[FE13] Who's up for a draft?

[Westbrick]

I'm not convinced they are. Could you elaborate?

It would promote an entirely different style of play: instead of focusing on LTC, instead players will be trying to manipulate drafts to reach chapters where they can maximize experience, as well as trying to squeeze experience out of Gaidens instead of rushing through them. I'm personally opposed to this.

I don't see any reason for us to jump to this as opposed to my proposal, which would eliminate the bizarrity of undrafted units freely acting as bait and meatshields in any run.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, there seems to be two choices on the table now: either letting undrafted, force-deployed units do whatever they want in the chapters they arrive in, or letting those same units only meatshield in the chapters they arrive in. Why choose the former over the latter?

[Othin]

It would promote an entirely different style of play: instead of focusing on LTC, instead players will be trying to manipulate drafts to reach chapters where they can maximize experience, as well as trying to squeeze experience out of Gaidens instead of rushing through them. I'm personally opposed to this.

Having an extra couple of turns in some maps is hardly going to rip the style of the draft to shreds.

Even so, if those chapters get changed up for a little variety instead of being rushed like the rest of the game, that sounds like undeniably a good thing.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, there seems to be two choices on the table now: either letting undrafted, force-deployed units do whatever they want in the chapters they arrive in, or letting those same units only meatshield in the chapters they arrive in. Why choose the former over the latter?

Well, if we're restricting the meatshielding to just the chapters where they arrive, that's another matter entirely from what I was mainly objecting to.

Regardless, I maintain my stance. If a unit is on the field, they may as well be used to their fullest extent rather than forcing the player to limit themselves within a map's gameplay.

[PKL]

The way i see it is that keeping undrafted units out of combat is a skill in itself. There should definetely be a penalty even for characters that join in turn 2. Of course, if it is impossible to keep them out of combat they should just be free for the chapter like FE12 palla in ch3, the yus/ogma and sirius in ch4 and merric in ch10.

[Westbrick]

Having an extra couple of turns in some maps is hardly going to rip the style of the draft to shreds.

Even so, if those chapters get changed up for a little variety instead of being rushed like the rest of the game, that sounds like undeniably a good thing.

So just to be clear: your plan is to allow any and all Gaiden chapters / children chapters to have a certain turn limit of 5-10 chapters, correct? What about children chapters for characters not recruited by a drafter?

Regardless, I maintain my stance. If a unit is on the field, they may as well be used to their fullest extent rather than forcing the player to limit themselves within a map's gameplay.

And my position here remains the same too: while using predeployed units seems unavoidable, they shouldn't get a free pass for combat. Should we take this up to a vote?

[Ema Skye]

If Olivia's already a free unit, the its kinda pointless to say that she's free in Ch.11 :P

Although I lack the game, I think you could handle drafting the children the same way people do in FE4 (draft the mom, get the kid as well). There's 10 moms (excluding Olivia), so I would start by drafting them (set the draft for 5 people; everyone gets 2 moms and their kids). Then draft everyone else. If I'm counting right, that leaves 15 units remaining, so then reverse the order and everyone gets three. So players would get 13 units, which seems like enough. So a team would look something like this:

-(Krom, Lucina), (MU, Mark), Olivia, Frederick

-(Mom 1, Kid 1), (Mom 2, Kid 2)

-Spare Unit 1, Spare Unit 2, Spare Unit 3 (probably the fathers for the kids)

I also think the Nosferatu ban is kind of silly, possibly due to it being unprecedented, but also for the following reason. Drafts aren't exactly supposed to be fair (the guy that gets the most mounts in FE9 drafts has an advantage over the rest, the dude who gets Sylvia/Laylea in the FE4 draft gets an advantage). If the people before you draft Sariya and Henry, take someone like Miriel and reclass her to Dark Mage to get something close to similar.

@Above post: I would do this. Undrafted units that have forced deployment in a chapter may only enter combat during the enemy phase. They must not have weapons equipped.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Lucina

[PKL]

From the playthrough i saw, i do not see forced deployed character meatshielding as neccesary. Miriel starts near the group. Tiamo starts away from enemies. Not sure about the others though.

[Othin]

So just to be clear: your plan is to allow any and all Gaiden chapters / children chapters to have a certain turn limit of 5-10 chapters, correct? What about children chapters for characters not recruited by a drafter?

Yes.

I see no reason not to allow children chapters even if the relevant characters are not recruited. Of course, if you haven't recruited one or both parents, getting the chapter would require taking massive penalties - if someone chooses to make that trade, I say let them.

And my position here remains the same too: while using predeployed units seems unavoidable, they shouldn't get a free pass for combat. Should we take this up to a vote?

Eh. I have my own, other ideas about things to try with drafts, so I'll just bring this with them when I get around to actually making a draft.

Say, does the Nosferatu ban include Inverse's Darkness? I foresee a lot of RNG abusing with shiny tiles for it if not.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Othin

[Westbrick]

Yes.

I see no reason not to allow children chapters even if the relevant characters are not recruited. Of course, if you haven't recruited one or both parents, getting the chapter would require taking massive penalties - if someone chooses to make that trade, I say let them.

I'll have to bow out of this particular draft if this is the ruleset we end up adopting. Focusing my efforts on grinding for supports to go to all the different children chapters doesn't seem like something I'd enjoy or find strategically satisfying. But if that's what the rest want to do, then don't let me stop you! For what it's worth, I prefer the set-total-turns approach.

Say, does the Nosferatu ban include Inverse's Darkness? I foresee a lot of RNG abusing with shiny tiles for it if not.

Nah. I think your point about availability is a good one. ...I also didn't realize that you could get powerful items like Darkness from shiny tiles. That makes me think we should ban them!

---

From the playthrough i saw, i do not see forced deployed character meatshielding as neccesary. Miriel starts near the group. Tiamo starts away from enemies. Not sure about the others though.

This would suggest that we simply ban undrafted units from doing anything at all, even meatshielding. Which I'd be fine with. I just don't think we should go to the other extreme and have them be able to not only meatshield, but participate in combat/staff use/chest opening/etc.

Oh, and I suppose that since Olivia is free, Azure will have to be free too. That's 7 total freebies.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Westbrick

[Othin]

I'll have to bow out of this particular draft if this is the ruleset we end up adopting. Focusing my efforts on grinding for supports to go to all the different children chapters doesn't seem like something I'd enjoy or find strategically satisfying. But if that's what the rest want to do, then don't let me stop you! For what it's worth, I prefer the set-total-turns approach.

Nah. I think your point about availability is a good one. ...I also didn't realize that you could get powerful items like Darkness from shiny tiles. That makes me think we should ban them!

What grinding? The draft is still heavily built around turns, with little time to waste; there's no possibility of grinding with any such ruleset. Yes, you'd want to make the best use of your limited time to get things you need, and in FE13, supports are one of those things. That's just part of how FE13 works.

The problem with such a ban is that it's just not possible to implement. You have to avoid the shiny tiles completely, even if they might be in a space you would want to cross for whatever reason? For effects that are normally harmless, as opposed to just banning Inverse's Darkness alone? I mean, I can see the merits of wanting players to not abuse for some great item every time they find one, but...

In any case, I should note that I'm not participating in any drafts no matter what for now. All three of my files are in use: I'm not erasing any for a draft file until sometime after I finish Lunatic to free up that slot. Again, I do intend to make a draft myself for this game sometime after that point, which will contain different rules. This is not that draft; this is your draft. So as vehement as I may be in making suggestions, I'm still saying all of this under the understanding that your word is final, not with the goal of turning this into something completely different that you wouldn't want to touch - just as I would likely never touch an LTC draft. Of course, then there's the question of who would participate.

[Paperblade]

I haven't played the game or so much as watched videos of it.

However, I must ask: what utility do Lucina, Azure, and Mark have that is so unique and overbearing that if they were drafted, whoever had them would have a nearly insurmountable advantage that warrants making them free? From my understanding they are just combat units that join about a third of the way through the game. Last I checked, Gerik wasn't breaking FE8 drafts over his knee.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Paperblade

[Kon]

From what I can gather, it's not so much that those particular children are so gamebreakingly amazing (although I'm sure that they could be) but that their set parents are free. So keeping in with the Mother/Child being drafted together the free units' children are made free. It's kind of like having Sigurd and Celice free in FE4 drafts but not really).

[Paperblade]

Sigurd and Celice are lords, so the comparison is... not apt at all

[cheetah7071]

I personally would argue against making any of them free (though their gaidens would be free for the first however many turns as usual).

[dondon151]

Why is Nosferatu banned when its users don't even have any movement advantages? Sariya and Henry also join relatively late.

Nosferatu was good back in FE6 and FE12, and you don't see it banned there.

Edited May 25, 2012 by dondon151

[Othin]

Why is Nosferatu banned when its users don't even have any movement advantages? Sariya and Henry also join relatively late.

Nosferatu was good back in FE6 and FE12, and you don't see it banned there.

Was Nosferatu available to buy for cheap whenever you wanted in FE6 and FE12?

Henry doesn't stand out too much with it because of his low Spd, but Saria, MU, and anyone else that becomes a Dark Mage with good enough Mag/Spd/Def can devour entire fields of enemies due to the enemy phase healing. You can't get that kind of destruction any other way in this game, especially because it's one of the few ways to get good, renewable 1-2 range on a unit that can survive repeated attacks.

Movement also isn't such an issue because of Double making them able to keep pace with your move mobile units.

[Westbrick]

What grinding? The draft is still heavily built around turns, with little time to waste; there's no possibility of grinding with any such ruleset. Yes, you'd want to make the best use of your limited time to get things you need, and in FE13, supports are one of those things. That's just part of how FE13 works.

The big problem I have with this approach, a problem you haven't touched on yet, is the inevitable need to support grind in order to reach all the children chapters. Since you get a certain number of turns for each additional map free, the strategy for the early- and mid-game becomes less "race to the finish" and more "race to the finish while maximizing support points."

That sounds like something that could make for a fun draft, but I'm not sure it's the draft I want to do at the moment. What I'm interested in now is what total turn amont would be deemed appropriate. 20? 30? I don't think anything more than 35 would be warranted, so interested in hearing thoughts on this.

The problem with such a ban is that it's just not possible to implement. You have to avoid the shiny tiles completely, even if they might be in a space you would want to cross for whatever reason? For effects that are normally harmless, as opposed to just banning Inverse's Darkness alone? I mean, I can see the merits of wanting players to not abuse for some great item every time they find one, but...

Here's a solution: shiny tiles can be used, but any weapons collected from said tiles can't.

---

From what I can gather, it's not so much that those particular children are so gamebreakingly amazing (although I'm sure that they could be) but that their set parents are free. So keeping in with the Mother/Child being drafted together the free units' children are made free. It's kind of like having Sigurd and Celice free in FE4 drafts but not really).

This is basically right. Lucina and Mark are far and away the best children, but they're not game-breakingly good (although Mark, if reclassed the right way, can be incredible during endgame). Remember, this is largely an experimental first draft; whether or not so many freebies are deemed necessary in later drafts remains to be seen.

@Kon By the way, is that custom mugshot in your avatar from a romhack? Because I get the feeling I've seen it somewhere before.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Westbrick

[Othin]

The big problem I have with this approach, a problem you haven't touched on yet, is the inevitable need to support grind in order to reach all the children chapters. Since you get a certain number of turns for each additional map free, the strategy for the early- and mid-game becomes less "race to the finish" and more "race to the finish while maximizing support points."

That sounds like something that could make for a fun draft, but I'm not sure it's the draft I want to do at the moment. What I'm interested in now is what total turn amont would be deemed appropriate. 20? 30? I don't think anything more than 35 would be warranted, so interested in hearing thoughts on this.

Here's a solution: shiny tiles can be used, but any weapons collected from said tiles can't.

What grinding? You can easily make supports within the main story while getting very low turn counts.

Preparing for the future is part of FE. No matter how much you want to encourage rushing, that's never all there is to it: there's always a need to make sure your characters, items, etc. also meet the requirements. No playthrough based on rushing will ever be just a race to the finish; it will always be "race to the finish while adequately preparing for later maps", just as you describe. No matter what the status is of sidequests, supports are always an important future consideration in FE13.

I'm also completely confused as to how you suggest my proposal would make the draft less turn-based than yours when your proposal would allow for at least as many free turns per player as mine would under draft conditions where each player only has a handful of mothers anyway, and under your proposal the free turns would be possible to distribute more freely among all sidequests anyway. You're not making any sense.

But I do like your new proposal for shiny tiles. This would essentially equate to a ban on all lost items, including Inverse's Darkness, as under these rules that would be the only way to obtain them in the first place. Which would make the rule even more clear-cut.

[Psych]

By making Lucina and Mark free, you can pair Krom and MU. You just got three units with Rainbow Cry.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Papermate

[Paperblade]

This is basically right. Lucina and Mark are far and away the best children, but they're not game-breakingly good (although Mark, if reclassed the right way, can be incredible during endgame). Remember, this is largely an experimental first draft; whether or not so many freebies are deemed necessary in later drafts remains to be seen.

Right, except Sigurd and Celice are free because they're lords and are required to Seize. They're free for the same reason Roy, Ike, and Hector are free. Lucina isn't forced fielding or required for anything to my knowledge, and you don't even have to recruit Mark or Azure.

Personally I would err on the side of not banning/freeing units, but eh.

[Westbrick]

What grinding? You can easily make supports within the main story while getting very low turn counts.

Preparing for the future is part of FE. No matter how much you want to encourage rushing, that's never all there is to it: there's always a need to make sure your characters, items, etc. also meet the requirements. No playthrough based on rushing will ever be just a race to the finish; it will always be "race to the finish while adequately preparing for later maps", just as you describe. No matter what the status is of sidequests, supports are always an important future consideration in FE13.

There's a difference between "preparing to minimize turn counts" and "preparing to fulfill a number of arbitrarily-added conditions that wouldn't apply in a normal runthrough." It's bad logic to justify a set of rules by pretending that set of rules is somehow the default one, which it obviously isn't.

I'm also completely confused as to how you suggest my proposal would make the draft less turn-based than yours when your proposal would allow for at least as many free turns per player as mine would under draft conditions where each player only has a handful of mothers anyway, and under your proposal the free turns would be possible to distribute more freely among all sidequests anyway. You're not making any sense.

Where is the confusion, exactly? I'm suggesting that we grant all players an equal cap on Gaiden/children chapter turn counts, which don't *have* to be used, but can be if the draft team demands it. A hypothetical 25 turn cap would allow for about 3-4 children/Gaiden chapters to be done reasonably, as opposed to your proposal, which would essentially require going to all Gaiden chapters and trying to maximize children units. I dunno, doesn't sound very fun or strategic to my ears.

But then there will be room for plenty of drafts, no?

---

Personally I would err on the side of not banning/freeing units, but eh.

You might be right, but we'll use this draft as a run to find out.

[Othin]

There's a difference between "preparing to minimize turn counts" and "preparing to fulfill a number of arbitrarily-added conditions that wouldn't apply in a normal runthrough." It's bad logic to justify a set of rules by pretending that set of rules is somehow the default one, which it obviously isn't.

Making supports gives children, and the possibility of Exp and items from the sidequests. Those are entirely ingame conditions, and I have not proposed anything that would add any other incentive.

your proposal, which would essentially require going to all Gaiden chapters and trying to maximize children units

where are you pulling this from

Somehow, your statements have become completely detached from reality, and you've found yourself arguing complete nonsense. I'm not sure what reasoning you have in mind for your statements, but I know there isn't the slightest bit of truth to it. Take a step back and explain exactly your reasoning for how you got to where you are so I can help you figure out where you got so mixed up.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Othin

[CT075]

question:

since when does having more children units necessarily mean "lower turns"

because past a certain point having more units does not clear a rout map any faster

if you're THAT worried about it, then make the limit some stupidly low number like 5 or 3 turns so that the truly strategery-oriented among us will get their (supposed) benefit where the rest of us need the trade off

[Ciarre]

I think Azure should be draftable. It's not like the sidequest is required and Olivia is free for all. So the person who drafts him gets to go on the sidequest, the rest doesn't have to bother. Just because Olivia is free doesn't mean he has to be too.

I have similar thoughts on Lucina, since she joins in the middle of the game and isn't required to beat the game either. She also doesn't have to seize or do other lordly duties and her death isn't even a game over.

[Othin]

I have similar thoughts on Lucina, since she joins in the middle of the game and isn't required to beat the game either. She also doesn't have to seize or do other lordly duties and her death isn't even a game over.

My main thinking about Lucina is her weapon, especially its impact on the final boss. The difference between one and two characters being able to do substantial damage to a tough enemy is a pretty big one in terms of time spent on the Final.

[PKL]

I think Azure should be draftable. It's not like the sidequest is <i>required</i> and Olivia is free for all. So the person who drafts him gets to go on the sidequest, the rest doesn't have to bother. Just because Olivia is free doesn't mean he has to be too. I have similar thoughts on Lucina, since she joins in the middle of the game and isn't required to beat the game either. She also doesn't have to seize or do other lordly duties and her death isn't even a game over.

I have similar thoughts on Titania, she joins in earlygame and isnt required to beat the game either. She also doesnt have to seize or do other lordly duties and her death isnt even a game over. See how poor your reasoning for no free lucina is? I can easily name a lot of free characters that are not lords or are required to beat the game yet they are still free for the purpose of balancing the draft/evening the unit count. Also, i think its too early to start banning stuff like nosferatu just because some people who played the game think its broken. For all we know, nosferatu might just be overhyped and will die down as new/other strats are explored.