RvB3: Lyn

[Baldrick]

Secondly, actually mating with a manakete and creating a blood bond with it are vastly different. One produces half-manaketes/half-humans who seem to be essentially the same as their dragon relatives even two generations on (MU getting together with Nn, for instance, will produce a manakete Mark as will him getting together with Nono). This is VERY different from the Branded and either suggests that the manaketes have either moved extremely far from their laguz roots, or that they were never related to the laguz to begin with.

At any rate, Branded, Half/Quarter-Manaketes and those who enter into a blood pact with a dragon (and the descendants of that person) are inherently different in both their abilities and their very species.

It seems similar enough to me. Mix blood -> get power. Half-manaketes don't always have the ability to transform (eg. Sophia). If Manaketes are descended from Laguz, there's been centuries in between for them to evolve and possibly the effects of mixing their blood with that of humans changes.

The Holy Markings seems to be quite different and primarily seem to allow access to specific Holy Weapons that the Dragon's create.

My theory was that the 12 Crusaders were made into artificial manakete-human hybrids; because the process was different, or less chaotic, or performed with a purpose in mind, they were able to choose the abilities gained.

[Brave Lord]

Did any of you name their Tactician Mark ? to me "Mark" is just reference to the verb "To mark" which is linked to Tacticians where they mark the attack points and the defense points on the Map....

Edited July 8, 2012 by Brave Lord

[Westbrick]

Did any of you name their Tactician Mark ? to me "Mark" is just reference to the verb "To mark" which is linked to Tacticians where they mark the attack points and the defense points on the Map....

Maybe I'm not understanding your question correctly, but "Mark" is the default tactician name in FE7 as well as the default name for MU's child. I guess it could be a pun, but it's an extremely common name, so I doubt it.

[Brave Lord]

Maybe I'm not understanding your question correctly, but "Mark" is the default tactician name in FE7 as well as the default name for MU's child. I guess it could be a pun, but it's an extremely common name, so I doubt it.

I know that but did you keep the name ? didn't you change it ?

[bookofholsety]

The player's actions are pretty much irrelevant. In many other games, the default or primary default option is considered to be the canon name, and often follow-up works will establish it as such (eg Red and Blue in Pokémon, pretty much every character in the MOTHER trilogy). Fire Emblem does have precedent in this respect, with the Chris's Homemade Sweets item in FE13 referring to the My Unit of FE12, whose default and canon name is Chris. Claiming that a player changing the name impacts canonicity is roughly as irrelevant as claiming that Wolt shouldn't exist in FE6 because you personally let Rebecca die in a FE7 playthrough.

[Brave Lord]

The player's actions are pretty much irrelevant. In many other games, the default or primary default option is considered to be the canon name, and often follow-up works will establish it as such (eg Red and Blue in Pokémon, pretty much every character in the MOTHER trilogy). Fire Emblem does have precedent in this respect, with the Chris's Homemade Sweets item in FE13 referring to the My Unit of FE12, whose default and canon name is Chris. Claiming that a player changing the name impacts canonicity is roughly as irrelevant as claiming that Wolt shouldn't exist in FE6 because you personally let Rebecca die in a FE7 playthrough.

Ok forget about Chris, whatever you named your character it would never change the fact that you were the one playing FE7 and now you are playing FE13....so the one who's canonically constant is you not the name, that's why the tactician in FE7 is the same MU in FE13, and the way you change got that realms is through buying the game, changing the cartridge.

[NeonZ]

Ok forget about Chris, whatever you named your character it would never change the fact that you were the one playing FE7 and now you are playing FE13....so the one who's canonically constant is you not the name, that's why the tactician in FE7 is the same MU in FE13, and the way you change got that realms is through buying the game, changing the cartridge.

If that were true they'd have said that the FE12 MU was FE13 MU too, but they didn't say that. Katarina just says that there's some kind of resemblance between them, not that they're the same, unlike Lyn. (and Marth doesn't seem to recognize the MU at all). And, yes, that's a reference to both being player avatars, but the way Lyn reacts to the MU seems to be beyond that. I don't think you can just attribute it entirely to fourth wall breaking considering the FE12 MU situation.

Edited July 8, 2012 by NeonZ

[VincentASM]

On the subject of the name "Mark", I assumed it was a pun as "Mark" and "Emblem" both mean "symbol" and the word "Emblem" is naturally very important to the series.

I think NOA kind of played with this as the bonus weapons in FE7 are named "Emblem Sword" and etc. whereas they're named "X's Sword" in the Japanese version--X being the Tactician's name and if you use the default name, you get "Mark's Sword", which can be read as "Mark Sword" (and thus is synonymous with "Emblem Sword").

[Onestep]

It seems similar enough to me. Mix blood -> get power. Half-manaketes don't always have the ability to transform (eg. Sophia). If Manaketes are descended from Laguz, there's been centuries in between for them to evolve and possibly the effects of mixing their blood with that of humans changes.

That's silly. You're silly. We don't even know for sure that Elibe Manaketes are the same species as Akaneia Manaketes. And secondly, there's been no example of a blood bond ever giving a character the power to turn into a dragon, for instance. Which barring a singular case, seems to be a typical ability for manakete-human hybrids across the entire series and a uniform one in the Akaneia series.

My theory was that the 12 Crusaders were made into artificial manakete-human hybrids; because the process was different, or less chaotic, or performed with a purpose in mind, they were able to choose the abilities gained.

That's silly. You're silly. There's absolutely no evidence for that. And that would have far-reaching implciations, such as MU being a manakete-human hybrid, along with the first king of Iris and every other person with a Major Holy Blood, so it shouldn't be thrown around without some proof.

[Baldrick]

That's silly. You're silly. We don't even know for sure that Elibe Manaketes are the same species as Akaneia Manaketes.

I don't know how canon the DLC stuff is, but it suggests all FE games take place in the same world, or different worlds traversable by a gate (and where did Ninian come from?) Given how many similarities EM and AM have (seal their energy inside stones and take human form, used to be able to maintain Dragon form permanently, come in Divine, Fire and Ice flavours), it's not unreasonable to assume a rule for one applies to the other until proven otherwise.

And secondly, there's been no example of a blood bond ever giving a character the power to turn into a dragon, for instance. Which barring a singular case, seems to be a typical ability for manakete-human hybrids across the entire series and a uniform one in the Akaneia series.

Are there any canon hybrids in Awakening? I don't think a potential half-manakete who may well only have the power to transform for gameplay purposes are conclusive proof that hybrids in general have that power.

That's silly. You're silly. There's absolutely no evidence for that. And that would have far-reaching implciations, such as MU being a manakete-human hybrid, along with the first king of Iris and every other person with a Major Holy Blood, so it shouldn't be thrown around without some proof.

1. Emphasis is mine:

Celice, I'll just cut to the chase. The gods you and I know from scripture are of the same Dragon Tribe as Loputousu is.

So the warriors ingested the blood of the Dragon Tribe and were reborn as the Crusaders.

2. All of the Crusader’s descendants have the blood of dragons in them, and some can even use their special weapons; even though after the First Holy War was finished, there was no need for their influence.

3. Levin gradually lost his humanity after receiving Holsety.

[LordEphidel]

It seems quite unfeasible to me for dragons to have significantly evolved over the course of a few centuries, or even several millennia for that matter. Their lifespans are far extended beyond human years, and if I were to guess, I would approximate the minimum length of time between generations to be roughly a thousand years based on Nono. I believe that this value would be less for the original Laguz tribes, but still certainly measured in centuries, and thus still too long for more than a few generations to have existed during whatever time difference between Radiant Dawn and Awakening. To put this into perspective, it is the rough equivalent of stating that your great grandfather was a chimpanzee from whom you evolved. I am fairly certain that manaketes and the dragon Laguz are connected, just as I am fairly certain that this is not the method used to do so.

[Onestep]

I don't know how canon the DLC stuff is, but it suggests all FE games take place in the same world, or different worlds traversable by a gate (and where did Ninian come from?) Given how many similarities EM and AM have (seal their energy inside stones and take human form, used to be able to maintain Dragon form permanently, come in Divine, Fire and Ice flavours), it's not unreasonable to assume a rule for one applies to the other until proven otherwise.

The key difference between the two is that EM don't undergo degeneration. They simply don't possess the power to retain their forms. AM could potentially be in Dragon form all the time, but it would drive them into becoming little more than wild monsters like the Earth Dragons.

Are there any canon hybrids in Awakening? I don't think a potential half-manakete who may well only have the power to transform for gameplay purposes are conclusive proof that hybrids in general have that power.

There are several different half-manaketes in the game. Nn is the daughter of Nono and no matter who the father is, possesses the power of a full manakete. Mark, whether born of Nono or Tiki, also possesses that power. Even if Nn is her mother, making her no more than a quarter manakete, Mark can still transform. You can claim gameplay convenience all you like, but in Tiki's supports with Nn, she specifically discusses Nn's transformed state at least. A conversation topic that comes up in several other Nn supports too. In fact, Tiki states that up till now there have been no hybrids at all in Akaneia. So from a grouping of three hybrids, all of them have the ability to transform. Conclusive proof? Maybe not. A strong indication? Definitely.

1. Emphasis is mine:

2. All of the Crusader's descendants have the blood of dragons in them, and some can even use their special weapons; even though after the First Holy War was finished, there was no need for their influence.

3. Levin gradually lost his humanity after receiving Holsety.

So they ingested their blood and were reborn. What does that mean exactly? 'Reborn' is a very bizzare word that can mean a stupid number of things in different contexts. Was it a spiritual rebirth, renewing them with fresh purpose? A physical rebirth? At the very least, Tiki treats MU and Krom, both Major Blood holders, the exact same as she'd treat any other human. And she's probably the closest thing to an expert on the subject still kicking around. Well, unless you count Naga's spirit.

They have 'something' in them that makes it possible for them to wield the holy weapons. What exactly it is is a little ambigous. We know essentially nothing about what a blood-bond entails. Dragons in Akaneia seem to have their own form of magic, which has barely been touched upon in any game so far. They're also capable of literally surviving as spirits, so it's quite possible that the blood-bond actualyl leave a small piece of their soul in the bonded, which is potentially passed down to succeeding generations. This is all speculation of course.

Levin was possessed by Holsety. That's a different story to just a blood-bond. Every single character who's been possessed by a Dragon has been shown to undergo huge changes, such as Yurius, Levin and BadFuture!MU. Blood-bonder's have been shown to be essentially human physically.

[NeonZ]

It seems quite unfeasible to me for dragons to have significantly evolved over the course of a few centuries, or even several millennia for that matter. Their lifespans are far extended beyond human years, and if I were to guess, I would approximate the minimum length of time between generations to be roughly a thousand years based on Nono. I believe that this value would be less for the original Laguz tribes, but still certainly measured in centuries, and thus still too long for more than a few generations to have existed during whatever time difference between Radiant Dawn and Awakening. To put this into perspective, it is the rough equivalent of stating that your great grandfather was a chimpanzee from whom you evolved. I am fairly certain that manaketes and the dragon Laguz are connected, just as I am fairly certain that this is not the method used to do so.

As far as the dragons changing go, in both Archanea's and Elibe's backstory, they used to be able to take the dragon form naturally and then there was an event that forced them all to abruptly change to Dragon stones. If Manaketes are actually Dragon Laguz then that event was what triggered a sudden transition between them.

Edited July 9, 2012 by NeonZ

[Baldrick]

It seems quite unfeasible to me for dragons to have significantly evolved over the course of a few centuries, or even several millennia for that matter. Their lifespans are far extended beyond human years, and if I were to guess, I would approximate the minimum length of time between generations to be roughly a thousand years based on Nono. I believe that this value would be less for the original Laguz tribes, but still certainly measured in centuries, and thus still too long for more than a few generations to have existed during whatever time difference between Radiant Dawn and Awakening. To put this into perspective, it is the rough equivalent of stating that your great grandfather was a chimpanzee from whom you evolved. I am fairly certain that manaketes and the dragon Laguz are connected, just as I am fairly certain that this is not the method used to do so.

Generations wouldn't mean as much to dragons, since there's no set age to have kids; Dheginsea is older than Nasir, but his son seems to be around the same age as Nasir's granddaughter (I'm not sure, but I doubt he'd be much older). And evolution doesn't necessarily have to be the slow, Darwinian kind; both kinds of Manaketes went from having no human form to having human as the default in a single event, the reverse could easily have happened (the development of a Formshift Manual, a Beginning Summer event, etc.)

The key difference between the two is that EM don't undergo degeneration. They simply don't possess the power to retain their forms. AM could potentially be in Dragon form all the time, but it would drive them into becoming little more than wild monsters like the Earth Dragons.

A single event caused both to acquire human forms and require to seal their energy in stones. The only difference was EM were forcibly reverted, and AM needed to revert or they lost their minds. It could be due to difference in the species, or could be due to the circumstances; (eg. EM were at the source of the Ending Winter and got hit by the backlash, and the Day of Ruin happened while AM were scattered all over the world).

There are several different half-manaketes in the game. Nn is the daughter of Nono and no matter who the father is, possesses the power of a full manakete. Mark, whether born of Nono or Tiki, also possesses that power. Even if Nn is her mother, making her no more than a quarter manakete, Mark can still transform. You can claim gameplay convenience all you like, but in Tiki's supports with Nn, she specifically discusses Nn's transformed state at least. A conversation topic that comes up in several other Nn supports too. In fact, Tiki states that up till now there have been no hybrids at all in Akaneia. So from a grouping of three hybrids, all of them have the ability to transform.

Three swallows do not make a summer. I could easily say Roy, Elbert and Eliwood suggest you can't rule Pherae unless you have red hair. Having said that, it does suggest that it's the norm, but it's by no means conclusive proof.

So they ingested their blood and were reborn. What does that mean exactly? 'Reborn' is a very bizzare word that can mean a stupid number of things in different contexts. Was it a spiritual rebirth, renewing them with fresh purpose? A physical rebirth?

The latter is most likely. If it was the former, their descendants wouldn't have Holy Blood. There must have been a change to the Crusader's DNA.

At the very least, Tiki treats MU and Krom, both Major Blood holders, the exact same as she'd treat any other human. And she's probably the closest thing to an expert on the subject still kicking around. Well, unless you count Naga's spirit.

Tiki says there haven't been any hybrids in Akaneia. So she'd probably consider people as either Manaketes or Humans, and Major Blood Holders, having no Manakete ancestors, no ability to transform and only a little Manakete power, would be closer to Humans.

They have 'something' in them that makes it possible for them to wield the holy weapons. What exactly it is is a little ambigous.

Blood. It is dragon's blood. Blood ingested by the Crusaders, passed on to their descendants.

We know essentially nothing about what a blood-bond entails. Dragons in Akaneia seem to have their own form of magic, which has barely been touched upon in any game so far. They're also capable of literally surviving as spirits, so it's quite possible that the blood-bond actualyl leave a small piece of their soul in the bonded, which is potentially passed down to succeeding generations. This is all speculation of course.

Even in that case, they'd still count as Manakete/Human hybrids (albeit on the soul level rather than the genetic level).

Levin was possessed by Holsety. That's a different story to just a blood-bond. Every single character who's been possessed by a Dragon has been shown to undergo huge changes, such as Yurius, Levin and BadFuture!MU. Blood-bonder's have been shown to be essentially human physically.

In Chapter 4, after touching Holsety, Levin seems to be visibly affected. But most of the personality change comes in Gen 2, so I'll concede that. It was my weakest point anyway.

[Othin]

I thought Ena was older than Kurthnaga.

[LordEphidel]

Generations wouldn't mean as much to dragons, since there's no set age to have kids; Dheginsea is older than Nasir, but his son seems to be around the same age as Nasir's granddaughter (I'm not sure, but I doubt he'd be much older). And evolution doesn't necessarily have to be the slow, Darwinian kind; both kinds of Manaketes went from having no human form to having human as the default in a single event, the reverse could easily have happened (the development of a Formshift Manual, a Beginning Summer event, etc.)

The fact that two dragons can be a generation apart while still being of a relatively similar age is ultimately irrelevant. Yes, some generations may be shorter than others, but even the shortest are measured in centuries regardless.

As for your point about the timeframe of evolution, there are two possible scenarios that I can conceive. First is that some cataclysmic event rendered those incapable of transforming into a human form unfit, but the underlying assumption for this is that there was some preexisting variation among dragon kind where some could transform and others cannot. There is no evidence supporting this assumption, and while that does not automatically make it false, it does make it quite unlikely.

The alternative is that some unknown magical event occurred that forcibly changed all the preexisting dragons. This seems to be the more likely option, particularly when considering that something quite similar to the concept has occurred in the past–the Ending Winter. But because this would directly modify those dragons already in existence, this cannot be considered evolution any more than a group of humans collectively deciding to, say, stretch their earlobes to enormous proportions. Yes it may be strange and it may happen to their entire race, but that does not change the fact that it was artificially produced.

Edited July 9, 2012 by LordEphidel

[Book of Ereshkigal]

The thing is, it changes future generations, while stretching earlobes does not.

[The_Purple_Knight]

Why bring actually science into this ? It's not like giant lizards turning into people is actually possible . Who knows how , they change every generation .

[LordEphidel]

The thing is, it changes future generations, while stretching earlobes does not.

While I still believe that it fails to qualify as evolution due to how artificial the change was, I can understand how some might feel otherwise in light of your point. Both interpretations seem valid enough to me, so I see no purpose me arguing what precisely qualifies as evolution any further.

Why bring actually science into this ? It's not like giant lizards turning into people is actually possible . Who knows how , they change every generation .

Even if science as we know it does not apply here, there is always some sense of order present, as must be the case with any halfway coherent story; any rule can be broken when writing, so long as it is broken consistently. There is clearly some sort of magic present that makes it possible for said giant lizards to turn into people, evidently some property of their dragonstones, while there is no evidence whatsoever that they can evolve at a different relative pace from other organisms. Rather, the fact that Nasir and Ena show no great variation from one another [besides those arising from the fact that they are of different tribes] serves as strong evidence to the contrary.

Edited July 9, 2012 by LordEphidel

[Onestep]

A single event caused both to acquire human forms and require to seal their energy in stones. The only difference was EM were forcibly reverted, and AM needed to revert or they lost their minds. It could be due to difference in the species, or could be due to the circumstances; (eg. EM were at the source of the Ending Winter and got hit by the backlash, and the Day of Ruin happened while AM were scattered all over the world).

I'd suspect species. Note that Tiki states there were no Hybrids in Akaneia before now in her support with Nn, which suggests that wherever the EM went, it wasn't Akaneia. Or Nils at the least would have something to say about that.

Three swallows do not make a summer. I could easily say Roy, Elbert and Eliwood suggest you can't rule Pherae unless you have red hair. Having said that, it does suggest that it's the norm, but it's by no means conclusive proof.

Agreed. Didn't I say exactly that though?

The latter is most likely. If it was the former, their descendants wouldn't have Holy Blood. There must have been a change to the Crusader's DNA.

Tiki says there haven't been any hybrids in Akaneia. So she'd probably consider people as either Manaketes or Humans, and Major Blood Holders, having no Manakete ancestors, no ability to transform and only a little Manakete power, would be closer to Humans.

Blood. It is dragon's blood. Blood ingested by the Crusaders, passed on to their descendants.

Even in that case, they'd still count as Manakete/Human hybrids (albeit on the soul level rather than the genetic level).

My suspicion is that the blood-bond affects the spirit rather than the flesh. At the very least, Dragonslayer weapons have no special effect on even a Major Blood holder, while they mutilate a quarter-manakete in action. It would also be in line with Tiki's 'Akaneia hasn't had any hybrids' statement. It would also explain how Dragon's can genuinely possess bonded in the right circumstances. I see it as something like a barcode that get's pasted onto the soul. This is all just speculation though.

Although, I've noticed that the Iris Holy Blood seems to act differently to the Jugdral Holy Blood. That is to say, there are less actual halfway comprehensible genetics involved. Notice that Lucina will always possess Naga Major, as will Wood, while Mark doesn't seem to possess Gimle Major no matter who her mother was. Or Naga Major, if Lucina or Krom was her/his mother/father.

It's a bit of a confusing mess actually. I kind of hope the Lucina/Mark Mother/Daughter support will throw some more light on the matter.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Onestep

[Othin]

I kind of hope the Lucina/Mark Mother/Daughter support will throw some more light on the matter.

Not likely; those parent/child supports seem to be generic.

[Only My Unit]

Actually in the Lucy/Mark support Mark can wield Falchion. And Othin, I think they were talking about Raj.

[Othin]

Actually in the Lucy/Mark support Mark can wield Falchion. And Othin, I think they were talking about Raj.

That one's an exception because it's male Mark's only sibling support.

[Only My Unit]

I'm wondering what exactly Gimle blood does anyways. All of the other holy bloods did something special, but Lopt. and Gimle only seem to make one posession-bait.

[Othin]

Loptos blood allowed Julius to use the Loptos book, as well. It just came with some unfortunate side-effects.

As for Gimle blood, Fauder shares it, and he seems to have been screwing around with dark magic more than others - perhaps not a coincidence. He picked up that whole changed appearance along with special abilities like the Evil Dragon Scale skill. MU didn't get any of that, but he/she also didn't mess around with dark magic as much, and it's plausible that the Gimle blood was what allowed Fauder to do so to that extent.