Chiki Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) BEXP data: Chapter 8: 1510 points > 1383 points Ike from level 5 to level 6 Mia from level 6 to level 7 Boyd from level 5 to level 6 Oscar from level 8 to level 9 Chapter 9: 1433 points > 1370 points Ike from level 6 to level 7 Oscar from level 11 to level 12 Mia from level 7 to level 8 Ilyana from level 6 to level 7 Chapter 10: 1670 points > 251 points Marcia from level 5 to level 18 Chapter 11: 571 points > 68 points Marcia from level 18 to level 1 Ike from level 7 to level 8 Oscar from level 13 to level 14 Ilyana from level 8 to level 9 Kieran from level 12 to level 13 Chapter 12: 560 points > 411 points Kieran from level 13 to level 14 Mist from level 1 to level 2 Ike from level 8 to level 9 Mia from level 10 to level 11 Ilyana from level 9 to level 10 Chapter 13: 611 points > 414 points Ike from level 9 to level 10 Ilyana from level 10 to level 11 Mia from level 11 to level 12 Chapter 14: 514 points > 482 points Ike from level 10 to level 11 Chapter 15: 782 points > 542 points Mia from level 12 to level 14 Ilyana from level 11 to level 1 Mist from level 2 to level 3 Ike from level 11 to level 12 Chapter 16: 1912 points > 1166 points Marcia from level 6 to 7 Ike from level 12 to level 18 Chapter 17: 1566 points > 93 points Ike from level 18 to level 20 Kieran from level 16 to level 1 Oscar from level 16 to level 1 As you can see from the final result of the experiment, Kieran and Oscar only barely managed to reach promotion while Ike barely managed to reach level 20--that was the "deadline," so to speak, for both of them. and they _just_ managed to reach it. At the base of Chapter 17, I was almost completely out of bonus experience. Why is this such a big deal? Because it proves that using Titania is actually detrimental after a certain point in the game. Yes, while I wholeheartedly agree that Titania contributes greatly to earlygame chapters such as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7, there's a great problem in using her after these certain points. In fact, since Kieran, Oscar and Ike barely managed to reach their bare minimum requirements to get the lowest turns possible (maximum efficiency, which in my opinion is what debating should be about), it shows that there isn't much experience to go around. Therefore, a 9 move unit like Titania, who often charges and gets a lot of kills by herself due to her high stats, is only a negative after a certain point in the game. After Chapter 11, Titania herself cuts no turns at all. She has a niche use in Chapter 16 to get the Full Guard, but that is not wholly necessary to finish a maximum efficiency playthrough but it gives you an easier time regardless. There is no need to even use her after Chapter 11 (with the exception of getting the Full Guard) because she cuts no turns at all. Why is this a negative, however? If it's not a positive, then why should it be a negative? Because Titania takes valuable experience from units like Kieran and Oscar. Promoted Kieran and Oscar are necessary to get a 2-turn clear of 17-2. They are the only units who can, together, rescue-take-drop Mordecai who can achieve a 2-turn by Smiting Boots Marcia. Another reason why Kieran and Oscar have to be strong is for Chapter 18; as it is a rout chapter, they have to survive and kill as many enemies as possible in 5-6 turns with a transformed Reyson diamond, along with Marcia and Tanith. Kieran is maybe the only unit who can get the Resolve scroll in 3 turns on Chapter 27, as he can actually kill Generals with his high might Tomahawk, but he still needs a lot of strength to pull it off. Why am I so anal about getting Ike to level 20? There are a lot of chapters where he needs to be really strong (have the highest stats possible) to survive Seize chapters. 21, for example, requires him to have 23 strength in order to KO Generals with a Regal Sword so they don't block his path to Ena. Another chapter is 23, where he needs to be really tank to survive a dozen enemy attacks and end the chapter in 4 turns (3 turns with Sonic Sword Ike, discovered by yours truly). Chapter 26, 28 and Endgame are all extremely important chapters as well, where Ike needs to have the highest stats possible. Another problem with the lack of bonus experience in general is Mist. Mist needs to be at a really high level so her magic can become high enough to use Rescue effectively. As you can see, at the end of chapter 16, I had a level 3 Mist. I worry that I may not even be able to promote her by the time I get Rescue. You may be wondering why I gave some bexp to Mia and Ilyana. First of all, before you think I wasted a lot of resources on them, I really didn't--they got most of that experience from battles, and I only finished those levels off with bonus experience. The amount I used on them is insignificant, maybe around 200-300 bexp in total, which isn't enough to have an effect on anything really. Why did I waste time training them, though? Because Mia and Ilyana make an excellent combo. Ilyana is necessary to get some crucial kills without RNG abuse (Chapter 22, 23, 25, 27 and 28) with siege tomes, and Mia helps that greatly simply by being around: her support gives her a hit bonus. Ilyana needs to have high stats to be able to one-round enemy units with siege tomes in Chapter 25. Mia needs to be trained as well; she's one of the few foot units that have decent enough stats to actually get kills in Chapter 25. As I'm bringing along Mia in every chapter for their support anyway, why shouldn't I give her a bit of bonus experience too, so she doesn't get killed? Mia and Ilyana don't get in Kieran, Oscar and Marcia's ways at all. They simply stay behind and get kills from the enemy units near the back. In my record-breaking playthrough of 119 turns, Mia actually got into the top 5, showing how useful she really is. Hopefully, this will convince people that there isn't as much bonus and combat experience to go around as originally thought, and Titania is a negative after a certain point in the game. Edited July 30, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) I prove your assertion wrong with my own efficiency playthrough which, if you discount all the recruitment/stealth and two positioning mistakes, would hit 117 going into Chapter 27, and plans on hitting 142/127 by endgame. Only around 8 turns less than you. Basically: you probably just suck at using BEXP. PS, one playthrough isnt sufficient enough evidence to disprove that Titania hogs EXP. A lot of your argument with there not being enough BEXP was founded on the fact that you needed around 1900 BEXP or some shit to get Ike 20 Magic to save like 3 turns. Edited July 24, 2012 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Where exactly is 20 magic Ike important for LTC by the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What's with this huge vendetta against Titania? Did she wrong you in a past life? This is starting to go hilariously out of proportion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) What's with this huge vendetta against Titania? Did she wrong you in a past life? This is starting to go hilariously out of proportion. He's under the impression that Titania hurts efficient runs out of anywhere outside of earlygame despite people saying otherwise, even though they know she's not the best overall unit. Edited July 24, 2012 by Little Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) He's under the impression that Titania hurts efficient runs out of anywhere outside of earlygame despite people saying otherwise, even though they know she's not the best overall unit. Oh, I get what he's trying to preach here. What I'm wondering is how this turned into a massive clusterfuck in FE General and now two (?) playlog threads just to prove that Titania is "great but not great and amazing." It's obsessive and weird. Edited July 24, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momo Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Isn't this the game where you are literally given experience to do whatever you want with? Did I walk into another dimension or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 What's with this huge vendetta against Titania? Did she wrong you in a past life? This is starting to go hilariously out of proportion. Oh, I get what he's trying to preach here. What I'm wondering is how this turned into a massive bitchfight in FE General and now two (?) playlog threads just to prove that Titania is "great but not great and amazing." It's obsessive and weird. Ad hominem again. How old are you, 10? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Ad hominem again. How old are you, 10? Why is it the only thing you ever take from my posts is the crude language? Aren't you mature enough to overlook a few poorly-chosen words and actually answer? EDIT: Would you be happier if I went back there and changed the word-I-suspect-offended-you to "clusterfuck"? In fact, I'll go do that pre-emptively. Edited July 24, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 24, 2012 Author Share Posted July 24, 2012 Why is it the only thing you ever take from my posts is the crude language? Aren't you mature enough to overlook a few poorly-chosen words and actually answer? EDIT: Would you be happier if I went back there and changed the word-I-suspect-offended-you to "clusterfuck"? In fact, I'll go do that pre-emptively. Lol.. you're so angry. I don't even know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Lol.. you're so angry. I don't even know why. Yes, how dare I desire answers to my questions. You heard it here from the master, kids, the only possible reason for my crude language is that i mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 how many units do you need to use other than titania anyway because it's probably not that many Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) using Titania after Chapter 11 (with the exception of Chapter 16, because it's impossible to get the Full Guard without her) is a bad idea. What exactly makes using Titania after Chapter 11 a bad idea? Do you really need to field that many other units that she won't even be fielded? Edited July 24, 2012 by arvilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 It's not that it's a bad idea, it's that she's nothing special after chapter 11 anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zkirsche Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What exactly makes using Titania after Chapter 11 a bad idea? Do you really need to field that many other units that she won't even be fielded? He's talking about exp distribution. If Titania is getting kills that Oscar could be getting in the same time frame, that is a negative, as having a highly levelled Oscar is theoretically better than having a highly levelled Titania lategame. Practically though, I don't believe any turns are really lost by using Titania because this game really is that easy and that generous with BEXP. If using Titania doesn't gain us turns after chapter 11 however it might be a good enough reason to remove her from her own tier or even put Marcia/Jill above her, as I'm pretty sure they save turns too and that would be for 2/3 of the game instead of just the first 1/3. On a personal level I'm interested in these results as Aeine has proven himself to be good at finding the LTC strategies (I wouldn't even think of using sonic sword Ike to reduce turncounts). Also, practical evidence for any argument can only be seen as a boon and nothing but. Paperblade mentioned that Titania was considered the best before FE10 was even released, but that doesn't really matter seeing as how far debating standards have evolved over the years, it is entirely possible for any previously established argument to be revoked and I think people are forgetting that. We shouldn't be so stubborn as to reject the possibility for further testing on any topic, regardless of how incredible it may seem. This is especially true on topics, such as this one, which have been cast aside as fact for years without any recent analysis. (Although again, I think it is likely that Titania will be found useful). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What's with this huge vendetta against Titania? Did she wrong you in a past life? This is starting to go hilariously out of proportion. The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. It'd be like if Smogon constantly went on and on about how SB Blaziken destroys OU and how that's awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. Sure, and I agree, and you don't see us rushing around all the forums throwing all the mud we can at Titania (and oddly only Titania) because of some vague and undefined reason. I'm not really questioning his message here, I'm questioning his motives. EDIT: posts are more effective when they use the right words Edited July 24, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frat_tastic Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I don't even think people go around jerking off to Jeigan's like people are claiming. Yes, we say they're awesome in RTU threads and Tier lists, but that's because that is the point of those threads. I don't see people in random threads jizzing about how great Marcus/Seth/Titania are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) The whole "we should worship Marcus/Seth/Titania and the ground they walk on" worship is getting out of hand. They're good, but I wish people would just tone it down. It'd be like if Smogon constantly went on and on about how SB Blaziken destroys OU and how that's awesome. Yeah man! We should worship Sedgar/Wolf and the ground they walk on instead amirite? Edited July 24, 2012 by Tyrant Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yes, strawmen arguments really help your point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 tl;dr of this whole thing: Let's sandbag Titania for no rational reason go home folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 guys why don't we just overlevel Ilyana and then rng so she crits on ever attack that should work see, titania totally sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Yes, strawmen arguments really help your point This isn't even a strawman though . If it was somebody else, it probably would be, but this is OrangeCrush so it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 in a game where you literally get free exp that can be distributed however the fuck you want i'm curious as to how a jeigan 'hogging' exp is bad should i go dig up that post that outlines why seth is so gr9mazing and hogging exp is actually not a bad thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 *sigh* As much as I hate Titania... She doesn't hog any more EXP than another unit. EXP isn't some line-growth where all units receive the exact same amount, it's a curve. Even if Titania robbed the entire team of a level or two in the early-game, with the enemies in mid-game giving more EXP they would quickly catch up. Sure, they might be one or two levels lower, and sure that *might* matter in a non-LTC run, but in a LTC tier the turns she saves in the early-game far outweigh the turns saved by having Oscar, Boyd, or anyone a level or two higher at that point. That being said, I still REALLY dislike her due to the people gushing over her for her early-game performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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