How difficult is Awakening?

[Gold Vanguard]

Reclassing is viable, but not worth it in this case. If you're not grinding, it's best to just go Dark Mage --> Sorcerer and stay that way, or Strategist --> Dark Mage --> Sorcerer for MU. Other classes are just not worth bothering with.

Although I'm not sure why one would actually do this in the first place.

No, it isn't. Maybe Westbrick means HHM?

Also, from what I've found, the three difficulty levels never really get near-equal, not even with tacking a Sorcerer or two onto a team. I can believe that using just Krom and Sorcerer MU lets you trivialize everything, though.

Even more than in past games, it seems tiny teams are really overpowered in this game, especially because of the leveling allowed by Change Seals and the stat bonuses from Double. That's so boring, though. I've generally been attempting to use ~20 units per playthrough, which really isn't too useful when the total number available only ever goes up to 16, but the game is also much more interesting this way.

I should go into more detail about the difficulty levels. Enemies grow fast: from Ch17 on, the last third of the game, enemies all are promoted and using Silver weapons or better, even on Normal: the raw enemy strength, even relative to the increased raw player strength, is the highest it's ever been in the series. Of course, you also have more ways to address that, and that's fine. Enemies also charge on their own or in groups rather than ever waiting for you to lure out and pick off one or two: on any given map, about half the enemies will charge you from the start, and others are in groups that will start moving if you enter the range of any of them.

I haven't played far in Lunatic yet, but it gets really interesting. From the start, enemies are far stronger than your characters: in Ch2 in particular, enemies can often one-round your characters, at least if they're not in Double. Double gives small, useful stat bonuses at this point, but you also have to carefully get in and out of it to make sure you have the attackers available when you need them. Frederick winds up at the only character capable of taking on multiple enemies at once and surviving, but even he doesn't last too long, and he's vulnerable to occasional enemies with Hammers. You can catch up over time, but on anything I'd call a "normal" playthrough, it seems the enemies keep having tricks that force you to think like never before in the series.

But if most of your untis can get one shoted then how do get past does chapters?

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Have Fredrick double with peeps~

Edited June 6, 2012 by L95

[Othin]

Getting OHKOed isn't much of a risk for melee fighters, but getting doubled and 2HKOed is.

You really need Frederick on the field instead of supporting someone else, but even other characters can give enough of a Double bonus to tip the scales. For example, the base Double bonuses for a Cavalier are +2 Str, +1 Skl, +1 Spd, and +2 Def. That Spd and Def can make the difference: base Sol needs that +1 Spd to not get doubled by Soldiers in Ch2, while base Soiree needs it to not get doubled by Mercenaries in the same chapter. Soiree might also need the +2 Def to not get OHKOed by Barbarians in the same chapter.

Also, Krom can take care of himself a bit better than your other characters, but you still can't really let him take two attacks without healing. MU can also catch up to get ahead of your other characters with (relatively) solid stats and an Exp increase from War Experience, which you want to make use of whenever possible.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I mean having someone double W/Fred. Not him being the supporter.

[Othin]

Okay, that makes sense. Frederick has tolerable durability on his own, but not great. Sol and Soiree have trouble doing much else, so they're free to give those bonuses, especially the Str/Def, to him. What Frederick really wants is a good +Spd double to be able to actually double attack enemies himself, which he has a lot of trouble doing on his own. Of course, so does everyone else, since their Spd stats start out even worse, but Frederick tends to make better use of it. Then there's the issue that the three earliest candidates to stand out for +Spd doubles - Krom, Sumia, and Ronku - all have a lot else they can do even when not giving Spd to someone, such as using that Spd themselves.

[Westbrick]

Worth noting that Liz starts the game with 4 base speed, whereas the Prologue enemies start the game with at least 9. In other words, Liz either a) can never be in range of enemy units without being one-rounded (which can be difficult to do), or b) needs a double partner early on that gives speed.

[fatgamecat]

So no Sorcs, no DLC (or maybe just some DLC, like the mummy farms, etc.), etc.?

Challenge runs in FE13 won't be worth the grief. Whatever conditions you play under, there's going to be someone in the FE community mocking you for playing that way. Used a DLC? Noob. Did some grinding? Noob. Played a Sorc MU w/ Nosferatu? Noob. Reloaded from a save point for a level up? Noob. It never ends. My advice is to just enjoy the game and not bother trying to patch it up.

Edited June 7, 2012 by mjemirzian

[Othin]

Worth noting that Liz starts the game with 4 base speed, whereas the Prologue enemies start the game with at least 9. In other words, Liz either a) can never be in range of enemy units without being one-rounded (which can be difficult to do), or b) needs a double partner early on that gives speed.

I'd expect her to be OHKOed even if she didn't get doubled. I didn't have too hard of a time keeping her away, though, especially with Double.

So no Sorcs, no DLC (or maybe just some DLC, like the mummy farms, etc.), etc.?

Challenge runs in FE13 won't be worth the grief. Whatever conditions you play under, there's going to be someone in the FE community mocking you for playing that way. Used a DLC? Noob. Did some grinding? Noob. Played a Sorc MU w/ Nosferatu? Noob. Reloaded from a save point for a level up? Noob. It never ends.

I'd say any DLC use should be restricted to the character maps as opposed to the monster ones and just be one play each. I would recommend no use of the Wireless section, though, for SpotPass/Fame/whatever.

Also, there are no save points. Seems you can make Battle Saves in Casual, but not in Classic.

And I mean, I'm playing under those rules for my Lunatic run just because I think it's more fun, so why not? You could say the same about any challenge run, but they can still be the most fun ways to play a game, when they don't cut much into the options that constitute it.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Othin

[Westbrick]

I haven't run the numbers, but Liz survived plenty of single-shots in my Lunatic earlygame. Granted, it requires a little tile management, but not needing to baby her completely was pretty helpful.

[dondon151]

Enemies also charge on their own or in groups rather than ever waiting for you to lure out and pick off one or two: on any given map, about half the enemies will charge you from the start, and others are in groups that will start moving if you enter the range of any of them.

this featured pretty heavily in FE12 too

also i am not entirely convinced by the nosferatu argument when it was also virtually unlimited in FE6, didn't incur significant AS loss (-1 to -2 on the user), and had the potential to be very accurate due to supports. ray is nowhere near the best character in that game and niime's combat ability is halfway an afterthought.

certainly things are a bit different here and sorcs are more powerful than ever before, but i'm pretty sure they're not the best class in the game.

[Westbrick]

this featured pretty heavily in FE12 too

also i am not entirely convinced by the nosferatu argument when it was also virtually unlimited in FE6, didn't incur significant AS loss (-1 to -2 on the user), and had the potential to be very accurate due to supports. ray is nowhere near the best character in that game and niime's combat ability is halfway an afterthought.

certainly things are a bit different here and sorcs are more powerful than ever before, but i'm pretty sure they're not the best class in the game.

Then you'd be wrong. They are, without question, the best class in the series. The differences between FE6 and FE13 Nosferatanking should be fairly obvious: Shamans/Druids in 6 aren't nearly as bulky or as well-rounded as their FE13 counterparts, lack skills, don't have the same kind of access to dirt-cheap and infinitely-accessible Nosferatu tomes, and don't have access to the significant double bonuses.

There are plenty of instances where skepticism is warranted. This isn't one of them.

[Othin]

Much of it is a matter of enemies tending to be so massively threatening that that enemy phase healing is more important than ever. In past games, regular good characters didn't have such a hard time taking on groups of enemies. Now, they do.

[Westbrick]

^This too. Another quirk of FE13 is that, on higher difficulties, the overwhelming enemy stats essentially demand the player use only a handful of units. This means that Shamans/Sorcerers, already the prime choice of class and among the few who can actually survive the swarms of Lunatic enemies, will be leveling up more quickly and furthering the gap between them and other units.

[Colonel M]

Did everyone forget that Linde was practically "unkillable" in FE3 Book 2, yet still didn't claim to be the best character in the game (great, but still lost to the mount goddesses)?

That's why I still hold "slight" skepticism. Under the same principle, I can still make Lunatic in FE12 seem kind of like a joke with an oversouped MU with Def and Spd rigs all across the board. While it is true that MU is the best character in FE12, it isn't solely based on his durability - noteworthy is his offense and access to flying class that retains his awesome ranks, too.

Now I do grant you that it's based on skepticism, so there's the possibility of me conceding once I play this game (which won't be until its US release). I won't hold myself a throne above like my favorite user who posted and whined in this topic, as I only admit that I'm human and most FE games have proven time over time the best units are usually the ones that can pick up a mount and roll around the clock. One thing Othin pointed out was that it was difficult for units to take on multiple enemies in this game. This was also true for FE12, and the game only threw an occasional exception (General Arran in Chapter 1, Armor Knight My Unit during some of the Prologue chapters, and then sometimes My Unit can face situations where his durability can keep him above water with the assistance of stat boosters). Most units would be lucky to see a 3HKO in FE12. To see it here as well is far from surprising.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Colonel M

[Othin]

Four other key things I've found to be true in FE13 in my experience:

-Durability is much more of an issue than offense

-Magic is one of the best forms of offense anyway

-Magic and durability tend to not mix too well

-Double means units can easily keep pace with more mobile ones

So unlimited durability combined with magic is pretty huge, and lack of a mount isn't such a concern.

[Colonel M]

Four other key things I've found to be true in FE13 in my experience:

-Durability is much more of an issue than offense

That's somewhat true for FE12, too. The only exception might be in Lunatic'. This does exclude a good 60% of the cast, though, that lack both qualities to begin with.

-Magic is one of the best forms of offense anyway

-Magic and durability tend to not mix too well

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here - wouldn't, with Nosferatu, the opposite be true to statement #3?

I might be able to believe you with #2, but with those it depends on how:

- the Enemy's Def and Res values.

- the types of enemies most common, if any

Magi such as Etzel and Merric weren't bad by FE12's standards (they could leave huge dents on enemies without taking a counterattack, and Excalibur is fairly important), but enemies in FE12 were commonly susceptible to slayer weaponry such as Dragonpike and Wing Spear forges.

Though, if Def / Res values are a little more like FE9 Maniac Mode... I might see Magi having an upper hand offensively.

-Double means units can easily keep pace with more mobile ones

So unlimited durability combined with magic is pretty huge, and lack of a mount isn't such a concern.

I can definitely believe you in one area, but it seems like the lack of a mount is only disproved by maybe Double.

But if you look at Double bonuses, the following classes give the bonus:

- Great Knight

- Bow Knight

- Thief

- Trickster

- Dark Knight

- Griffin Knight

And the one thing to notice, above all else, is that most of these classes are also mounted. So while it's true that Sorcerers can get ferries around, Great Knights and the like can still attest to contributing since, not only are they pulling the unit around, they're also giving an extra Mov / damage bonus.

At least, that's what it sounds like.

[BBM]

The way I see it, the class pulling your Sorcerer around is kind of like a Dancer. Integral, but useless by itself.

[Othin]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here - wouldn't, with Nosferatu, the opposite be true to statement #3?

Precisely. Best of both worlds.

I might be able to believe you with #2, but with those it depends on how:

- the Enemy's Def and Res values.

- the types of enemies most common, if any

Magi such as Etzel and Merric weren't bad by FE12's standards (they could leave huge dents on enemies without taking a counterattack, and Excalibur is fairly important), but enemies in FE12 were commonly susceptible to slayer weaponry such as Dragonpike and Wing Spear forges.

Though, if Def / Res values are a little more like FE9 Maniac Mode... I might see Magi having an upper hand offensively.

There's a whole variety of enemies around with varying stats, but mages definitely hit hard on the typically weaker defensive stat without losing much power. Regular weapons having issues with good 1-2 range also plays into this, although it also applied for FE12 I guess.

There's no Wing Spear equivalent, though, and not many slayer weapons available in general, as well as enemies being less consistently vulnerable to them.

I can definitely believe you in one area, but it seems like the lack of a mount is only disproved by maybe Double.

But if you look at Double bonuses, the following classes give the bonus:

- Great Knight

- Bow Knight

- Thief

- Trickster

- Dark Knight

- Griffin Knight

And the one thing to notice, above all else, is that most of these classes are also mounted. So while it's true that Sorcerers can get ferries around, Great Knights and the like can still attest to contributing since, not only are they pulling the unit around, they're also giving an extra Mov / damage bonus.

At least, that's what it sounds like.

Well, that's what happens when the Sorcerer is doing the moving, but you have other options. You can have a Sorcerer jump on a Griffin Knight, have the Griffin Knight fly 10 squares over a mountain and into a group of enemies, and switch the Sorcerer in front to take the attacks.

And yeah, the Griffin Knight contributes. But the Sorcerer still gets to do a ton of fighting while dashing through the map as fast possible. You couldn't move faster without the Sorcerer, is more my point.

[Westbrick]

I'll offer up some anecdotal evidence for the brokenness not of Sorcerers generally, but of Nosferatu specifically: when I was breezing through endgame Lunatic with my MU!Sorcerer/Krom combo, I decided to try and conserve some Nosferatu tomes by switching to standard anima magic. My MU, who was fully-healed with a max 80 HP, didn't survive the enemy phase- and this was a unit with several capped stats at the time, including defense.

The point here is that healing, in FE13, is absolutely essential, as no unit (even with capped defense) can "tank" in the way past FE games have permitted. FE13's enemies are incredibly strong and very accurate, so the only surefire way to survive an enemy offensive is to a) take your medicine and brace the attack, and b) heal afterwards. Nosferatu lets the player do all this automatically without wasting any time.

[dondon151]

Then you'd be wrong. They are, without question, the best class in the series.

this is patently false, and i can name more counterexamples than i can fit on a hand (hint: most of them are some form of dracoknight or paladin).

The differences between FE6 and FE13 Nosferatanking should be fairly obvious: Shamans/Druids in 6 aren't nearly as bulky or as well-rounded as their FE13 counterparts,

infinite availability of angelic robes past chapter 16, ray's affinity gives full def and avo, nosferatu heals all HP inflicted and not only half HP inflicted

lack skills,

in a game where enemies had no skills, either

don't have the same kind of access to dirt-cheap and infinitely-accessible Nosferatu tomes,

nosferatu is buyable in chapter 14 with the newly obtained silver card for a reasonable price of 1500G a pop

and don't have access to the significant double bonuses.

this one i obviously can't contest. moving on to your later post:

The point here is that healing, in FE13, is absolutely essential, as no unit (even with capped defense) can "tank" in the way past FE games have permitted.

you can't "tank" in FE12 lunatic without nosferatu, either, and people have been trivializing that game ever since it hit the DS

FE13's enemies are incredibly strong and very accurate,

FE12 lunatic enemies were incredibly strong and very accurate

so the only surefire way to survive an enemy offensive is to a) take your medicine and brace the attack, and b) heal afterwards.

players have been charging headlong into FE12 enemy offensives with no self-healing to back them up, and it's worked out perfectly fine. FE12 had numerous instances with chapters with seemingly huge mobs of enemies could be beaten without having to resort to tanking them at all.

[Othin]

FE12 lunatic enemies were incredibly strong and very accurate

players have been charging headlong into FE12 enemy offensives with no self-healing to back them up, and it's worked out perfectly fine. FE12 had numerous instances with chapters with seemingly huge mobs of enemies could be beaten without having to resort to tanking them at all.

And you're saying these two statements can somehow be reconciled without disgusting amounts of RNG abusing?

And no, "buyable in unlimited quantities" does not automatically equate to "infinitely available". It's a necessary but not sufficient condition. I imagine one might not be able to buy all the Angelic Robes they want without issues. One would not have issues buying all the Nosferatu spells they want in FE13.

[fatgamecat]

I won't hold myself a throne above like my favorite user who posted and whined in this topic, as I only admit that I'm human and most FE games have proven time over time the best units are usually the ones that can pick up a mount and roll around the clock.

You're only further proving exactly what I'm accurately warning about.

I'd say any DLC use should be restricted to the character maps as opposed to the monster ones and just be one play each. I would recommend no use of the Wireless section, though, for SpotPass/Fame/whatever.

And I mean, I'm playing under those rules for my Lunatic run just because I think it's more fun, so why not? You could say the same about any challenge run, but they can still be the most fun ways to play a game, when they don't cut much into the options that constitute it.

Sure, that's fine, but if someone does use those features and posts about it, they'll be exposing themselves. Play your runs for fun, just don't talk about them in detail.

To answer the OP directly, it's been pretty well established that if a player uses all options available to them, there are plenty of ways to significantly reduce the game's difficulty level, either through DLC or game mechanics. That's what I'm assuming you meant when you asked about difficulty, since you didn't mention any particular set of playthrough conditions.

[Othin]

Sure, that's fine, but if someone does use those features and posts about it, they'll be exposing themselves. Play your runs for fun, just don't talk about them in detail.

Maybe some of us are fine with exposing ourselves. Are you?

[Westbrick]

@dondon: I've never played FE12, but your entire argument seems to rest on two (fairly weak) claims:

1) Nosferatu was pretty good in FE6, and that didn't break the game.

2) Enemies were pretty strong in FE12, and the game could still be trivialized.

Neither claim gets at the heart of the issue: that FE13 enemies are incredibly strong, and that Nosferatu is the difference between surviving as many enemy phases as the player would like, and not even being able to survive one or two. Enemy skills aren't nearly as significant as player skills, even on Lunatic, and enemies don't get access to double/support bonuses.

This is one of those situations where I know I'm right, so if there's anything else you feel skeptical towards, let me know and I can try to clear things up.

EDIT: Another big plus for Sorcerers in FE13 are the limited number of map objectives, with every map being some variation of route or kill-boss. In both cases, a Sorcerer is the best unit for the job: for route maps, a Sorcerer can be thrown into the middle of combat with no need to heal or worry about protection (and most ranged melee weapons are poor), and for boss maps, boss units tend to be very strong, to the point where Sorcerer + flier is usually the best way to clean things up in a turn or two.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Westbrick

[aku chi]

This is one of those situations where I know I'm right

That's a very bold claim considering:

• You haven't completed the game on the hardest difficulty.
  
• The game hasn't been out for very long (you haven't had the opportunity to exhaust all of the strategic possibilities).
  
• Very few members in this community have played the game at all (different people can bring different perspectives and different strategies).