New Mechanics you want

[Snowy_One]

As the topic title suggests, in this topic I want to discuss the various mechanics of the game and how to improve/introduce new ones to the series that could be of value later on down the road. I want to establish a few ground rules first.

1) All mechanics are just that. Mechanics. You are allowed to use examples from prior games but in the end no one mechanic is so good/bad that it can't work, just that it shouldn't be used.

2) There are multiple mechanics that can work at one time. Feel free to discuss the merits of various systems, but remember that there can be multiple 'right' answers.

3) This is not a debate thread. The goal is not to develop some perfect FE system or tier RNG algorithms or anything like that. While it is fine to have a debate or two, remember that that if you end up exchanging a large amount of posts between someone you probably are taking this too seriously.

4) This isn't about non-FE games. Feel free to use them as examples, not using them at all is foolish, but the focus is still on FE games. Final Fantasy Tactics may be a great game, but I REALLY don't want to see ten pages praising it's mechanics.

Anyways, now time to get started. One of the things that's constantly bugged me is how overpowered speed is and underpowered luck is. While all the stats aren't perfectly balanced (DEF/RES), these two show the greatest difference since they're the most/least valuable stats respectively. Luck simply doesn't do much that can't be handled better by SPD. SPD gives better AVO and not getting hit also means not taking a critical attack as well, so if a enemy has 100% critical but 0% hit, you're safe (it's doubtful a enemy would ever get 100% crit in the first place too, but not so much the 0% hit). I don't think that removing the doubling rule is a good idea, or rather not worth discussing right now, especially since the only stat that comes close to being as useless as luck is RES. Luck needs a buff more than SPD needs a nerf. One of my suggestions is this; change skills that have a passive chance to activate into using luck as the stat they need too activate. Even for HP-requiring skills you could add luck onto the percentage needed. A skill that normally activates at 20% health on a unit with 15 luck could activate at 35% health instead!

[Rehab]

Interesting luck activation idea, though I think I tend to prefer in practice skills that can be activated. It might be cool to have skills that are based on instinct, or really based on luck to be activated by an RNG roll, like Miracle or Adept, but even then some kind of situational modifier on top would be nice, to give them a boost and to give the user something like control.

+If the series embraces an overworld+optional battles scheme it might dwindle in importance (more than it already has), but FE4 had my favorite arena system. Available every chapter, has enemies that are basically freebies to start with and become more challenging, leaves one with 1 HP at a loss, can be used more than once in one turn, and have limited challengers to prevent unlimited use. Maybe that style and the GBA-style arenas could be presented side-by-side, for people who enjoy the threat of true death, if they ever decide to bring arenas back. Not sure how I would change them otherwise, aside from more Holyn-style rewards of significance for doing well in the arena, or doing like the Tales series by letting you fight old characters for fun.

+This might bring the series farther away from the simplicity that to me is part of the feel of Fire Emblem, but (pasting some stuff from here), I think it would be interesting to give different classes unique abilities to their class, to give them some varied uses and flavors.

[spoiler=for example]Potential stuff:

- Horses could try to trample over and past an enemy, maybe doing minor damage, at some kind of increased risk to counterattack. Not sure what would make sense to have this dependant on, speed/luck/con maybe? (even if he wasn't the origin, credit to Othin Smash bringing it up)

- Thieves getting something like the ability to try to vault a couple spaces over an enemy unit and getting an evade bonus against that unit on their phase, or maybe just debuffing that enemy's hit in general. Guessing this would have a roll dependent on speed/skill.

- Warriors, fighters etc being able to try to tackle/pin down an enemy, occupying the enemy's square for a turn so that friendly units can pass over them, maybe putting the warrior at a disadvantage to being attacked by other enemies on that phase. Guessing the tackle roll could be dependent on strength/constitution/speed. Maybe on promotion, the penalty could be lessened or even done away with, or maybe make that a certain character's specialty.

- Knights, armors etc having an ability where, if they used it before moving, they would end their phase immediately but, if an enemy unit tried to run past them on their phase, then they would automatically be attacked, and if hit, be pushed back in the direction they came from (stalwart/NONE SHALL PASS mode). Maybe a promoted unit could do it even after moving.*

- Soldiers could take a similar defensive stance with their shield, and just get a regular old defense/evade boost? And/or maybe the same auto-attack thing if passed, but without the pushback on hit. Maybe this could make them a lot harder to trample, since pikes and halberds etc were used to great affect against horses through real history.*see above

- Myrmidons could attempt to disarm an enemy unit for a turn or so, have a roll based highly on skill and/or speed. Maybe the weapon triangle could also come into play heavily, or there'd just be different difficulties for all different kinds of weapons, tomes and bows included.

- Archers could get a special advantage after dodging to help them control space and give them some extra mobility. Say, when attacked (in melee?), if they dodge they'd get an immediate chance to move one square while still on the enemy phase. Maybe they could have a "stance" kind of move similar to knights/soldiers, where if an enemy was already in the correct range before moving, they could put extra effort into aiming, get a bonkers crit boost or something. and maybe we could lift something from Tactics Ogre and let them shoot items at nearby allies, too

- Mages could, uh, channel magic? Different boosts for different types, say fire = +mag, thunder = +attack speed, wind = +hit/avoid, light = +res, dark = something funky. Maybe this should take away their movement, like knights'/soldiers' defensive stances or rescues.

- Fliers: just kidding these assholes are special enough already

+ I like FE5's capture/hostage concept, but I'm not sure how it could be refined. The trend for recent FE's has been to make weapons more available and to enlarge the scale of the game, so whether it would fit with the average "army on the march" is arguable, but some form of "to the victors go the spoils" would be nice to see, for believability's sake. It's kind of a frivolous idea, but if enemies die without giving up their weapons, maybe their weapons could be shown to be broken, instead of just evaporating.

+ Maybe if a foot unit's aid is like A LOT higher than the con of a unit it's rescuing, it could still use at least some of the rest of its movement after rescuing. Forgive me, do units of high con already get less of a penalty when rescuing, or does every unit get stuck with the same deal when carrying somebody around? If they are, maybe units with really high aid could have the penalty lessened, or maybe there could be a skill for that.

+ When weapons are as common as they've been lately, the ability to repair them all may be unnecessary, but I think the player could be thrown a bone and have the blacksmiths that may be following us around at least repair some special weapons somewhat, say by adding 5-10 uses on a user's special tome or rapier-alike a limited number of times. Hammernes would still fully restore a weapon, of course.

I also like an idea Hika mentioned in a topic long gone, where different units could specialize in different types of their weapon category, say swordsmen who're extra effective with armorslayers or killing edges, archers extra effective with longbows, axemen trained in using halberds well, etc. Somebody who uses a reaver weapon really well might be a weird idea, but it'd be interesting.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Rehab

[Othin]

Credit to Smash for bringing up Trample. The only thing I've ever said about Trample was that it wasn't my idea. Personally, I think it could be interesting, but mounted units aren't really the ones who need more skills.

I agree about skills with reliable, tactical implications. To bring it up again for its relevance, Berwick Saga offers many examples of how this can work. A couple of archer characters have a skill like the one you described for Knights: they can spend their turn preparing an attack, then use the attack when an enemy enters their range on the following turn. If they hit, the enemy's turn ends immediately. Combat skills typically can be activated by command in exchange for either not moving before attacking, giving up something in the battle itself, or waiting several turns before using the skill again. A few good examples, with the full list here:

Surprise: Can be activated when not moving before attacking; negates an enemy's counterattacks.

Deathmatch: Can be activated when attacking an enemy able to counterattack; locks the two into five rounds of battle or until one dies.

Rapid-Fire: Can be activated every five turns to attack with a bow three times consecutively.

Skills like these could be added to an FE game either on a class basis or on a character basis, both to further differentiate characters and to give enemies some fancy new tricks to work around. Of course, there are many, many more ways skills like these could be added to an FE game, such as some of the things you described. Berwick Saga offers a demonstration of just a few of those ways, and through it, we can see many of them working quite well.

[Rehab]

Oh cool, missed that ability for archers before when I looked over the table, that's even better.

[Anouleth]

this one plz

[Rehab]

Some story or dialogue recognition of reclassing would be nice, if probably limited by the endless possibilities. Maybe a game recognizing if you've reclassed a lot of units, along the lines of how FE7 had some alternate chapters depending on whether your fighters/mercs or mages were higher in levels.

this one plz

[Othin]

Or just no reclassing, since it makes no sense and only serves to tear down the biggest distinction between characters, as well as greatly limiting many aspects of the game.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Othin

[Onmi]

I will keep saying Squad/Tri/Dual Battle System until it gets in. Simply so A. You can field that large army of yours, B. While keeping the overall spaces on the field the same, it drastically increases the number of soldiers on both sides, adding to the war-feel of the games, C. for the various tactical decision the system brings with it. D. Because it ensures that if they player is unsure of a unit (considering first time player who doesn't want to wait for Serenes to detail every little detail before diving in) that they can attach a new unit to a strong squad, to see how it handles.

It's occured to me that some people might not actually know what this system is... I will update this space after having a good rest and becoming coherent until then, have a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZDvyGHgbcas#t=46s

[Elieson]

I've been longing for a system where there are no mounts, but instead, units can sacrifice X% of stats to temporarily ride a mount and gain Y movement, assigned at the beginning of a chapter. I say temporarily, because I also think mounts should be targetable. Weaker, and targettable. Flying mounts cause dmg when they are killed and you fall from 30 ft above the ground.

Imagine. A Falco knight carrying your lord over a mountain range, and the magical unicorn being shot down, hurting you a bit for the fall, and forcing you to traverse the rest of the peaks by foot.

[BrightBow]

Personally, I think they should really finally nerf Cavaliers and Paladins. As far as I can see they make pretty much any other class that doesn't have some sort of utility like staffs or lock-picking obsolete:

-The Fighter has more attack then the Cavalier but that doesn't matter if the enemies die in 2 hits either way. Besides, they are slower and less likely to double so they probably end up dealing less damage in the long run.

-The Myrmidon is all about speed at the cost of everything else but the game mechanics being what they are you only need to have four more agility to double. Any speed more then that is mostly obsolete and enemies are usually weak enough that the horsies can still double.

-The Archer can attack at range. The Cavalier has Javelins who would be just as well if it wasn't for the fact that the universe hates Archers and their bad states mean that Javelins do actually better then bows.

-Mages can target Res but enemies these days actually have Res and tomes have low power so Mages suck theses days.

-Armors have high def but suck at everything else. Cavaliers have enough Hp to survive the enemy turn anyway so they do just as well.

And that's all before you factor in the high movement and the Weapon triangle control...

Anyway, for starters I would deny Cavaliers the ability to double attack.

Also even ignoring their low bases and lack of enemy phase I think the Archers main problem is that you usually would want them to weaken an enemy without getting in range and then have somebody else finish them off without needing to fear a counterattack. But they get hardly any exp that way, even ignoring the lack of enemy phase. Maybe they should get an manually activate-able skill that allows them to get half of the Exp if a unit they attacked gets killed by somebody else during the turn.

Edited March 18, 2012 by BrightBow

[Onmi]

BrightBow... that's incredibly silly for multiple reasons

1. The inability to double attack would just put the cavaliers where Archers are now, relegated to 'Neverused' status.

2. I think RD showed that Paladins can very easily be relegated to near-useless status even with the advantages they usually get.

You want to buff archers here's a few.

1. Archers move unimpaired through forest terrain, given how many of them claim to be hunters the tree's really shouldn't slow them down.

2. Constant 2-3 range, because why do you have a bow that can only hit 5 feet in front of you?

3. Slayer weapons. Specialized bows that slay specific unit types, every other weapon type gets them so why not?

4. Better bases. an Archer has no player-phase, unless they get a Player Phase or have a way of achieving a Player Phase (promotion bonus?) they need to start as essentially your strongest unit.

5. Various ranged bows, giving the Archer the ability to retreat behind allied lines and fire even at a distance.

6. Terrain Bonuses to Range

7. Hit Penalties to Range. Give Archers back Range 1 but have them take a penalty for close range shots (until Tier 2)

But this isn't a Balancing topic it's a 'new mechanics' topic. So all of that was pretty irrelevant.

[Othin]

Seems to me it could work out well enough to just add useful skills and not give as many of them to mounted characters.

Personally, I'd say double attacking as easily as you can in most of the games is already overpowered, but eh.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Othin

[Onmi]

Not saying it isn't but saying "One class, no matter what, can NOT double attack" is a huge blow to that class. There is a reason Pursuit is considered essentiall for FE4, there is a reason High Speed units prioritize the tier-lists when you think of combat units, there is a reason slow classes and characters are often low tier. It's of course not all ABOUT double attacking you need the strength behind it and all that. I am simply saying, in no way is "Everyone else but you can double" good class balance. Not that this is a balance thread.

Onto mechanics, I think more subtle differences to the various weapons rather than "Strong and heavy, medium strength and medium weight, light and weak (Which isn't how I would describe swords anyway)

Axes inflict defensive debuffs, Lances have innate piercing Or can all attack from range (with a hit debuff), Swords can... I don't know it's 6 AM for crying out loud. Add a 'Parry' Skill which decreases damage?

Edited March 18, 2012 by Onmi

[BwdYeti]

Maybe always attacking an extra time at the end of combat? (twice on a normal attack, 3 times on double, 5 on brave double)? Would be a worthwhile bonus to make up for no throwing weapons and would help out Myrms/Swordmasters, though overall sword mgt would need some small reduction to prevent ridiculous damage output

[Thor Odinson]

I don't think high damage output is really an issue of unbalance if they lack a substantial means of 1-2 range anyway, and SM/Myrms in general have poor str to start with. Unless you nerf the shit out of 1-2 range ala FE12 or something. Maybe the follow-up could be half damage?

[Anouleth]

Most of these ideas are super lame. You know what wouldn't be lame? A skill gauge system that lets you activate skills like Adept or something without having to rely on the RNG. In general I would like to see more skills that take the form of command abilities, like, I don't know:

-Meditate: returns biorhythm to Best

-Prayer: next attack that would kill you instead misses

-Provoke: enemies are forced to attack you over other units

-Hide: enemies are forced to attack other units over you

I would also like to see some sort of AW COP system, where you can select a unit to be your "commander" in battle. Different units will give different passive bonuses and once per chapter, they can use their action to give all allied units a different bonus or some other cool effect (like healing everyone or dealing damage to all enemies). Enemy commanders could get them too!

Maybe always attacking an extra time at the end of combat? (twice on a normal attack, 3 times on double, 5 on brave double)? Would be a worthwhile bonus to make up for no throwing weapons and would help out Myrms/Swordmasters, though overall sword mgt would need some small reduction to prevent ridiculous damage output

You'd really just need to add more HP to enemies, but that's a pretty decent solution. The "pursuit" attack adds only 50% damage rather than doubling damage output.

I remember dondon having an idea that he called "super attack", where if you have 4 more skill than the enemy, you can double your strength on your attack, and classes would either have access to double attack or super attack. That was a pretty neat idea.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Anouleth

[Celice]

I'd like to see a randomized mode, where treasures, shop contents, enemy and allied inventories, are all capable of playing roulette. Slight chances for rare items would make the mode more pleasing, and there can be different levels of content so that the randomized items aren't skewed totally one way or another.

[dondon151]

I remember dondon having an idea that he called "super attack", where if you have 4 more skill than the enemy, you can double your strength on your attack, and classes would either have access to double attack or super attack. That was a pretty neat idea.

Or they could have access to neither. That would balance out mounted units while letting them retain good stats.

[Swordsalmon]

Onto mechanics, I think more subtle differences to the various weapons rather than "Strong and heavy, medium strength and medium weight, light and weak (Which isn't how I would describe swords anyway)

Axes inflict defensive debuffs, Lances have innate piercing Or can all attack from range (with a hit debuff), Swords can... I don't know it's 6 AM for crying out loud. Add a 'Parry' Skill which decreases damage?

This is an idea I've been looking at for a while (And wanted to implement in a hack). Instead of debuffs, I was thinking more of weapons for abilities. Swords would have the greatest diversity of unique weapons, to make up for their lack of 1-2 range and weaker stats. For example, there'd be a Lunar and Solar Sword (Negates defense for the former, steals HP for the latter), and other weapons with imbued skills. It'd make melee fighters more interesting, at least.

[Anouleth]

For example, there'd be a Lunar and Solar Sword (Negates defense for the former, steals HP for the latter), and other weapons with imbued skills. It'd make melee fighters more interesting, at least.

Almost like, say, a Runesword...

[Othin]

This is an idea I've been looking at for a while (And wanted to implement in a hack). Instead of debuffs, I was thinking more of weapons for abilities. Swords would have the greatest diversity of unique weapons, to make up for their lack of 1-2 range and weaker stats. For example, there'd be a Lunar and Solar Sword (Negates defense for the former, steals HP for the latter), and other weapons with imbued skills. It'd make melee fighters more interesting, at least.

http://serenesforest.net/ts/swords.htm

It's worth noting that the Luna Sword and Mainstar are kinda ridiculous.

[Snowy_One]

I think the bigger problem with the weapon types is the units that wield them. Swordmasters have low STR usually and get stuck with the weakest type of weapon. Warriors have huge STR and get the strongest. They also have low SKL and get the weapon with the least hit.

I do agree with the notion of making them more diverse though, but I'm not sure how it could actually be done without seriously over or under powering one type.

Also, make the ranged swords (wind edges, sonic swords) easier to acquire!

[Swordsalmon]

http://serenesforest.net/ts/swords.htm

It's worth noting that the Luna Sword and Mainstar are kinda ridiculous.

Dang, I really need to play Tear Ring Saga.

Another related thought I've had is a weapon that has varying stats or abilities depending on the user. I think it'd be too complicated to work, but it'd be real interesting and fun.

[Dark Sage]

Also, make the ranged swords (wind edges, sonic swords) easier to acquire!

Wind Edges are buyable in FE10. That's about as easy to acquire as you can get .

[Anouleth]

I think the bigger problem with the weapon types is the units that wield them. Swordmasters have low STR usually and get stuck with the weakest type of weapon. Warriors have huge STR and get the strongest. They also have low SKL and get the weapon with the least hit.

Wow, it's almost like it's deliberately done in order to reinforce the differences between the various unit types!