Homosexuality in FE and gaming

[Esau of Isaac]

I've actually talked about this with my friends in Japan, and from what I've seen, that isn't the case. Homosexuality is generally accepted in fiction, largely due to its heavy romanticisation (I just made that word up): homo relationships and hetero relationships are practically the same; one person ends up being the "girl" in the relationship and the other the "man" (excuse me for gender stereotyping). They're often born out of admiration for each other rather than sexual feelings, stemming from ancient Samurai practises which are a complete misrepresentation of relationships altogether.

Reality, however, is quite different. Homo-relationships of most kinds are still quite uncommon and seen as a little weird, and people aren't as uncaring about them as you might think.

This is correct, as far as I can tell through conversations with Japanese natives and personal research. The fact that pairings are popular in fiction does not dictate how the public perceives it. Japan's culture as a whole is still quite insular compared to western standards, and as a whole Japanese society certainly puts effort into stamping out unwholesome individuality.

It could be argued, actually, that rampant representation of homosexual pairings both male and female in manga form is a direct result of escapism from the disapproving eyes of Japanese society. In any case, one should not allow themselves to be misled regarding Japan's interpretation of the many social conflicts that westerners face. It is not by any means an idyllic realm of accepting brothers and sisters; they are, like everyone else, a country of conflicting ideologies.

[-Cynthia-]

I could have sworn it happened. It might not of been with Aimee, but one of those conversations with Soren or Shinnon about her. It was a remark saying something along the lines of 'I don't want to make any commitment now because I'm young and a military leader, rather keep my options open and commit down the line'

Only thing I can find with regards to Ike wanting to settle down is Aimee herself saying that he should after the war is over...but if Aimee were canon on Ike'a feelings we'd have a different story.

Also, you made comments(As did others who you backed) which implied that you think I'm just saying this because I don't want Ike to be gay. I am just going with the argument that makes more sense to me.

People tend to believe what they prefer to be true.

[Rehab]

That's a bit of an unproven assumption, regardless. Not everybody cares that much.

[Snapdragon]

But I think it's silly to assume that a character is gay simply for really enjoying the company of another of the same gender.

I think its silly to assume that two characters are straight simply for enjoying the company of another of the opposite gender but it seems to be perfectly acceptable for people to do that. Even in real life.

I've actually talked about this with my friends in Japan, and from what I've seen, that isn't the case. Homosexuality is generally accepted in fiction, largely due to its heavy romanticisation (I just made that word up): homo relationships and hetero relationships are practically the same; one person ends up being the "girl" in the relationship and the other the "man" (excuse me for gender stereotyping). They're often born out of admiration for each other rather than sexual feelings, stemming from ancient Samurai practises which are a complete misrepresentation of relationships altogether.

Reality, however, is quite different. Homo-relationships of most kinds are still quite uncommon and seen as a little weird, and people aren't as uncaring about them as you might think.

I think she might have meant in more of a romantic two-girl friendship sort of sense. So romantic, but not expected to be sexual. Admittedly I know nothing about Japan's culture, so take this with a grain of salt.

I could have sworn it happened. It might not of been with Aimee, but one of those conversations with Soren or Shinnon about her. It was a remark saying something along the lines of 'I don't want to make any commitment now because I'm young and a military leader, rather keep my options open and commit down the line'

Hmmm... I honestly don't remember Ike ever saying anything of that nature. I can't see where he would have said such a line, either, since Ike doesn't seem to notice that girls blatantly flirt with him. It either goes right over his head, or he actively ignores it. If he did, though, unless he specified "wife" there is no reason "commitment" couldn't refer to a relationship with another guy. And, since he leaves Tellius either way, I can't see how he would be settling down with anyone not named Soren/Ranulf. Unless he... like, settles down with some woman abroad and makes his companion, who willingly made the commitment to leave the country with him, a third wheel. Which seems like a jerk move if you ask me. Especially if said companion is Soren.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I always figured Ike was asexual. I've said before and I'll say it again: a lack of interest in women =/= an interest in men. Ike has no interest in forming relationships with women, nor can he be paired with a female at the end of RD -- unlike the lords before him, who pretty clearly have a woman in his life. He leaves the continent either alone, or with Soren and Ranulf. And yet ... does this lack of female endings mean that Ike is gay? There really is no proof that he's gay. He may be closer to Soren (and his male companions) more so than he is with women who may or may have been interested in him, but that's not really proof in itself. Does he show interest in men? Because all Ike seems to be interested in (to me) is fighting, fighting, and to a much lesser extent food. I suspect Ike is just not interested in relationships, whether with women or with men. Whatever is between him and, say, Soren seems to be just platonic.

I think Ike is asexual. He finds the idea of women digging him kinda creepy. He expresses friendship with most of the ladies actually. With Mia, its a friendly competitive thing. With Titania, its a big sister/mum figure/commander thing. With Elincia, its a employee/employer/friend type thing. It seems with Elincia, she sorta kinda has some feeling there but when Geoffrey starts showing up, she kinda doesnt have that attitude with Ike anymore. Ike makes it rather clear that hes not interested that way. He plans on leaving court at the end of PoR. Huge indicator that nah, hes not into Elincia. (He does, however respect her a great deal)

With Ranulf, Ike is just really good friends with him. They both have a mutual respect for each other and can open up to each other more easily about just...stuff in general. Ike says in RD that Ranulf can come and bitch and moan about Skrimir and anything else if he wants. Thats just two guys being friends. With Soren...its a little more complicated. While im not opposed to them having a potentially gay relationship (because it would make sense especially on Soren's end.), somehow i doubt thats what Ike's all about there. Prior to A support in PoR, Ike more or less sees Soren as this really smart friend. Soren is pretty sharp and helps Ike with various things. When they support, Ike starts seeing Soren open up more and show more emotion. The C support has Ike saying: "Despite what the others say, deep down youre just a big softy." Sorens like "excuse me?" Shocked that Ike was catching on to this. This is why he feels he can come to Ike about his past. (something he had to get off his chest and couldnt with anyone else.) When Soren tells Ike about his past, Ike responds with "So what? That changes nothing." and Soren is like "holy crap..." and thus grows closer to Ike and the trust builds. In RD, in the secret convo, Soren tells Ike (and the player) about how they met. Ike begins to remember due to the memory charm lifting. At the end of that convo, Soren breaks down in tears. Ike comforts him. He says "Youre brilliant but when it comes to your emotions, yeah..." and gives him a hug. This could be interpreted as Ike having feelings for Soren or Ike comforting his friend. Their paired ending basically says Soren took off with him. "The only one he ever trusted." Doesnt say "love" but it could be thought that way. Since Soren just about hated or was indifferent to nearly everyone else, yeah. It could go both ways. I lean more toward "just friends" though.

How, is Florina/Hector one-sided? I like the coupling but I don't really remember tons of build up for either Florina------->Hector or Hector-------->Florina To some degree, it came off to me as being a canon crack paring.

Hector is the only guy Florina can support with. Its obvious shes very grateful to him for "saving" her from falling off her pegasus and out of the sky. She tries desperately throughout the supports to get enough nerve to tell him. This means she actually respects Hector enough to try to speak to him. She barely talks to any other men in the game. When she does finally spit it out, shes very pleased with herself and was all "I DID IT! I SAID IT!! YES!" (its fucking adorable) Hector is all "heh...i better keep an eye on you." They eventually get married and have a kid. (if they are paired.) Florina doesnt object to Hector saying he better look out for her at all. It implies shes no longer afraid of him at all. With Lyn, it seems more like close friends.

Sophia, while I'm not going to get into a discussion on whether Florina may be lesbian or not, I want to point out that her "I love you!" towards Lyn was not, to me, "plain as day in a context that completely screamed romance". I've heard girls say that to each other, when they're overexcited or just really happy about something. In other words, it did not stand out to me as anything romantic.

Agreed. It seemed to me that Florina loved Lyn as a best friend than anything else. It read to me: "I love you as a friend and ill help fight for you! Or serve!"

As for Raven and Lucius, yeah that actually does come off a bit...yeah. I think they both have feelings for each other. But Lucius can also get with Serra so *shrug*.

Overall i dont have an issue with this sort of thing popping up in games. What gets me is that some people have shipping goggles strapped to their faces and dont realize that things can be interpreted in various ways. Its not always "they are in love."

[Sunwoo]

The thing about Soren and Ike is that it may well be one-sided, but ONLY one-sided. I can definitely see Soren having feelings for Ike and Ike only, making him "Ike"-sexual and not gay. (Because even if Ike were female, or if Soren were female, I think Soren would still feel the same way. It's because it's IKE, the first person who was nice to him.) But even if Soren does like Ike "that way", does Ike himself feel the same way? Or does Ike just see Soren as a companion? The thing is, I don't think Ike sees Soren as anything more than a close friend. All the "hints" between them just seem like friendship to me. There's really nothing in Ike's mannerisms that screams to me, "I'm a sexual being!"

[Loki Laufeyson]

It could also be argued that Soren may not have those kinds of feelings at all and just cares about Ike (as a dear friend) because Ike is the only one who gave a shit. Soren does have a sense of humor (especially regarding the Ike/Aimee debacle) about Ike potentially having partners. Like, he teases Ike about it in PoR. "I got a wonderful present from your admirer, Ikey-poo!" and in RD hes like "NO DONT DO IT! ITS A TRAP! She'll spread it all over Tellius! Holy crap! You'll never live it down!" So its clear hes not like super jealous that Aimee digs Ike. So yeah, they could be platonic life partners. Someone whos madly in love with someone else isnt gonna be razzing that person about some girl digging them. (most of the time...)

[Sunwoo]

I'm just saying that if someone wanted to argue that Soren was gay for Ike or felt that way about Ike, it's probably a lot easier to argue it from that angle than by saying "Ike is gay." I personally don't think Soren's gay. I just think he cares strongly about Ike, regardless of "how" he feels about Ike. But when people try to argue that "Ike is gay; look at how he and Soren get along," I'd think that would say more about how Soren feels towards Ike than vice versa. Still, I don't think the dialogue in the game gives me enough reason to believe that either Ike or Soren are gay.

[Agro]

I think she might have meant in more of a romantic two-girl friendship sort of sense. So romantic, but not expected to be sexual. Admittedly I know nothing about Japan's culture, so take this with a grain of salt.

Grain of salt taken. For the record, we were actually talking about romantic relationships versus romantic friendships, so both came up.

[Popo]

I think you guys are thinking too far into this. Most characters don't have their sexuality stated, and are easily left up to the player's imagination if they don't have marriages in their endings.

Precisely this. The beauty of all these characters and all these support conversations is that they reveal just enough to tease the player and encourage them to think about the relationships further, implying but almost never outwardly stating that something is one way or another. I tend to just call it as I see it personally; if I think that a character is straight, so be it, and if not, then I accept them as gay, and I don't take offense when someone disagrees with me. It's meant to be up for debate, in my opinion, and I think it's a lot more fun this way then to try and definitively classify a character by their sexuality.

She clings to Lyn in an adorable manner, and even says "I love you!" plain as day in a context that completely screamed romance to Lyn right at the conclusion of Lyn's arc.

Sophia, while I'm not going to get into a discussion on whether Florina may be lesbian or not, I want to point out that her "I love you!" towards Lyn was not, to me, "plain as day in a context that completely screamed romance". I've heard girls say that to each other, when they're overexcited or just really happy about something. In other words, it did not stand out to me as anything romantic.

I didn't see Florina's comments as romantic either, although my personal beliefs right out of the gate were that Lyn is straight, and that Florina has difficulty getting a hold on her androphobia because she lacks maturity as opposed to having homosexual tendencies.

--

I guess it's pretty plain as day that Merlinus is in love with Eliwood and Hector. Or, maybe he's just happy to be employed. ;3

[Loki Laufeyson]

Precisely this. The beauty of all these characters and all these support conversations is that they reveal just enough to tease the player and encourage them to think about the relationships further, implying but almost never outwardly stating that something is one way or another. I tend to just call it as I see it personally; if I think that a character is straight, so be it, and if not, then I accept them as gay, and I don't take offense when someone disagrees with me. It's meant to be up for debate, in my opinion, and I think it's a lot more fun this way then to try and definitively classify a character by their sexuality.

I didn't see Florina's comments as romantic either, although my personal beliefs right out of the gate were that Lyn is straight, and that Florina has difficulty getting a hold on her androphobia because she lacks maturity as opposed to having homosexual tendencies.

--

I guess it's pretty plain as day that Merlinus is in love with Eliwood and Hector. Or, maybe he's just happy to be employed. ;3

So much. Especially with Florina. Shes so young and scared of guys. She was raised by a straight laced (Fiora) chick and a money grubber (Farina) and yeah. Plus she enlisted in an army of ALL LADIES so shes not gonna have a lot of practice dealing with dudes and is afraid of them. So her support with Hector shows her growing a pair and finally talking to him.

Lyn can get together with a lot of dudes. Hector, Eliwood, Rath, Kent....If she even has any homosexual feelings its only Florinasexual. :P (which i highly doubt that their relationship was even such.)

Edited April 12, 2012 by Florina

[zahlman]

I've actually talked about this with my friends in Japan, and from what I've seen, that isn't the case. Homosexuality is generally accepted in fiction, largely due to its heavy romanticisation (I just made that word up): homo relationships and hetero relationships are practically the same; one person ends up being the "girl" in the relationship and the other the "man" (excuse me for gender stereotyping). They're often born out of admiration for each other rather than sexual feelings, stemming from ancient Samurai practises which are a complete misrepresentation of relationships altogether.

Reality, however, is quite different. Homo-relationships of most kinds are still quite uncommon and seen as a little weird, and people aren't as uncaring about them as you might think.

This is, after all, a culture where a comedian can be successful just by having an expression of being "hard gay" as literally his entire schtick. (Not to say that Haado Gei isn't hilarious. Anime fans in Quebec seem to think he's hilarious, and homosexuality is super-OK there even compared to the rest of Canada. But it's not an idea that could really have been invented just anywhere.)

Real homosexual relationships there certainly follow the seme/uke (tachi/neko for the women) model, too, or so I hear. This follows from traditional (this is a euphemism, really) attitudes towards heterosexual relationships being extended to everyone else.

That said, Tokyo does have a Pride Parade, according to my Googling. But they only started it this millenium, and have had to skip it a couple times.

----

I think its silly to assume that two characters are straight simply for enjoying the company of another of the opposite gender but it seems to be perfectly acceptable for people to do that. Even in real life.

Or it could be that they're assumed to be straight because (a) most people are straight + (b) there isn't evidence to the contrary?

----

Anyway, I don't really see how any of this matters for a game where, you know, there isn't any actual on-screen sex. Fanfic writers can and will do WTF-ever they want anyway.

Edited April 12, 2012 by zahlman

[Fenrir]

Only thing I can find with regards to Ike wanting to settle down is Aimee herself saying that he should after the war is over...but if Aimee were canon on Ike'a feelings we'd have a different story.

Oh my, I must have remembered this and thought Ike agreed with her. It was my impression that he at least sort of agreed with her, but my memory is probably failing me. That StefanxSoren thing IS true though, i fucking swear.

[Snapdragon]

Hector is the only guy Florina can support with. Its obvious shes very grateful to him for "saving" her from falling off her pegasus and out of the sky. She tries desperately throughout the supports to get enough nerve to tell him. This means she actually respects Hector enough to try to speak to him. She barely talks to any other men in the game. When she does finally spit it out, shes very pleased with herself and was all "I DID IT! I SAID IT!! YES!" (its fucking adorable) Hector is all "heh...i better keep an eye on you." They eventually get married and have a kid. (if they are paired.) Florina doesnt object to Hector saying he better look out for her at all. It implies shes no longer afraid of him at all. With Lyn, it seems more like close friends.

To me her being super proud of herself and whatnot can just as easily be a side-effect of her finally facing her fear. Wouldn't she have worked up the courage to apologize to any man she had happened to land her pony on? Hector's side is a little better but " You know... I'd better keep an eye on you. Don't leave my side on the battlefield. Gotta keep you from getting into trouble." (So your pegasus doesn't land on me again lol) isn't the most romantic thing ever. I know they have an ending. When I say canon crack I mean that it goes straight from A support to ending which comes off as a big leap to me. (Unless I'm not remembering something, I haven't played blazing sword in awhile.) They have barely met. I mean, they had 3 supports, but they didn't really talk at all in 2 of them.

Or it could be that they're assumed to be straight because (a) most people are straight + (b) there isn't evidence to the contrary?

Except we see lots of characters that show evidence of being straight (ignoring bisexuality here) so the gap in likelihood between an ambiguous character being straight or being gay shrinks.

Oh my, I must have remembered this and thought Ike agreed with her. It was my impression that he at least sort of agreed with her, but my memory is probably failing me. That StefanxSoren thing IS true though, i fucking swear.

I'm, like, 90% sure that's not true because I paired up Soren and Stefan once just to find out if it was true and I don't remember anything different happening. I think Soren just got his standard non-Ike ending. And Stefan got his only ending.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Snapdragon

[Nanami Touko]

Oh my, I must have remembered this and thought Ike agreed with her. It was my impression that he at least sort of agreed with her, but my memory is probably failing me. That StefanxSoren thing IS true though, i fucking swear.

You're probably thinking of FE9, where in Stefan and Soren's A support, he invites Soren to make a village with him. They don't actually have a paired ending in FE10.

[Life]

So they might be gay.

So?

What exactly are you trying to get at? That we should treat gay people differently? That's called discrimination, if I'm not mistaken.

[frat_tastic]

So they might be gay.

So?

What exactly are you trying to get at? That we should treat gay people differently? That's called discrimination, if I'm not mistaken.

I think the point was that if Ike is gay then this game is a pretty big step forward as far as inclusiveness in video games is concerned, mainly because he's the main character and the way they make it a total non-issue (there's nothing stereotypical about the way Ike acts, so if he's gay it's basically them saying gay people come in all shapes, sizes and attitudes. Like the previously mentioned Samus reveal at the end of Metroid).

Personally I think Ike is gay, but that's just me. It is kind of ambiguous I guess but I think there's more evidence to him being gay than not gay. I do think that the large amount of people saying that Ike can't be gay and that all of us are just reading into it too much are kind of indicative of society. Some of you are making it sound like its a bad thing for Ike to be gay. I don't think anyone is meaning to, but claiming that all of us are looking into it too much makes it sound like we're doing something wrong by thinking that, with a decent amount of evidence provided, Ike might be gay. Heterosexual privilege and all that.

[Anouleth]

I think the point was that if Ike is gay then this game is a pretty big step forward as far as inclusiveness in video games is concerned, mainly because he's the main character and the way they make it a total non-issue (there's nothing stereotypical about the way Ike acts, so if he's gay it's basically them saying gay people come in all shapes, sizes and attitudes. Like the previously mentioned Samus reveal at the end of Metroid).

Yeah because Samus wasn't revealed to be a hot curvaceous blonde chick in a bikini...

[frat_tastic]

Yeah because Samus wasn't revealed to be a hot curvaceous blonde chick in a bikini...

While it still objectified women, it was a major step forward in the fact that the main character was a woman who was a total badass. Hence the attitudes part.

[Snapdragon]

Before her we had Princess Peach so she's definitely a step up as far as gender roles go. And she spends a lot of time in armor that's not skimpy, for what it's worth. I think that even now that's kind of notable.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Snapdragon

[Rehab]

Yeah because Samus wasn't revealed to be a hot curvaceous blonde chick in a bikini...

Not sure I understand what you're getting at.

[nolongeractivesheep]

Before her we had Princess Peach so she's definitely a step up as far as gender roles go. And she spends a lot of time in armor that's not skimpy, for what it's worth. I think that even now that's kind of notable.

I think that this is probably one of the most notable things about Samus. For most of her run, she's had nothing but a massive bulky power suit. There's nothing sexual about it. Its just functional combat gear. And that is what makes her so often. Zero Mission has the Zero Suit, but it doesn't really come up again in the series, so the minor blunder isn't so bad. Now... I do detest Other-M for turning an incredibly strong female character in a whiny ponce that can't do anything without her commander's permission... But that's what happens when you let Team Ninja ruin your franchise.

Beyond that... Gender roles in games have been slowly evolving. Look to the Elder Scrolls series for an example of extreme gender equality. Everyone is just a person, gender is irrelevant. I think that as its becoming harder to continue to objectify women as sexual objects because more and more women are becoming the costumer, things are improving. Even if only slowly.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Sophia Aetheria

[Bluedoom]

Final Fantasy 6 had gender equality IMO. Actually, I think it centered around Terra and Celes more than anything. Oh yeah, and that Setzer was overtaken by his girlfriend. Sorta.

Yes I'm praising Final Fantasy 6. Again.

[Celice]

Beyond that... Gender roles in games have been slowly evolving. Look to the Elder Scrolls series for an example of extreme gender equality. Everyone is just a person, gender is irrelevant. I think that as its becoming harder to continue to objectify women as sexual objects because more and more women are becoming the costumer, things are improving. Even if only slowly.

Often times, the reason the gender is equalized is because the gender is irrelevant to a quest or character. The function simply doesn't call for a gender or not. Now, there are genders-specific characters which are relevant, as well as themes making the gender important (prostitution existed in the early builds of Daggerfall; Morrowind has sex slaves and romance options tailors for specific genders, but not all genders).

But overall, as the function (intention) of characters aren't dictated by gender in the Elder Scroll games, it simply isn't something to consider. Whereas in other media, obviously, gender plays a specific thematic element of an overall "image" being conveyed.

[Agro]

Final Fantasy 6 had gender equality IMO. Actually, I think it centered around Terra and Celes more than anything. Oh yeah, and that Setzer was overtaken by his girlfriend. Sorta.

It at least featured women in (more) powerful roles, but I think their character designs really detract from that. You only have to look at Celes' costume to notice that one >_>