Mafia of the Manly Men

[Strawman]

... What. Then you're saying you're scum? If Shinori said you and Bizz look particularly Town, and you assume that he could be from the Mafia (and buddying you and Bizz), you're also pointing yourself as scum. Which I don't understand.

Also, the only "defensive" part of BBM imo is that he justified his lack of activity with lack of information before our current state. But he still reacts a lot to people, especially on his last post, when he mentioned me and clipsey. >:

Your confidence troubles me, Shinori. What if Bizz/Straw are Town/Mafia respectively?

I was merely pointing out the possibility that mafia could be just as likely to vote someone acting suspicious as town are, especially early on. Of course I'm not calling myself scum, that would be incredibly dumb of me.

Plus, you seem to have the same opinions regarding the matter as seen in the quote above, so I don't see why me bringing up is so different than someone who wasn't on the wagon bringing it up.

As much as I appreciate Bizz's warning, it seems a little random at this point in the day. Especially when she already established random role discussion like that is iffy. But thanks.

##Unvote

I'm about to go hang out with friends so not gonna be saying much until I get back.

Oh, right, also Scorri its probably not good if I find it surprising that you're in the game when I saw that post =P pleeeease post something with thoughts and stuff sooooon :)

[scorri]

Straw: uhm... I was the one who you agreed with about Shinori...

Thoughts in a bit, sorry more stuff came up. :/

[Percivalé]

@strawman: you're sorely missing the point.

I 'claimed' early so that town doesn't cripple itself with pointless discussion on D2 in case I die. Thanks for completely misinterpreting everything, you lumped it together with everything else even though I actually had a reason and purpose for mentioning it. That's what makes it different from, say, arguing over elie's miller claim or continuing the SK/third-party stuff. That's pointless. But when I want to at least give town a fair warning to prevent something I see happen every game in which there are two deaths in a night phase, well

it's giving me the impression that maybe you're upset. I might die already and that upsets you, doesn't it? You're looking for an easy target and it won't work here.

[Percivalé]

also i'm on my phone.

Despite the shenanigans earlier in the day phase, I strongly think shinori is town, which might mean that BBM has a slightly better chance of being town but I'm not going to fully believe that just yet.

[scorri]

Alright, well then. First couple of pages is RVS stuff, not much of use in that, then discussion about a possible SK. I suppose it's possible there's one of those, but it's also possible extra kills are coming from a vig, or PGO, or some other source, so I agree with general consensus that there's not much use talking about that until we get more info.

Then people seem to start jumping on Shinori. At that point, I didn't find him very scummy. I thought he was pushing on people to get reactions and trying to promote discussion about one of the few things we had some minor amount of info on, however Bizz does have a good point about how Shinori really shouldn't use the "I always look scummy" argument. It really isn't a good excuse for acting scummy. If you're constantly getting thought of scummy for your play style, change something. It doesn't do any good for the town to be chasing its own tail because someone always looks scummy.

Rapier then steps in and sorta defends Shinori, sorta talks against him. He claims that he doesn't see anything really wrong with Shinori, but then says that the talk about the SK was wasting time. When Paper then votes Shinori for that, Rapier gets in an argument with Paper about that. People then start voting Rapier, and Shinori apparently finds them town because of this. This is when I start to have issues with Shinori. He basically claims that these people are town for voting Rapier, when honestly, I haven't found Rapier especially scummy. I've found him flipfloppy, but that happens to everyone. My main issue with Shinori is that he's just assumed people are town, but not really backed up those feelings. If he had explained things better than one line, I think I'd be more ok with him then.

BBM then comes under fire for wanting to wait until more people are around. Honestly, I kinda have to agree with people here. Just because people aren't around doesn't mean the ones who are around shouldn't talk. If you have thoughts, you should put them out there when you have them. Otherwise you might forget them and never post them. Plus, the more people post, the more we have to base scum hunting off later. Though I do agree that some people (including myself, I'll be honest) need to be posting more.

Some more arguing, Shinori explains why he thought people were townish (thanks for that! ^_^ ) And then more arguing and then we reach now. Basically, currently what I have as far as reads are

Townish: Elies, Eclipse, Bizz, maybe Shinori (after explaining himself and his comments, I'm more likely to go back to my earlier read)

Scumish: BBM, maaaaaaybe Rapier, and maybe Paper

Neutral or Null: everyone else

SO!

##unvote

##Vote:Aere

Exist please~

[Paperblade]

How is flip flopping and refusing to give good opinions any different from BBM refusing to give opinions?

Also, it's like 40 hours into D1 you have better things to do than vote inactives. If Aere is really inactive he will be subbed. If not, well, we can discuss that then.

[scorri]

Paper: Note that I have both Rapier and BBM under my scum read. I currently have a less read on Rapier because from my experience he just tends to appear scummier even if he is town. And Rapier is giving some opinions. They might not be the best opinions, but they are something.

[Paperblade]

There are a lot of people like that. What makes Rapier so special?

[scorri]

I dunno, I just have a slight scum read on him. It happens. Sometimes I get reads on people and don't quite know why. Maybe because he's been talking more than a lot of people I have more data points on him or something. It's not that he's special, it's just there's more stuff to get info from.

[CT075]

ok FUCK YOU COMPUTER I FINALLY GOT THE INTERNET WORKING AGAIN

welcome to cam's iso finds where after nearly two days in development cam says 'fuck it' to any kind of real anything and just quotedumps

My only problem with all that "There can be a SK" is that we're losing time with something that could or couldn't be. Instead, we should focus on more concrete stuff and ignore all the substantial stuff for now. I think people picked on you because of it for the possibility that you may be misleading us and making us discuss about a substantial thing. =P

What happened with the guy who said "Don't vote people for being stupid"?

No, wait, you actually said "bad logic isn't necessarily scummy". Why are you going agaisnt your word?

i'm not entirely sure if i'm even onto anything but in the first quote he talks about how he thinks that there's no point in discussing the possibility of a serial killer but then (in the same post, no less) jumps on paperblade for voting shinori because of it

that's the only real discrepancy i found on rapier

i'm doing bbm next

[CT075]

part 2

Don't bother investigating Elieson, cop. He's either mafia lying out of his ass (probably not) or he's the Town Miller. Either way, he'll show up as mafia, and you'll have wasted your N1 action.

kind of WIFOM-ing myself as i think about this but i'm leaning town since scum would probably want to waste the (theoretical) fullcop's time and/or get a mislynch on the potential miller

god dammit i need more info so i can do a scenario chart

that being said then i stumbled across this

Also, Eclipse, Helios, and Aere have posted only to make a random vote, and Psych, Nightmare, and Bizz haven't posted at all. I might be missing someone else, but just counting those people, that's nearly half of our players who've done nothing or close to it. I don't think there's a point to inactive voting any of the latter 3 at this point in time, and as for the former 3, Eclipse and Aere at least made their random votes at the very beginning when nobody else had posted yet. Helios came in just an hour and a half ago, when we were moving past that stage, and just dropped a one-liner about Elieson's claim, made a randomvote, and then left. So for now ##Vote: Helios

i don't even know what's up here

seeing as it was helios' first post (IIRC) in the thread that bbm's harping on, i don't see the issue. if anything it's a nulltell since he probably hadn't even had time to read anything and was just dropping a vote

there was some other stuff regarding clipsey's "HURRY UP" vote on me which was perfectly justified (stupid internet) but i'm not going to go over that since apparently he missed my earlier post?

what now...?

[Rapier]

@Helios- When did I say I found Rapier townie in any way? I told people to stop voting for him because hammer is 8 votes and for some reason I thought there were at least 5 on him. In that same post where I ask people to stop voting for him, I also

@Rapier:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I interpreted from the first line of this post: "Shinori did something stupid. But stupid doesn't mean scummy. So Shinori's not scum." Just because A doesn't cause B doesn't mean they can't occur simultaneously.

You are almost right. Let me fix your phrase: "Shinori did something stupid. But stupid doesn't mean scummy. So Shinori's not scum only because of that".

ok FUCK YOU COMPUTER I FINALLY GOT THE INTERNET WORKING AGAIN

welcome to cam's iso finds where after nearly two days in development cam says 'fuck it' to any kind of real anything and just quotedumps

i'm not entirely sure if i'm even onto anything but in the first quote he talks about how he thinks that there's no point in discussing the possibility of a serial killer but then (in the same post, no less) jumps on paperblade for voting shinori because of it

that's the only real discrepancy i found on rapier

i'm doing bbm next

Nope. Read your quote: I asked him why he voted on someone for doing something stupid when he said 'doing something stupid =/= being scum'. He later explained that Shinori's focus on discussing if there's a SK or not instead of saying anything is stupid and scummy, but I still don't agree with the last part.

That argument wouldn't be used agaisnt anyone else who'd vote Shinori, because it would only work with Paperblade. There's no way I'm defending him.

kind of WIFOM-ing myself as i think about this but i'm leaning town since scum would probably want to waste the (theoretical) fullcop's time and/or get a mislynch on the potential miller

god dammit i need more info so i can do a scenario chart

that being said then i stumbled across this

Or maybe he just wanted to look good by saying something Captain Obviouslishly obvious.

Hey! Does that mean there is only one kind of Cop? SK is a third-party, so it wouldn't sound like a threat to an Allignment Cop.

... Which reminds me, how is Ellie's fake Role PM going to say he's one of the scum if he's the SK? Maybe I didn't read it properly/forgot about an important detail.

[CT075]

Nope. Read your quote: I asked him why he voted on someone for doing something stupid when he said 'doing something stupid =/= being scum'. He later explained that Shinori's focus on discussing if there's a SK or not instead of saying anything is stupid and scummy, but I still don't agree with the last part.

That argument wouldn't be used agaisnt anyone else who'd vote Shinori, because it would only work with Paperblade. There's no way I'm defending him.

i'll accept that for now but why say anything at all then O_o

Or maybe he just wanted to look good by saying something Captain Obviouslishly obvious.

oh goddammit

[scorri]

Cam: Maybe try talking about what you feel about other people besides Rapier and BBM?

[Iris]

yes

is there a problem with that

If it was most other people, but it's you, Bizz.

also the Iris vote is because she wasn't contributing and was just going "WELL IN THIS PREVIOUS GAME THINGS WERE LIKE THIS" thanks Iris I think everyone knows about those games.

Was not consciously aware of this until you pointed it out -- then I went to ISO myself thinking "not all of my posts! ):", so exactly 4 posts, but whatever, I see your point.

[Iris]

Some more arguing, Shinori explains why he thought people were townish (thanks for that! ^_^ ) And then more arguing and then we reach now. Basically, currently what I have as far as reads are

Townish: Elies, Eclipse, Bizz, maybe Shinori (after explaining himself and his comments, I'm more likely to go back to my earlier read)

Scumish: BBM, maaaaaaybe Rapier, and maybe Paper

Neutral or Null: everyone else

SO!

##unvote

##Vote:Aere

Exist please~

Paper mostly beat me to this, but why are you voting an inactive when you have stated maybe three people you think are scummy? Town should probably mostly vote for who they think is scummy. Oh, and since you didn't list any explanation for Paperblade, why is he (maybe) scummy in your eyes?

[BBM]

also i'm on my phone.

Despite the shenanigans earlier in the day phase, I strongly think shinori is town, which might mean that BBM has a slightly better chance of being town but I'm not going to fully believe that just yet.

I'm all for things that make me seem more town, but why do you think Shinori being town would make me more town?

Also, Rapier, this is your post:

It is, but you admitted to know that it's stupid. And you said you don't lynch players just because they do something stupid. Still, he kept defending his point of view even after we gave him a lot of motives to give up on that...

That second line is a point against Shinori. Because it starts with "still", there's a strong implication that it's a contradiction of the first line. Therefore, I read the first line as one being in Shinori's favour, which caused me to read the conclusion of the first sentence as "Shinori's not scum", not "Shinori's not scum only because of that".

Going to ISO Paper because I'm getting a weird vibe from him.

[scorri]

Right, so my vote on Aere will probably not be my final vote. I'm not putting a vote on one of my three scummier vibes right now because I want to see more discussion from people before I solidify those decisions. My scum feel on Paper... I dunno, but something about his posts just rub me in the wrong way. Something just feels not quite right. Apparently this is how he plays as town because he's being active and not uninterested, but I dunno. It just feels... off somehow. That's why he's a maybe because it's just a purely instinctual feel as opposed to feel+specific post stuff.

[CT075]

Cam: Maybe try talking about what you feel about other people besides Rapier and BBM?

no real opinions at all

[BBM]

Hmm, I'm actually getting a tentative town read from Paper at the moment. We'll see.

And I forgot to do this in my last post, but ##Vote: Rapier

[Rapier]

Hmm, I'm actually getting a tentative town read from Paper at the moment. We'll see.

And I forgot to do this in my last post, but ##Vote: Rapier

Why have you decided to vote me only now?

[eclipse]

*lends dead fish to Cam*

Smack your compy for me, kthx.

FFS, BBM, people are allowed to have their own opinions. If they don't match yours, it doesn't mean they're auto-scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: Iris

Strawman responded to you, and you still have a vote on him? Were you not happy with the response or something?

[Percivalé]

BBM what is up with that Rapier vote

##Unvote: Rapier

##Vote: BBM

[Iris]

@eclipse: I actually unvoted him a while back, after his first response. Right here. I'll try to keep my votes/unvotes near the end of my posts so you don't miss them next time. For those wondering why I'm voteless, rereading thread to pick up on scumtells.

/ / getting townish vibes from eclipse so far

[Paperblade]

Also, a thought:

People should claim their CPS conversations (not anything said in it necessarily, just who it was with, when it started, when the first reply was sent, and who it was with). This will help if people flip later in the game to prevent "Oh well X told me this in a CPS!!!" fakeclaims.

Since mafia already have OC, they will not want to start a CPS with themselves. From this we can likely deduce patterns. I don't think there are any obvious downsides to this (other than that mafia know who is talking to who but they don't about what or how much).