Pokemon Black/White 2 Ingame Tier List

[Titamon]

Snivy is upper-mid material?

That's not the impression I'm getting from him so far . . .

[Espinosa]

- fast

- good movepool

- Growth at L13 makes the first gym possible without much grinding on Challenge Mode

- isn't afraid of Excadrill, good against Elesa and Marlon

- sets up with Coil

- helpful against Dragons

- can tank hits

Only real problem is 75 base in attacking stats, so you'll always want him to hit stronger, but there's no perfect Pokemon in this game, or one that's even close (Magnemite is probably the closest and still has a plethora of drawbacks)

[Lord Raven]

good movepool? You'll have to explain that one to me

[eclipse]

I decided that Coil was the bee's knees, so I ran with that. The result was Aqua Tail/Leaf Blade/Coil/(Return/Iron Tail). Aqua Tail gets rid of Fire, and Coil mitigates the accuracy problems. Leaf Blade is obvious. Iron Tail's advantages over Return are that it hits Ice hard, and it doesn't whiff Ghosts. It's probably not winning a toe-to-toe battle against something like Chandelure, but the move set I outlined above swept Marshall (Coil x6, pound away).

[Lord Raven]

Yeah but the Snivy line falls really flat against like everything else. Before it even gets Coil it suffers from poor movepool and attacking stats, and even after it gets Coil it doesn't have good movepool for a while.

Iron Tail is also really inaccurate (around 70-75% accuracy?) so I wouldn't rely too much on it. I would honestly switch my Pokemon before I placed Serperior or someone against an Ice- or Fire-type. Coil takes too long to set up too (especially 6 times) especially if you're going up against like a Special attack or something. I would still much much MUCH rather switch Serperior out than Coil -> move that has advantage against his weaknesses.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah but the Snivy line falls really flat against like everything else. Before it even gets Coil it suffers from poor movepool and attacking stats, and even after it gets Coil it doesn't have good movepool for a while.

Iron Tail is also really inaccurate (around 70-75% accuracy?) so I wouldn't rely too much on it. I would honestly switch my Pokemon before I placed Serperior or someone against an Ice- or Fire-type. Coil takes too long to set up too (especially 6 times) especially if you're going up against like a Special attack or something. I would still much much MUCH rather switch Serperior out than Coil -> move that has advantage against his weaknesses.

Coil boosts accuracy as well.

[Raven]

My own Serperior has Leaf Blade, Giga Drain, Leech Seed and Coil, and is holding Leftovers. Great in most situations since Leech Seed takes chunks out of the enemy Pokemon while you're Coil spamming. Then you're set up nicely to sweep with Leaf Blade. Just need to watch out for crits and faster Pokes. And Special Attacks.

Edit: Although I have been thinking about changing Giga Drain since Leech Seed and Leftovers usually heals enough.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Raven

[Anouleth]

Yeah but the Snivy line falls really flat against like everything else. Before it even gets Coil it suffers from poor movepool and attacking stats, and even after it gets Coil it doesn't have good movepool for a while.

Iron Tail is also really inaccurate (around 70-75% accuracy?) so I wouldn't rely too much on it.

Coil boosts accuracy, so that's a non-issue.

I would honestly switch my Pokemon before I placed Serperior or someone against an Ice- or Fire-type. Coil takes too long to set up too (especially 6 times) especially if you're going up against like a Special attack or something. I would still much much MUCH rather switch Serperior out than Coil -> move that has advantage against his weaknesses.

Coil does not take too long to set up. There's a reason that speedruns pick Snivy, and it ain't for his winning personality.

[dondon151]

serperior really got a boost with the coverage moves that he got from the move tutors in b2w2 (especially aqua tail)

he's still really mediocre before getting coil at L38, though. growth is nice but not nearly as awesome as coil. if anything i'd say that he's probably a bit underrated on the tier list.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah but one use of Coil doesn't help it that much I'd think. Serperior seems like it's salvaged a little bit by Coil but it doesn't seem like its enough for upper-mid

It gets Coil at Level 38? Until then you just have kind of a mediocre Pokemon... I don't feel that's upper mid material at all.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Espinosa]

I'd keep Growth on its set over Coil personally, and you don't have to wait for Growth at all (you'll have it for the first gym for sure on CM). Growth boosts both of its offensive stats, powering up physical moves like Vine Whip and Return as well as special ones like Leaf Tornado or Mega Drain.

It's not too far into the game where you get access to the purchasable weather TMs, and in intense sun, +2 increases every time you use Growth makes Snivy's offence very threatening. Growth also results in some really mean Giga Drains.

One advantage Serperior has over the other two starters is good setup with a naturally high speed stat, whereas Emboar needs to keep the mediocre Flame Charge on its set to outspeed a lot of things and Samurott waits forever until Swords Dance and can't do much about its speed.

[Anouleth]

I'd keep Growth on its set over Coil personally, and you don't have to wait for Growth at all (you'll have it for the first gym for sure on CM). Growth boosts both of its offensive stats, powering up physical moves like Vine Whip and Return as well as special ones like Leaf Tornado or Mega Drain.

Why, precisely, would you use Leaf Tornado when Leaf Blade is stronger, more accurate, and has a better secondary effect? Coil is so much better than Growth, it's crazy. The only reason you might pick Growth is to boost Giga Drain, and even then, the defense boost from Coil is usually more pertinent to survival than having a stronger Giga Drain.

It's not too far into the game where you get access to the purchasable weather TMs, and in intense sun, +2 increases every time you use Growth makes Snivy's offence very threatening. Growth also results in some really mean Giga Drains.

It's just as fast to use Coil twice and get +2 attack and +2 defense is it is to use Sunny Day, then growth, and you'll take less damage in the process and be more durable at the end of it, as well as giving you an extra moveslot.

[Espinosa]

Why, precisely, would you use Leaf Tornado when Leaf Blade is stronger, more accurate, and has a better secondary effect? Coil is so much better than Growth, it's crazy. The only reason you might pick Growth is to boost Giga Drain, and even then, the defense boost from Coil is usually more pertinent to survival than having a stronger Giga Drain.

One reason is that Leaf Tornado exists for 16 more levels and is usually preferred over Mega Drain for a half of this period due to the stronger BP. If you plan to run any special moves at all, clearly you'll replace it with Energy Ball (as soon as you can both surf and fly, which is right after Clay), which does the job until Giga Drain a dozen levels later. Leaf Blade benefits as much from Growth as it does from Coil, though.

Giga Drain has extra PP and very high base power now, so the stronger it gets, the more HP you're draining back. Accuracy increases coming from Coil are completely unnecessary unless you're running the aforementioned set including Aqua and/or Iron Tail.

It's just as fast to use Coil twice and get +2 attack and +2 defense is it is to use Sunny Day, then growth, and you'll take less damage in the process and be more durable at the end of it, as well as giving you an extra moveslot.

That's if the +2 boost is sufficient to ensure a safe sweep, which may not be the case. If you're going for, say, a +6 boost (to OHKO all gym leader's or elite member's team), Sunny Day + 3 Growths takes only four turns, whereas 6 Coils takes six, leaving you at the threat of a more likely critical that will disregard the defence boosts entirely. Running both moves does leave you with one free moveslot (which is probably used on one of the physical coverage attacks or Dragon Pulse), but at least you can replenish your HP back with an absurdly boosted Giga Drain. Using a Hyper Potion instead leaves you vulnerable to whatever is coming next and in a way makes the turn spent using the potion a turn of sandbagging. With Giga Drain you attack AND get your full HP back.

Coil also doesn't defend you against special moves, for example the special ice and flying type moves used by Marlon's team, while Giga Drain at least permits you to get your HP back.

[Raven]

Coil also doesn't defend you against special moves, for example the special ice and flying type moves used by Marlon's team, while Giga Drain at least permits you to get your HP back.

Personally I prefer using Leech Seed/Leftovers over Giga Drain. Leech Seed gives you equal HP to what was drained, while GD gives only half. Especially great when you're sucking life from a Pokemon with a huge HP stat.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Raven

[Anouleth]

One reason is that Leaf Tornado exists for 16 more levels and is usually preferred over Mega Drain for a half of this period due to the stronger BP. If you plan to run any special moves at all, clearly you'll replace it with Energy Ball (as soon as you can both surf and fly, which is right after Clay), which does the job until Giga Drain a dozen levels later. Leaf Blade benefits as much from Growth as it does from Coil, though.

I still don't get it. Why, upon turning level 38 and having the choice to ditch Growth for Coil, would you still have Leaf Tornado in your move set?

Giga Drain has extra PP and very high base power now, so the stronger it gets, the more HP you're draining back. Accuracy increases coming from Coil are completely unnecessary unless you're running the aforementioned set including Aqua and/or Iron Tail.

Water coverage is not undesirable.

That's if the +2 boost is sufficient to ensure a safe sweep, which may not be the case. If you're going for, say, a +6 boost (to OHKO all gym leader's or elite member's team), Sunny Day + 3 Growths takes only four turns, whereas 6 Coils takes six, leaving you at the threat of a more likely critical that will disregard the defence boosts entirely.

Serperior would need to take two criticals in order to take more damage over the course of a 6 turn Coil setup than over the course of a 4 turn Growth setup.

Running both moves does leave you with one free moveslot (which is probably used on one of the physical coverage attacks or Dragon Pulse),

Dragon Pulse is unlikely, for the same reasons as Superpower.

but at least you can replenish your HP back with an absurdly boosted Giga Drain. Using a Hyper Potion instead leaves you vulnerable to whatever is coming next and in a way makes the turn spent using the potion a turn of sandbagging. With Giga Drain you attack AND get your full HP back.

And why do you need to get your full HP back? Serperior is supposed to be sweeping. The whole point of spending four to six turns boosting is so that he can sweep.

If you plan to use the weaker Giga Drain instead of Leaf Blade, you will need to take longer setting up. A Coil sweeper would do as much damage with a +5 Leaf Blade as with a +6 Giga Drain.

Coil also doesn't defend you against special moves, for example the special ice and flying type moves used by Marlon's team, while Giga Drain at least permits you to get your HP back.

Coil is still probably a better move against Marlon since Jellicent is stronger on the specially defensive side. And setting up Sunny Day against Wailord can be easily frustrated because he carries Rain Dance. Regardless, I think that Marlon is the least of Serperior's problems.

[Espinosa]

Personally I prefer using Leech Seed/Leftovers over Giga Drain. Leech Seed gives you equal HP to what was drained, while GD gives only half. Especially great when you're sucking life from a Pokemon with a huge HP stat.

You neglected to mention what 'full' and 'half' refer to. If you OHKO something with Giga Drain, you get half of its max HP to restore yours. Leech Seed just drains 1/8 max HP every turn, and it misses once out of ten uses on average.

I still don't get it. Why, upon turning level 38 and having the choice to ditch Growth for Coil, would you still have Leaf Tornado in your move set?

You won't, you'll have the Energy Ball TM by then. What I said is that for 16 levels, the physical alternative to using Leaf Tornado is Vine Whip (35 BP). Bullet Seed doesn't exist here (though it would kick ass surely, but they had to make it inaccessible as soon as they made very substantial adjustments to its base power).

Water coverage is not undesirable.

Dragon Pulse is unlikely, for the same reasons as Superpower.

Aqua Tail costs only 2 less Blue Shards compared to Dragon Pulse, and the latter has super-effective damage against two of the trickiest trainers in the game - Drayden and Iris. What trainers specialising in fire, rock or ground types exist that you'll be using Aqua Tail on? If you're farming those blue shards, might as well farm a couple more and learn the move with more relevance to completing the game.

And why do you need to get your full HP back? Serperior is supposed to be sweeping. The whole point of spending four to six turns boosting is so that he can sweep.

If you plan to use the weaker Giga Drain instead of Leaf Blade, you will need to take longer setting up. A Coil sweeper would do as much damage with a +5 Leaf Blade as with a +6 Giga Drain.

So that you don't have to use a potion later OR when you lack the coverage to OHKO something with whatever stat boosts you accumulated, allowing you to survive its attack and 2HKO.

Also, Leaf Blade might be preferable to Giga Drain for raw damage, but that's an argument for Leaf Blade > Giga Drain, rather than Coil > Growth. Growth still provides you with +6 attack after 3 turns of setup in intense sun, while Coil doesn't have any impact whatsoever on Giga Drain's strength.

Coil is still probably a better move against Marlon since Jellicent is stronger on the specially defensive side. And setting up Sunny Day against Wailord can be easily frustrated because he carries Rain Dance. Regardless, I think that Marlon is the least of Serperior's problems.

The bigger problem is probably Mantine, who's not weak to any move Serperior carries and whose special bulk is vastly superior to Jellicent's even not factoring type advantages into account. It has Air Slash for you, too. Wailord won't use Rain Dance against you because it puts you into KO range with the first Ice Beam, so you either use Growth without setting up sun or have something else other than Serperior set up the sun (like a suicide Cottonee lead with Prankster). Jellicent fails to threaten Serperior in any imaginable way, and you can easily 2HKO with unboosted Giga Drain or Leaf Blade.

Serperior would need to take two criticals in order to take more damage over the course of a 6 turn Coil setup than over the course of a 4 turn Growth setup.

Only if you're setting up against a physical attacker, which may not always be the case. Some of the leads of endgame trainers, like Marshalls Throh, will simply hit you with a move that's auto-critical (Storm Throw). It's also important to remember that even with Serperior's defensive bases, a single crit is very likely to end your attempt at setting up with a premature KO.

[dondon151]

i don't understand what you're saying at all. how is vine whip vs. leaf tornado relevant? how is growth's atk boost relevant when you're using giga drain? if you dedicate 2 moveslots to setup, then you're left 1 coverage moveslot, and his physical options aren't that good when not accuracy-boosted. what's the point in giga drain healing if you're already OHKOing and don't care about healing? why is vulnerability to special attacks a problem for coil when vulnerability to both kinds of attacks is a bigger problem for growth, especially because it's not until your second turn of setup that you're seeing any stat boosts?

the obvious solution for setting up against special attackers is to use an x sp. def. beforehand. at least after coil setup, you're a tank against all sorts of attacks, and serperior is pretty bulky. but i don't understand why you say that coil setup is vulnerable to critical hits when growth setup is equally vulnerable to critical hits AND is more vulnerable during setup because you can't growth and giga drain at the same time.

[Raven]

You neglected to mention what 'full' and 'half' refer to. If you OHKO something with Giga Drain, you get half of its max HP to restore yours. Leech Seed just drains 1/8 max HP every turn, and it misses once out of ten uses on average.

Yes, I was in a rush to get my post posted at the time.

Leech Seed drains 1/16th HP per turn. But anyway, in my post what I meant was point for point, Leech Seed gives you back more HP (eg. you drain 20hp, you get 20hp back) especially when paired up with Leftovers. It's very useful to use before you start setting up with Coil.

Edit: If you're worried about Leech Seed's 90% accuracy then using Coil once will help. Then you'll have gradual HP recovery at the cost of a single turn while you spend the rest of your turns setting up Coil as opposed to wasting a turn using Giga Drain with no Coil set up to sweep.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Raven

[Shadow Mir]

I don't think a moveset that's centered around Sunny Day and Growth is a good one... the shortcomings are rather severe IMO (mainly the one about needing two moveslots for setup).

Edited November 19, 2012 by Levant Fortner

[FrostyFireMage]

My Serperior's move-set is Leaf Blade/Aqua Tail/Coil/Light Screen while holding Leftovers. It can tank physical attacks with Coil, and Light Screen is there to protect against special attacks.

Aqua Tail is for countering Fire types and preventing Steel types from walling it.

[Espinosa]

i don't understand what you're saying at all. how is vine whip vs. leaf tornado relevant? how is growth's atk boost relevant when you're using giga drain? if you dedicate 2 moveslots to setup, then you're left 1 coverage moveslot, and his physical options aren't that good when not accuracy-boosted. what's the point in giga drain healing if you're already OHKOing and don't care about healing? why is vulnerability to special attacks a problem for coil when vulnerability to both kinds of attacks is a bigger problem for growth, especially because it's not until your second turn of setup that you're seeing any stat boosts?

the obvious solution for setting up against special attackers is to use an x sp. def. beforehand. at least after coil setup, you're a tank against all sorts of attacks, and serperior is pretty bulky. but i don't understand why you say that coil setup is vulnerable to critical hits when growth setup is equally vulnerable to critical hits AND is more vulnerable during setup because you can't growth and giga drain at the same time.

Anouleth and I were discussing the possibility of dropping Growth for Coil, and I mentioned the usefulness of Growth being present for the many levels it exists prior to learning Coil.

We were talking about the number of turns it takes for Coil and Sunny Day/Growth sets to fully power up Serperior's attack. The latter takes 4 turns, and your chance to eat a critical hit is ~22,5%. If you use Coil, you stay in for 2 more turns and there is an approximately 32% chance that you'll be struck with a critical attack during setup. 4 turns of Growth setup can be reduced to 3 if something else (like Cottonee) sets up Sunny Day, further reducing risk of KO.

Most of the endgame leads use special moves, and those that don't have an attack that is either a guaranteed critical (Throh) or has an increased chance to crit (Liepard). If a Coil Serperior can use X. Sp Def (or set up Light Screen, but that requires a moveslot), one that runs Growth can do exactly the same, and it could X Def too, without wasting a moveslot for Coil. However, the Coil variant can't be helped by items to restore its HP on the same turn it deals damage (which is possible with Growth/Giga Drain).

Accuracy probably shouldn't be given such prominence because Aqua Tail and Iron Tail are the only two moves Serperior is likely to be using that have unreliable hit rates. Dragon Tail, your best physical option against dragon-type foes, has decreased priority and is unlikely to be used. HP recovery from Giga Drain (possibly continuous) can be desirable when you fail to OHKO on a subsequent turn, which is possible when 3 out of 4 E4 members run a steel-type (Aqua Tail is usually the best way to deal with them because you probably won't teach Rock Smash just for Bisharp and Aggron). Dragon Pulse still hits the dragons the hardest, and Coil does nothing to power it up.

[dondon151]

Anouleth and I were discussing the possibility of dropping Growth for Coil, and I mentioned the usefulness of Growth being present for the many levels it exists prior to learning Coil.

what does that have anything to do with growth vs. coil when coil can be learned?

We were talking about the number of turns it takes for Coil and Sunny Day/Growth sets to fully power up Serperior's attack. The latter takes 4 turns, and your chance to eat a critical hit is ~22,5%. If you use Coil, you stay in for 2 more turns and there is an approximately 32% chance that you'll be struck with a critical attack during setup. 4 turns of Growth setup can be reduced to 3 if something else (like Cottonee) sets up Sunny Day, further reducing risk of KO.

this is assuming that you even need to power up to 6 stages, or that serperior is 2HKO'd by the opponent. but here's the deal: if serperior is getting 2HKO'd, then he's never going to pull off a successful setup anyway. so he has to set up against an opponent that 3HKOs at worst. if you're at full HP, then a critical hit doesn't matter, because you'll just heal it back right away. you have greater leeway to be careful with coil because you'll be taking less and less damage, whereas with growth, 1 attack will put you in KO range of a critical hit.

if he is 2HKO'd, then you need an x item. clearly coil has the advantage here against physical opponents because coil boosts the attacking stats at the same time. frosty fire mage brings up a good point with light screen: it's better at blocking special damage than an x sp. def., and coil serperior has the moveslot to spare. growth serperior is stuck with sunny day. coil serperior can also run leech seed.

@ cottonee setting up sunny day: why don't we just baton pass +6/+6 atk/spe to serperior instead

Most of the endgame leads use special moves, and those that don't have an attack that is either a guaranteed critical (Throh) or has an increased chance to crit (Liepard). If a Coil Serperior can use X. Sp Def (or set up Light Screen, but that requires a moveslot), one that runs Growth can do exactly the same, and it could X Def too, without wasting a moveslot for Coil. However, the Coil variant can't be helped by items to restore its HP on the same turn it deals damage (which is possible with Growth/Giga Drain).

i don't get it. my understanding is that serperior will be at L36+ for a long time (probably at least 1/3 of the game). why do we keep pretending like only 4 battles matter?

Accuracy probably shouldn't be given such prominence because Aqua Tail and Iron Tail are the only two moves Serperior is likely to be using that have unreliable hit rates.

uh, slam? i don't remember when you get strength, but coil -> slam is pretty solid before you get coverage moves.

Dragon Tail, your best physical option against dragon-type foes, has decreased priority and is unlikely to be used. HP recovery from Giga Drain (possibly continuous) can be desirable when you fail to OHKO on a subsequent turn, which is possible when 3 out of 4 E4 members run a steel-type (Aqua Tail is usually the best way to deal with them because you probably won't teach Rock Smash just for Bisharp and Aggron). Dragon Pulse still hits the dragons the hardest, and Coil does nothing to power it up.

you could just use strength or iron tail

[RJWalker]

Why Iron Tail on Snivy. What can possibly do for it? Coverage against rock types? Grass covers that. It has low power, no good accuracy and without STAB and with snivy's bad offensive stats, it's just a very bad move choice.

Instead of putting an attack move just for the sake of it (espeically a bad move like iron tail), it's better to make use of it's support movepool.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Anouleth]

Not sure why you would use Slam or Strength over Return. Strength you might want to keep on Serperior in dungeons or stuff, but you won't be using it in Gyms.

[Raven]

Aye. With max friendship, Return's base power is like 100 or something.