Caliban of Sycorax Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The only reason anyone would purposely do Jerme's map is because it's easier to recruit Harken. And recruiting him on Kenneth's map is actually pretty easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Yeah, but under SERRA? THe staffbot with shit magic base, slow levelling, low move, and mediocre magic growth? 5->6 move, the same as your crush Dorcas. And a mediocre staffbot always beats a mediocre combat unit. Especially a mediocre combat unit with indirectly costs turns. Also, Bows can help with swordies, to a point 1) "To a point". As in, "it doesn't really help but it's not actively detrimental"? 2) Yes, Bows are useful. Which is why mono-bow users, like Wil and Rebecca, are so overpowered. Jerme isn't too bad if your team can take it on. Doesn't change the fact that Kenneth's map is always quicker. Edited July 18, 2012 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Oh boy....I'm going to get into some shit for this.... How is Guy>Vaida, he's just an earlyjoining unit, swordlocked and can make us go Jermes map. Doesn't have much earlygame power like Dorcas, and doesn't rape at 1-2 Range like Raven. Vaida is like Harken on a Wyvern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 guy's offence is roughly equal to dorcas, he wins by a landslide against axeguys and mercs, while dorcas wins knights and lancecavs if guy doesn't ke Vaida is really just a filler combat unit. Her flight isn't very valuable, since she can't ferry anybody useful. Her combat is pretty good, but at this point of the game, its largely unneeded until light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Well, I was just curious, but I believe that Vaida's contributions later on are>Guys combat early on, since the KE only lasts so long and has other competition. Like Eliwood, Marcus, maybe Matt/Lowen this early on. And I heard he costs turns, but then does Vaida cost turns? Also, Dorcas has the HP padding and 1-2 range, and can promote by pirate ship. I think I'm getting known for hyping axe infantry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Guy, while hard to recruit, doesnt cost turns if you know how to do it right. He has good earlygame offense with the KE. Hes low because hes locked to 1-2 range, frail and might force you to jerme. As for the Dorcas Guy comparison, Guy is beating Dorca's offense with the KE no questions asked, he doubles and has a very good chance of killing anything he touches. While Dorcas is only doubling in earlygame or soldiers/knights later on. Despite having 1-2 range access over Guy, he isnt gonna be ORKO'ing much with it except against slowed down eenmies. He needs to be spd blessed in order to do well later on. And that isnt very likely to happen with a 20% growth. Both Guy and Dorcas benefit a lot from having Matthew in the team. Dorcas because he wants the Pirate Ship speedwing and Guy to make it easier to recruit him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Noone uses KE better than Guy for a long, long time in HNM (possibly until Raven). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Matthew can recruit Guy without costing turns though, and it salvages his combat at the same time. Also, Jerme can be cleared faster than Kenneth is without a flier, or equal to what can be achieved with a flier. PKL managed 5 turns there, if I remember right. Edited July 19, 2012 by Serious Bababas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Guy, I think, is fine being above Vaida. He's available for all but 2 chapters of Hector's mode, whereas Vaida is available for only the last 6-7 chapters. She can't ferry Hector anywhere, unlike Heath or Florina. There are two chapters left in which we would want to ferry Hector to places - chapter 30, in which you don't necessarily need a flier. Rath + Warper works fine as well. Then chapter 32, where we want to ferry Hector to the throne, but Vaida can't. She's nice endgame power, if you need it. Guy forces us to Jerme's map, and that is a negative indeed. His strength has a tendency to not cooperate, but early game is arguably the most frustrating part of a draft. The Killing Edge makes Guy potent in early game, but it's not like when it breaks he will be useless ... if you've been properly training him. Guy > Vaida is fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 How does Raven save turns? I understand that he's good when Paired with Florina for bosskilling, but how does he save turns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Quite honestly ... Raven probably doesn't save turns if the rest of your team is competent. He's not mounted, so he's not getting anywhere faster than anyone else. If anyone's getting ferried anywhere, it's most likely going to be Hector - especially for those seize chapters. Conveniently, chapter 16 and 17 are both seize chapters and have armored bosses, whom Hector can smite with Wolf Beil if it still exists (and if you know what you're doing, you should still have some uses on it). Raven probably isn't going to do much in his recruitment chapter. If he's recruiting Lucius, he won't be doing anything. Otherwise, at the most, he can take out the archer(s) and the hammer fighter near his recruitment location. Assuming that he gains 1 level in chapter 17 (a generous assumption, by the way), he still won't have enough speed to double the enemies in 17x, meaning that he can't exactly "clear the way" for someone to get through to Fargus. If you train him up, then yes, he can be a potent boss killer. But the thing is ... a LOT of people can be boss-killers in a draft. Canas with Luna (who 1HKO'd Lloyd on turn 1 with a crit in a recent draft, thank you very much); a trained-up Rath; Guy who is either strength-blessed or using a KIlling Edge; HECTOR; among others. Raven's good, but he's not particularly ... necessary, unless you have no one else better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 bosskillers are seriously the least of your worry in HNM. There aren't many bosses that can't be handled by your overlevelled team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 bosskillers are seriously the least of your worry in HNM. There aren't many bosses that can't be handled by your overlevelled team. I suppose that backs up my point that Raven's boss-killing isn't particularly anything special, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 yeah raven is totally mediocre since its HNM his offence isn't really needed at any point and he's swordlocked for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) I've had Raven a few times in my drafts. The two most memorable times were the semi-SOYO (in which I had a fantastic team consisting of two archers and a nomad) and the support draft. My team for the semi-SOYO was: Rebecca, Rath, Jaffar, Erk, Louise, and Raven My team for the support draft was: Rath, Guy, Karel, Lucius, Raven, Bartre/Karla, Canas, and Renault I found early game pretty annoying in the semi-SOYO draft. Raven wasn't around in early game, which is when Guy makes his biggest contributions for me. Rebecca and Erk were a pain in early game due to being even frailer than Guy. Looking back at my logs for this team, Raven did do stuff, but it seems as if he didn't really stand out aside from having good stats. For the support draft, Raven really got pushed to the background. He was the last of Guy, Bartre, and himself to promote. Guy helped out in early game AND 17x, where Raven struggled to get EXP and level up. I had Rath, Guy, Lucius, blessed Bartre, and Canas to do boss-killing as well. In other words, Raven has overkill offense (on average) and caps strength and speed and has good defenses, but I can't really think of a time when he is "necessary", unless the rest of your team is just subpar. Edited July 22, 2012 by Xin Li Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Raven can be rescue-dropped easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Raven can be rescue-dropped easier. If anyone's being rescue-dropped, it should be Hecotr unless your draft team just has - that - many mounts to spare. How many times are you going to have that many mounts in a draft? And be specific, what bosses are we going to even have to rescue-drop Raven against that others cannot just poke at him and kill him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_ Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 We need a unit good enough to ORKO Kishuna with a Killer crit in 32x. Other than that his bosskilling talents aren't needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 We need a unit good enough to ORKO Kishuna with a Killer crit in 32x. Other than that his bosskilling talents aren't needed. I see. But that isn't really unique to Raven alone. I've seen people kill Kishuna in all sorts of creative ways: Jaffar Silencer, Guy crit, Rath crit, Dart crit, Hector crit, etc. So even ORKOing Kishuna isn't unique to Raven. In fact ... Raven's speed cap of 26 hinders him from doubling Kishuna no matter what, so he HAS to hit that first attack. The swordmasters, the snipers, Lyn, and Rath at least have a speed cap that can exceed Kishuna's capped 25 speed, so they have a better chance of 1RKO. And if it's really a problem, we can just Warp someone else into the room to finish Kishuna off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Very good in Cog Of Destiny if he does have his overkill offence you speak of. Hector crit is very unreliable, considering he just promoted and would have to be supremely blessed. And it's not necessarily unique utlity, but none of the units besides Rath that you've mentioned have unique utility, soooo... Edited July 24, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Very good in Cog Of Destiny if he does have his overkill offence you speak of. Hector crit is very unreliable, considering he just promoted and would have to be supremely blessed. And it's not necessarily unique utlity, but none of the units besides Rath that you've mentioned have unique utility, soooo... To be honest, the only times I've ever had problems in Cog of Destiny was when I didn't have a flier, and that was only because I couldn't shop and get Warp staff while finishing the map as fast as I wanted to. My team's offense is pretty good by that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Looking at swordlocked 1st tier units with high spd. Lyn's great, but her base durability is shit. Guy's middle of the road and relies on str growing. Raven is epic, but comes at a looowww level. So, Lyn could rise a little, but I can't think of a solid argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 You can drop Lyn with unpromoted flyer at Ch. 22 with good chance of ORKOing Eubans with a crit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 The thing about Lyn is that she comes in at chapter 16 with unspectacular base stats. Perhaps it's just my playing style, but I find Lyn warming the bench after several chapters when I get the rest of my team. Her offense is highly dependent on the Mani Katti for those first few levels. If she doesn't get early strength (because she has no problem with speed 99% of the time), then she will struggle to kill stuff with MK and will want to conserve its uses. Her durability is fail and more fail, and so you have to shield her until her dodging is reliable enough or she does become durable enough. I think you have to be get lucky with her, fast, or literally have no one better to depend on in your team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 how is Pent>Erk, if Erk exists longer and can get to warp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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