unless we go slow the fuck down. 5 move, bowlocked, shit bases, low con, and her only redeeming point is saving a bit in ch3 and if we can get her there-mount at 10/1. ;/ I'll just have to try her and come back to you. Seth has no reason to be on this list, as he is never usable in a normal draft. Read "So good it's banned". As long as Warp is allowed, Saleh > Tana, and Artur > Joss and Ross. Read my previous statements reguarding Saleh and Warping. Duessel > Amelia. Even in Eirika, Duessel's bases are endgame material. In the last three drafts I've had him, he couldn't even get 10 kills because the others were doing most of the work. I am not saying number of kills justifies anyone's position, but that just proves how useful he's been. Ephraim somewhere in Mid. Why? Neimi should be higher as well. Unlike in other games, there's no possibility of Sigurd/Marcus/Titania/Jeigan solo, so early availability means something. She can help break walls in chapter 3, chapter 4 is a rout so every little bit helps, chapter 5 she can harvest villages or help clear the route to Joshua, chapter 6 she chips to reach the boss quicker, chapter 7 she doesn't do much unless Vanessaskip is disallowed, you have to wait for Ephraim unless you have a highly blessed Franz or Eirika so she can be trained a bit here. Beyond that, she chips until she gets a horse, which would probably be about ch 11-12. From there, I don't see L'Arachel being more useful unless you have a healer, and while Amelia is a little better due to more potential, she wouldn't do enough to make up for 7-8 chapters of not existing. Well, yeah...the problem about that is that others highly disagree on me even putting her above two mid/lategame fliers (and one of them costs turns). I think she's just right where I put her in the first place. Duracell>Innes. Even in eirika route, he can take out the south end, and can take a brave/killer/silver and hands axes for rest of game. Innes comes 4 chapters earlier to actually do some work (and two of those chapters are routes, go figure), it's better than what DURACELL will be doing. I just give him credit for Ch 15's South side and Ch 18. Trust me, my last draft had these two guys and Innes got at least 25 more kills than Duessel. Duracell with boots is like an Energizer Bunny on Crack, it doesn't give a fuck about enemies ganging up on it due to loldef/wpn ranks/str, and everything else is fixable. Garm/speedwings for his speed, S.Book for skl-if he needs, maybe a talisman for res. Boots would be a fun idea, because allowing him to catch up with forde/kyle/franz/mounts. Actually, a much more sensible idea would be to give those Boots to Eirika so she can Seize quickly at Ch 16 (saving one or two turns), another turn at Ch 17 & 19. Hell, WTF is he doing under Amelia and even fucking Lute? Lute has early use, and MK, Amelia is a trainee (ugh) and is not gonne be that use ful as a 10/1 cav outside of rescue drops. Lute isn't horrible. Far from it. She can train during earlygame to be a decent Mid to lategame unit as a MK with Rescue-dropping potential and decent offense. You might just be underrating what Rescue-Dropping can do. It'll be helpful to get Eirika to the throne faster at Ch 10, 14 and 16. Amelia has four chapters to train (10, 11, 12 & 13) before she can promote and go Paladin. She can certainly be pretty useful at Ch 11 & 12 which are rout chapters. Why don't we do the list in order of picks? It would make it easier to organize. Such as First Round Franz Vanessa Blah Blahblah Not Neimi then there's one tier for each round. Those suck. This isn't a drafting guide. Ephraim!Ephraim Don't even dare use that hideous term again. Consider yourself excomunicated. Wait, new rules? put the rules in the OP dammit Done. ;/ What? Yeah, whats up with that? That was only in one experimental draft. She can ferry in every other. Oh. I thought it was common since I've been seeing it in the newer drafts. With that, Vanessa has no reason not to be in the same tier with Franz. is Gerik really that good? Gerik is amazing. But why is it assuming Eirika. Normally you get to choose your route. Because not everyone is silly enough to go through the harder route that costs you more turns. I was under the impression that Cormag almost certainly saves more turns than he costs. Newsflash: he doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was under the impression that Saleh can staffbot on PP and fight on EP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) How is this not a drafting guide? What are the tiers based on exactly if it's not best picks? Edited March 16, 2012 by Darros Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I was under the impression that Saleh can staffbot on PP and fight on EP... You know, I never thought of that. How dare you convince me about something with logic. ... ... ... I still think Tana is better. Why don't you debate about it? How is this not a drafting guide? What are the tiers based on exactly if it's not best picks? It's based on ranking characters. Tier lists aren't game guides in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Ross and Joshua are a bit high. I'd say drop to below Gilliam and Colm to below Gilliam. Joshua is a pain to recruit without Natasha, and Ross is a trainee - a pain to train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I've drafted Ross a few times, and trust me, you'd be impress with what he can do. He's the best not Franz/Vanessa earlygame unit imo. And Joshua isn't that hard to recruit if Natasha is undrafted. I'll drop Colm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Gilliam is better than Joshua though, due to decent bulk and the Chapter 7 Crest to early GK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkhead Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) But before that he has a hard time keeping up due to 4 Move. ): And he doesn't double reliably until liek, Ch 9 Speedwings. Edited March 16, 2012 by Soul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 He's probably the fourth best early game unit (and Vanessa's early combat sucks). If there's no Franz he's guaranteed that Crest and gains Axes, the best weapon type in the game with the Con to wield them, and outpaces all your unmounted units until they promote. He also doesn't need any resources or turns being babied unlike Ross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Where does Gilliam have trouble keeping up versus Joshua? Aside from chapter 5, when Gill plods his way towards Joshua anyway, and Eirika is charging with a sword if any kind. In chapter 7, neither of them are doing anything, except maybe a rescuedrop over the river. In chapter 6, Joshua is too frail to blast through the cavs and the knights. In chapter 8, ASSUMING ONE DOESN'T HAVE FRANZ, Gilliam!GK can easily ferry Eirika, while Joshua gets held up in PP combat. PreJoshua Chapter 1 doesn't require him anyway. Chapter 3, he takes out the reinforcements with more than ease. Chapter 2, he contributes just fine with a slim lance and decent hit rates on the tiny map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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