How difficult is Awakening?

[Westbrick]

That's a very bold claim considering:

• You haven't completed the game on the hardest difficulty.
• The game hasn't been out for very long (you haven't had the opportunity to exhaust all of the strategic possibilities).
• Very few members in this community have played the game at all (different people can bring different perspectives and different strategies)

1) Lunatic and Lunatic+ are apparently very similar, except for a few OP enemy skills. It's certainly the next on my list, although I seriously doubt Lunatic+ will be discussed seriously in terms of tiering. Why? Because those L+-exclusive enemy skills are assigned randomly.

2 + 3) I've beaten the game three time, which certainly qualifies me more than someone who hasn't played the game at all. Oh, and Othin- who's also played the game- agrees with me about Sorcerers, although he's purposefully choosing not to trivialize Lunatic with Nosferatu use.

[arvilino]

@dondon: I've never played FE12, but your entire argument seems to rest on two (fairly weak) claims:

1) Nosferatu was pretty good in FE6, and that didn't break the game.

2) Enemies were pretty strong in FE12, and the game could still be trivialized.

Neither claim gets at the heart of the issue: that FE13 enemies are incredibly strong, and that Nosferatu is the difference between surviving as many enemy phases as the player would like, and not even being able to survive one or two. Enemy skills aren't nearly as significant as player skills, even on Lunatic, and enemies don't get access to double/support bonuses.

This is one of those situations where I know I'm right, so if there's anything else you feel skeptical towards, let me know and I can try to clear things up.

EDIT: Another big plus for Sorcerers in FE13 are the limited number of map objectives, with every map being some variation of route or kill-boss. In both cases, a Sorcerer is the best unit for the job: for route maps, a Sorcerer can be thrown into the middle of combat with no need to heal or worry about protection (and most ranged melee weapons are poor), and for boss maps, boss units tend to be very strong, to the point where Sorcerer + flier is usually the best way to clean things up in a turn or two.

Enemies in FE12(Lunatic) were still incredibly strong, to the point alot like FE13 Lunatic your characters are getting 2HKO'd and bunch of them getting doubled by default. Beyond mid-game cases like Dracoknight or General Palla and Catria with their massive defense, Nosferatu users(providing their stats are high enough) can be used in the same manner as in FE13, excluding the fact you only get a limited number of tomes.

The only major difference is that enemies start to reach their non-defensive caps in FE12 Lunatic so the Sages speed cap(25) eventually prevents them doubling with Nosferatu. Whereas in FE13 with a Speed+ MU combined with War tactics skill allowing them accellerated levelling and the double system your Sorceror can stay ahead of most of the enemies speed. Though enemy numbers is something as well, there are alot more enemies per chapter in FE13 Lunatic than there are in FE12 Lunatic.

Which sort of does skew the game in requiring durability over defense moreso than FE12(where not in Lunatic Reverse) as long as your character can survive one attack or possibly two depending on the enemies a characters offense is what's important as the amount of defense required to go from 2HKO to 3HKO or higher is disproportionate to the amount of Strength or Speed a character may need to ORKO an enemuy.

Whereas in FE13 allows more frequent evasion, higher overall durability through double and other factors(Nosferatu) but features higher enemy density which make durability more important and for durability/survivability to to improve more easily.

Edited June 7, 2012 by arvilino

[aku chi]

I've beaten the game three time, which certainly qualifies me more than someone who hasn't played the game at all.

I am not claiming that your assertions are wrong. I am merely suggesting that you are over-confident in your assertions.

[Anouleth]

1) Lunatic and Lunatic+ are apparently very similar, except for a few OP enemy skills. It's certainly the next on my list, although I seriously doubt Lunatic+ will be discussed seriously in terms of tiering. Why? Because those L+-exclusive enemy skills are assigned randomly.

And as we all know, tier lists are incapable of dealing with any variables or random elements whatsoever.

2 + 3) I've beaten the game three time, which certainly qualifies me more than someone who hasn't played the game at all. Oh, and Othin- who's also played the game- agrees with me about Sorcerers, although he's purposefully choosing not to trivialize Lunatic with Nosferatu use.

When Mjemirzian first played FE10, he was the best qualified person to comment on what was good and what wasn't. He's not a stupid person. Yet he still made mistakes and recommendations that now seem hopelessly quaint. When FE11 came out, people who were not stupid sang the praises of Wolf/Sedgar. Hell, for many many years after their release, we still heard misinformation about games like FE6 (omg lilina) or FE7 (omg canas). So maybe you are qualified to make claims about the game, but we don't have to believe them and dondon is perfectly justified in taking them with a pinch of salt.

And you're saying these two statements can somehow be reconciled without disgusting amounts of RNG abusing?

Yes. It's intelligent and considered use of player and enemy phase offense to make sure everything dies quickly.

And no, "buyable in unlimited quantities" does not automatically equate to "infinitely available". It's a necessary but not sufficient condition. I imagine one might not be able to buy all the Angelic Robes they want without issues. One would not have issues buying all the Nosferatu spells they want in FE13.

Really? Angelic Robes only cost 4k. That's really not much at all...

[Velth]

When Mjemirzian first played FE10, he was the best qualified person to comment on what was good and what wasn't. He's not a stupid person. Yet he still made mistakes and recommendations that now seem hopelessly quaint. When FE11 came out, people who were not stupid sang the praises of Wolf/Sedgar. Hell, for many many years after their release, we still heard misinformation about games like FE6 (omg lilina) or FE7 (omg canas). So maybe you are qualified to make claims about the game, but we don't have to believe them and dondon is perfectly justified in taking them with a pinch of salt.

Yes but unlike any of those cases it is very much proven that sorcerers with nosferatu completely break the game unlike anything else in previous games, unlike saying that character x has good growths or this guy does that better than the other guy, it is proven that certain sorcerers in double(MU and maybe DLC!Marth dunno about others)can solo everything after like chapter 13 which is when nosferatu becomes freely available if I remember right

There is even video evidence of this if you check jrpg2020's videos of sorc soloing chapter 23 on Lunatic+

Jrpg2020's video

(the high damage in that video is because he's using a forged inverse's darkness )

Edited June 7, 2012 by Velth

[Thor Odinson]

You know, while Sorcs certainly look great right now, let's wait for NoA/E release so more of us actually has the game. If there is a way to do L mode more efficiently and/or not spamming Nosferatu Sorcs, I'm sure someone will figure it out.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Anouleth]

Yes but unlike any of those cases it is very much proven that sorcerers with nosferatu completely break the game unlike anything else in previous games, unlike saying that character x has good growths or this guy does that better than the other guy, it is proven that certain sorcerers in double(MU and maybe DLC!Marth dunno about others)can solo everything after like chapter 13 which is when nosferatu becomes freely available if I remember right

Which doesn't really mean anything at all. Seth can solo everything after the opening cutscene. Ditto for Sigurd. Sety can solo everything up until the final boss. Wolf and Sedgar can solo most of their game given time to gain levels beforehand. I am telling you, this is not "unlike anything else in previous games". Fire Emblem has had broken shit before. Shit that is FAR more broken than certain unit types merely having great durability. What's broken is Lena and Shiida beating half of FE11 with warpskips, a turn per chapter.

There is even video evidence of this if you check jrpg2020's videos of sorc soloing chapter 23 on Lunatic+

Jrpg2020's video

(the high damage in that video is because he's using a forged inverse's darkness )

You think I can't find a video of Sety or Wolf or Sedgar or Haar shredding through hordes of enemies on enemy phase? I'm told that apparently, this is different because the game is so much harder, because enemies have relatively, much better stats. And in the same breath, apparently Sorcerers can ORKO, reliably, with a relatively weak weapon, and at the same time deal enough damage to heal themselves completely. Because, having played FE6, FE10, and FE12, I can say that ORKOing in those games is really not easy and not something that is in reach for many characters, let alone the class with the worst speed in the game using a relatively weak weapon, or characters with horribly imbalanced stats like Sariya and Henry.

[Thor Odinson]

After watching the video, I wonder what the two marths' skillsets are/if he was standing on anything, since they seem to have an S rank support bonus but DLC/Spotpass (other than the specific 6) characters can't support. And I also want to know what his avoid and the other Marth's Dual Defend rates are, as Sorc Marth was saved from death many times by random dodges or parries from attacks that otherwise could've killed him.

Unless they get S rank bonuses for being, well, both Marth. :B

Edited June 7, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Remnant Sage]

Prince Marth's skills are mostly supportive. Dual Guard+, Dual Attack+, Dual Support+. Both of them are more than likely maxed, so that also contributes to the percent chance they'll activate the Dual Attack or Dual Guard.

[Othin]

The automatic one level from any two characters combined with the four levels from Dual Support+ should display the LV5 support bonuses associated with a lone S support, so I suspect that's what's going on.

[thunderstrife]

I feel like this argument is pretty frivolous right now. It's basically those who haven't played at all vs. those who have. When you get the game you will be able to judge for yourself as to whether FE13 Sorcerers are the best in the series or not - why argue now when you have no frame of reference?

Also, yes, Sety can do the same thing in FE4, but FE4 enemies are super easy and Wind magic is ridiculous (and more than that we are talking about HOLSETY, all the damn legendary weapons in FE4 are broken and Holsety is the most broken!).

One thing I was wondering is about some of the new classes: what is so great about Griffon Knights? And also, what is the availability of magic swords like (most notably for use by Tricksters/Dark Knights)?

Edited June 7, 2012 by thunderstrife

[luchinania]

The game seems easy(hard mode, haven't been able to advance through lunatic) until the enemy activates a critical or certain skills and kills you.

You can buy nosferatu from spotpass teams as early as whenever you have access to spotpass, and change one of your characters into a dark mage as soon as you are in a high enough level and have a change proof(chapter 4?). I haven't used dark mages/sorcerers that much in this playthrough but when I turned my MU into a dark mage, he was capable of soloing a lot of the maps(something he wasn't able to do as a strategist). All in all, I haven't used that class that much so I can't comment much apart from yeah it seems broken.

I feel like this argument is pretty frivolous right now. It's basically those who haven't played at all vs. those who have. When you get the game you will be able to judge for yourself as to whether FE13 Sorcerers are the best in the series or not - why argue now when you have no frame of reference?

Also, yes, Sety can do the same thing in FE4, but FE4 enemies are super easy and Wind magic is ridiculous (and more than that we are talking about HOLSETY, all the damn legendary weapons in FE4 are broken and Holsety is the most broken!).

One thing I was wondering is about some of the new classes: what is so great about Griffon Knights? And also, what is the availability of magic swords like (most notably for use by Tricksters/Dark Knights)?

Griffon Knights have the highest movement in the game when using double, which is incredibly useful. About magic swords, I'm on chapter 17 and I have only gotten one(magic lances are more common), if I remember correctly you get it from Gangrel in chapter 11. You can probably get more through spotpass but I haven't bother.

Edited June 7, 2012 by luchinania

[Othin]

Yes. It's intelligent and considered use of player and enemy phase offense to make sure everything dies quickly.

Do explain exactly how to do that in such a situation without disgusting amounts of RNG abuse.

One thing I was wondering is about some of the new classes: what is so great about Griffon Knights? And also, what is the availability of magic swords like (most notably for use by Tricksters/Dark Knights)?

Griffin Knights get Carrier at LV5, giving them +2 Move in Double for a total of 10 or more, along with flying in a game where Double allows fliers to ferry units easier than ever and then duck out of the way of threatening arrows. They're also faster than Dragonmasters, although not by a whole lot and not more than the Pegasus Knight promotions.

You can get a few Levin Swords throughout the game, but not a whole lot. They're the only magic sword; Bolt Axes are also available particularly for Battle Monks and Battle Clerics but they're more rare.

The only magic lance is the Stun Lance, which strangely enough is 1-range only. It's a bonus item, so you only get it randomly, through things like event tiles and Everyone's Room. So how many you get of it really depends, but I haven't found a use for it.

[luchinania]

The only magic lance is the Stun Lance, which strangely enough is 1-range only. It's a bonus item, so you only get it randomly, through things like event tiles and Everyone's Room. So how many you get of it really depends, but I haven't found a use for it.

Lol, I got the javelin confused with a magic lance(I have the animations off). Wow, javelins sucks, I thought the low attack power was because the user had low magic.

[dondon151]

Do explain exactly how to do that in such a situation without disgusting amounts of RNG abuse.

Simple. You figure out the AI. Chapters are not haphazardly designed in FE12; it is very often the case that you can put a unit in range of several enemies on enemy phase and he will end up only facing one attack, as long as you put allies with weaker defensive parameters in range of the other enemies, or if you form a horizontal defensive wall (due to the predetermined enemy attack order). There are also several ways in which you can only pull a single enemy at a time while progressing quickly through the chapter. Chapter 11 comes to mind, where there are flying dragons scattered across the map with 10 move and 1-2 range. Finally, Fortify staves allow you to plow through an enemy formation, heal off the damage prior to enemy phase, and then heal off that damage prior to player phase. You have dancers, Again staves, and Rescue staves to squeeze out every point of movement that you can get out to minimally clear seize objectives.

I feel like this argument is pretty frivolous right now. It's basically those who haven't played at all vs. those who have. When you get the game you will be able to judge for yourself as to whether FE13 Sorcerers are the best in the series or not - why argue now when you have no frame of reference?

No frame of reference? Excuse me, but most of the users arguing the contrary have played a majority of the Fire Emblem games and have experienced the hardest difficulties on all of them. We have a huge frame of reference, certainly not less than, for example, Othin and Westbrick, who don't seem to have played FE11 H5 or FE12 H3 before, nor do they have a history of being ambitious players.

Edited June 7, 2012 by dondon151

[Only My Unit]

Do explain exactly how to do that in such a situation without disgusting amounts of RNG abuse.

Griffin Knights get Carrier at LV5, giving them +2 Move in Double for a total of 10 or more, along with flying in a game where Double allows fliers to ferry units easier than ever and then duck out of the way of threatening arrows. They're also faster than Dragonmasters, although not by a whole lot and not more than the Pegasus Knight promotions.

You can get a few Levin Swords throughout the game, but not a whole lot. They're the only magic sword; Bolt Axes are also available particularly for Battle Monks and Battle Clerics but they're more rare.

The only magic lance is the Stun Lance, which strangely enough is 1-range only. It's a bonus item, so you only get it randomly, through things like event tiles and Everyone's Room. So how many you get of it really depends, but I haven't found a use for it.

Stun Lance: Peg evolution or Bride.

But I actually see myself using those a lot with my party consisting of Strategists, a Demon Fighter and a Bride often, switching out Pegasi randomly.

[thunderstrife]

No frame of reference? Excuse me, but most of the users arguing the contrary have played a majority of the Fire Emblem games and have experienced the hardest difficulties on all of them. We have a huge frame of reference, certainly not less than, for example, Othin and Westbrick, who don't seem to have played FE11 H5 or FE12 H3 before, nor do they have a history of being ambitious players.

But when speaking specifically about something in THIS Fire Emblem, even someone who has played all the others certainly is at experience disadvantage. Certainly to say that this game's Sorcerers are the "most broken" is part opinion and part observational fact. Since it is impossible to pit Ray against Sorcerer!MU, or have them fight the enemies in each others' respective titles, you can really only base whether the statement is true or false on your own experience. Every title is very different and has a lot of different dimensions, bickering over how one title's class tiers in the large universe of Fire Emblem seems pretty frivolous to me - and even moreso when there is not equal information on both sides.

Whether it would be a good discussion between two people who HAVE played it would be a different matter entirely. It just seems rather naive to say that you don't have somewhat less a frame of reference pertaining to a game you haven't played - on the series as a whole maybe both sides are equal, but how could they be on a matter where one side is distinctly lacking personal experience? In the same vein, if they haven't played the two hard modes you're talking about in particular, what can you possibly achieve by saying that it is harder? They obviously can't say it isn't, but you can't say it is; you both have imperfect information.

On topic though: are there any chapters that have different objectives than "Capture the Throne" (sort of like chase or defend objectives in FE5), and are the maps bigger than the non-FE4 titles (since it seems like double, etc. makes maps more quickly traversable)?

[BBM]

From what I've heard, no chapters have Seize as an objective. The objectives are all either Rout or Kill Boss.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

It's the first FE on the 3DS, maybe the next one will go more in-depth?

Final boss with more than 99 HP plz

[Psych]

From what I've heard, no chapters have Seize as an objective. The objectives are all either Rout or Kill Boss.

Not gonna lie, that's a bit of a wanted change after Shadow Dragon for me.

[thunderstrife]

Not gonna lie, that's a bit of a wanted change after Shadow Dragon for me.

Same! I mean, to be fair FE11 and FE12 are pretty faithful remakes of the first and third games (with minor and necessary improvements) so its understandable that the objectives were pretty simple. But the seize the thrown objective definitely gets old.

[Only My Unit]

What was the objective thrown at?

[Westbrick]

@dondon

I've played FE11 H5, yes. Just to give you some other credentials of mine, I've B-Ranked FE4, A-Ranked FE5, S-Ranked HHM, and beaten the hardest difficulties on all non-FE12 games in the series. Not nearly as hardcore as many of you, I know, but that combined with me actually owning the game makes me fairly qualified.

And there's no reason for this discussion to come to a wall! I gave you a couple extra reasons why Nosferatanking is especially effective here, so you can look into those and post your thoughts if you want.

[arvilino]

I think the only point against the effectiveness of Nosferatu tanking in this game is that it's not instantly effective(compared to say FE12 where Linde can do it effectively instantly). Due to it's half healing Sariya to begin with and Henry(due to his really low speed) don't actually perform amazingly well with Nosferatu.

Edited June 8, 2012 by arvilino

[Westbrick]

I'd argue that the best Sorcerer in Lunatic, by a fairly large margin, is MU.