Anouleth Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 If we can refer to the People's Republic of China as China (ignoring the fact that there is also the Republic of China, I don't see why we can't shorten up our references to the United States as well. Well, this is how language evolves. The word "America" is now so synonymous with the US that it barely has any other meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 People have only been doing it for 1000 years. And Great Britain is also a synecdoche since when we use it we are often referring to the whole of the United Kingdom. But it's just wrong. A person from Northern Ireland is not a part of GB since GB only accounts for Wales, Scotland and England. And to say someone is from England when they say they are from the UK is going to be correct about five out of six times (in terms of population of the UK). I don't mind people getting it wrong since they probably haven't educated themselves on the countries of the UK, but to call it all England when they know Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK is pretty ignorant. Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are not England, no matter how you try to spin it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) People have only been doing it for 1000 years. And Great Britain is also a synecdoche since when we use it we are often referring to the whole of the United Kingdom. Why do people hate synecdoches so much... Because metonymy more often tends to only roll one way, and is much superior as a result due to its specificity. You might call a king a throne, but you probably wouldn't call a throne a king. Actions of the US executive branch might be referred to as actions of the white house, but you don't refer to the white house as the executive branch. It is true that when both items have agency, their can be intermingling: you might refer to an operation under the purview of someone in a military hierarchy as his action, even if he had nothing to do with it, and you also might refer to his actions as the actions of the army he is in. But with synecdoche, you might call the part the whole or the whole the part on pretty much any occasion. Also tropes <<<<<<<<< schemes. Edited June 9, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster! Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) I'm asking because of what happened in this topic over at MAL (the first post was recently edited, but the original post is quoted in the second post). Having only read that second post, what said poster pointed out is indeed correct since North America is not a country. Regardless... Going to go with what Anouleth, Reojew, Esau of Isaac, and Balcerzak said and also add the USSR as another example of how we take the name of a (former) country and shorten it to something like the soviet union for simplicities sake. Also: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas "In the English language, the Americas refers to the landmasses of North America and South America with their associated islands and regions, whereas America, in current usage, usually refers to the United States of America." Additionally, the USA seems to be the only country in the world that uses the word "America" in its countries name anyway. I think if I meet someone in real life who said that you can't refer to the USA as America I would just laugh at them and tell them to look up what the word means in a dictionary or something like that. I mean really, of all the things that you're getting pissed off about you're going to pick something like this? Edited June 9, 2012 by Blademaster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 But it's just wrong. A person from Northern Ireland is not a part of GB since GB only accounts for Wales, Scotland and England. It's only wrong in the sense that a metaphor is wrong. I mean, no shit, Robert Downey Jr is not literally smoking hot, he is not literally about to burst into flames, but we can still say that he's smoking hot. Synecdoche is a well-established form of metaphor. And it's not confusing or open to misinterpretation either. When I say that Northern Ireland is part of Britain I am not saying that it is literally one landmass, and it's obvious to everyone what I actually meant, and that's what language is in the end, a medium to express ideas and concepts, so it's correct language to do so. And to say someone is from England when they say they are from the UK is going to be correct about five out of six times (in terms of population of the UK). They are correct 100% of the time because that's a valid use of the word and has been for hundreds of years. It's a well-established and common use of a well-established form of metaphor. I don't mind people getting it wrong since they probably haven't educated themselves on the countries of the UK, but to call it all England when they know Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland are all part of the UK is pretty ignorant. Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are not England, no matter how you try to spin it. Maybe you need to educate yourself on how language actually works, because words can mean many different things depending on the context. And England can be taken to refer to the whole of Great Britain or even the whole of the UK, just as Holland can be taken to refer to the whole of the Netherlands or Bosnia can be taken to mean the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina (I had to look that up), or Ancient Rome can be taken to mean an Empire that stretched from Spain to India, or Caucasian can be taken to mean people from a huge range of areas outside of Georgia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ϲharlie Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I'm just going to pitch in another "I don't see what the big deal is". Shortening "United States of America" to simply "America" does not seem like much of a problem to me, especially since it's incredibly easy to distinguish "America" from "North America" and "South America". I am also going to continue to refer to myself as an American because I don't feel I should have to go through my laundry list of nationalities, none of which I feel any sort of cultural connection with. This is really just another case of people trying to make an issue out of a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Having only read that second post, what said poster pointed out is indeed correct since North America is not a country. Regardless... Good point. I probably should have mentioned that I edited the original post after that first reply to just say America and many of the following posters decided to be smart asses about it. This starts at post 8. Then I pointed it out two months later and someone else decided to jump on the smart-assery bandwagon. Edited June 9, 2012 by Madam Red Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) I think if I meet someone in real life who said that you can't refer to the USA as America I would just laugh at them and tell them to look up what the word means in a dictionary or something like that. I mean really, of all the things that you're getting pissed off about you're going to pick something like this? I know of people who are from South America and say that they are Americans too, and that's perfectly fine with me, but not that the USA is not America or that people from the USA are not Americans. (I say know of because even though I actually know them, I wasn't actually there when any of them said anything along these lines). Edited June 9, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 It's only wrong in the sense that a metaphor is wrong. I mean, no shit, Robert Downey Jr is not literally smoking hot, he is not literally about to burst into flames, but we can still say that he's smoking hot. Synecdoche is a well-established form of metaphor. And it's not confusing or open to misinterpretation either. When I say that Northern Ireland is part of Britain I am not saying that it is literally one landmass, and it's obvious to everyone what I actually meant, and that's what language is in the end, a medium to express ideas and concepts, so it's correct language to do so. They are correct 100% of the time because that's a valid use of the word and has been for hundreds of years. It's a well-established and common use of a well-established form of metaphor. Maybe you need to educate yourself on how language actually works, because words can mean many different things depending on the context. And England can be taken to refer to the whole of Great Britain or even the whole of the UK, just as Holland can be taken to refer to the whole of the Netherlands or Bosnia can be taken to mean the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina (I had to look that up), or Ancient Rome can be taken to mean an Empire that stretched from Spain to India, or Caucasian can be taken to mean people from a huge range of areas outside of Georgia. All right. So when someone says "Oh, England!" when I tell them I'm from the UK, I'm supposed to nod my head in agreement? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Well, in case I wasn't clear, I don't care if other people refer to the United States as "America" or people from the U.S. as "American." I usually do it to. But I prefer to say, "I'm from the U.S." or I just call the country that I live in the "U.S." because I personally prefer it so. As for the Great Britain and England thing ... I have nothing useful to say on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 There's nothing wrong with calling USA America, simply because that's the kind of language we've all adapted to It's just a big semantics debate that means almost nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 All right. So when someone says "Oh, England!" when I tell them I'm from the UK, I'm supposed to nod my head in agreement? No. If you're from Scotland or Northern Island, you should correct them, but if you're from Whales you should nod your head in agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) If you're from Scotland or Northern Island, you should correct them, but if you're from Whales you should nod your head in agreement. Naturally. Edited June 9, 2012 by Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Even other countries call the United States "America" all the time. That's the official word for it in Japanese, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byte2222 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Get out. I think you just made my day. OT: I think that referring to one group (USA, UK) with another related term (America, England) in the general sense is nothing to throw a hissy fit over but its still something that bugs me, the reason being that it's unfair to the others, in this case Canada/Mexico/etc. and Wales/Scotland/NI. This is also typical of something about the vocal minority in the US that I hate: the insularity, viewing the US as 'kings of the world' and ignorance of other countries and cultures. Like I say, I know this is the minority but I personally am not prepared to tolerate it and I think that it's important that everyone knows the difference. I'm also sorry if I've been a bit adversarial, I'm still a bit riled up from some comments from an archery review that amount to "wow, you can't hunt over there? Sucks huh?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Kitty Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Don't care. It's just another example of people over-thinking something popular and being anal about it. this basically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) I call it the U.S. (as in "you as"), same number of syllables and is a bit more clear. I generally don't notice/think much of it when other people refer to the U.S.A as America, unless they're actually being all "MURRIKAH'S THE ALL-TIME GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD DEAL WITH IT NERD" Edited June 9, 2012 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 All right. So when someone says "Oh, England!" when I tell them I'm from the UK, I'm supposed to nod my head in agreement? No. Well, in some cases a greater deal of geographical precision is needed. There's nothing wrong with specifying that you are from X region of the UK and not the largest one: but at the same time, when that added precision isn't needed, referring to the UK as England is perfectly acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Even other countries call the United States "America" all the time. That's the official word for it in Japanese, for example. Already beat you to the punch bro~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 OT: I think that referring to one group (USA, UK) with another related term (America, England) in the general sense is nothing to throw a hissy fit over but its still something that bugs me, the reason being that it's unfair to the others, in this case Canada/Mexico/etc. and Wales/Scotland/NI. This is also typical of something about the vocal minority in the US that I hate: the insularity, viewing the US as 'kings of the world' and ignorance of other countries and cultures. Like I say, I know this is the minority but I personally am not prepared to tolerate it and I think that it's important that everyone knows the difference. I'm also sorry if I've been a bit adversarial, I'm still a bit riled up from some comments from an archery review that amount to "wow, you can't hunt over there? Sucks huh?" From my understanding, the term "America" and "American" are nicknames. Kind of like how Johnathon can shorten to Johny or John, USA and USAmerican were just shortened. Officially, the USA is the only country whose official name even has the word "America" in it. It's not that the people are egotistical and ignorant like you said that's a separate issue altogether, but it's just how people all over the world referred to the country back in the day. On the flip side, we couldn't officially shorten it to just the "United States" (even though we sometimes do) because there are other countries out there whose official names contain the words "United States." Just my thoughts. Already beat you to the punch bro~ Must have skimmed over your post too fast to notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Even other countries call the United States "America" all the time. That's the official word for it in Japanese, for example. Actually, that's incorrect. The official word for the US in Japanese is 米国. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Actually, that's incorrect. The official word for the US in Japanese is 米国. I put that into google translate half expecting to get some anti-american thing like "gaijin" or "evil foreigner". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Actually, that's incorrect. The official word for the US in Japanese is 米国. Which is why everyone I talk to over here exclusively uses アメリカ, right? EDIT: From my understanding it's like the words おいしい and うまい. Both mean "delicious" and both are official words. 米国 (べいこく） is an old word that isn't really used anymore in normal speech unless you're using words like 米国土安全保障省 (homeland security). Either that or everything I've learned in all my studies is a lie. D: I can ask my teachers on Monday to clarify, if you'd like. Edited June 9, 2012 by 1st Mate Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramy Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Actually, that's incorrect. The official word for the US in Japanese is 米国. If you read it as Chinese characters, it translate to "Rice country" XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster! Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 This starts at post 8. Then I pointed it out two months later and someone else decided to jump on the smart-assery bandwagon. Wow, that's pretty... annoying. I guess more people care about whether America is a country than whether the Berserk movie comes to their country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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