Levin!Arthur too overrated?

[Chiki]

I've always failed to understand why people think Levin!Arthur is the best thing since FE10 Haar in an efficiency playthrough. There are really a few impracticalities when you try to use him:

1. To get the most out of him, you have to give him multiple resources, such as the Bargain, Pursuit, Magic, etc. etc. Rings and so on. Where is Arthur going to find all the money to buy all of them when he needs to repair his Holsety? Where is Levin going to find more than 100k worth of coins for all of those resources? Plenty of characters have almost as much claim to money from thieves as Arthur does; Altenna, Shanan, Aless, Rana and so on all need money from thieves themselves too. I think Levin!Arthur is proof of the fact that people theorize too much and don't rely on practical evidence in order to prove their points, when in reality it's impractical to pull off perfectly.

2. Making the pairing to get him is a little impractical. At 48 turns for just 2 chapters in total, can Levin!Arthur really make up for the turns lost trying to get him, especially considering that Celice is going to do most of the work? See point below.

3. Celice is likely to get a Leg Ring and the Elite Ring in an efficiency playthrough, so he's going to be doing most of the charging and the seizing and so on. Is Levin!Arthur even capable of making much of a difference in an efficiency playthrough?

Let's consider the other playthrough styles:

Ranked: Eh, the most important rank in this playthrough is experience (I've heard about people completing their ranked playthroughs with 100 turns to spare, so I imagine saving turns isn't very crucial, if at all), and Azel!Arthur really has no problem getting to level 30 since he's around for so long. I'm not denying that Levin!Arthur is useful here, but I'm simply saying that he's not really necessary at all.

LTC: Using Levin!Arthur here is basically suicide. First of all, Levin!Arthur takes around 47 or 48 turns to pair, which in itself is absolutely ridiculous for an LTC playthrough (48 turns in 2 chapters is too much). Secondly, with Celice getting the Leg Ring and all other resources, Levin!Arthur won't be doing anything at all. A complete waste and utter idiocy.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Aeine

[MacLovin]

Inb4 Mekkah and Cam.

Also, Levin!Artur doesn't need the pursuit ring, and doesn't want the bargain ring that much.(I think)

And the elite ring can be passed around in the base castle anyways.

But, since pure LTC and ranked aren't my fortes-I'll just watch this bad comedy unfold

[Refa]

I think Mekkah had the right idea on this one.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=25746&st=0&p=1530652entry1530652

Also come on, Levin can easily get the Bargain Ring, and getting all other rings is smooth sailing from there. And taking a bunch of highly contested items has never stopped Celice from being the best thing ever before.

[CT075]

on a full ltc run levin!arthur isn't as much of a complete detriment as you'd think since celice occasionally reaches the point where enemies don't attack him.

granted he's not ideal (someone like aless does the job equally well)

on a regular efficiency run he's decently good but not game-breaking

if you relax a few turns levintiltyu is plausible (not necessarily ideal but plausible), at draft speed it generally costs me only about 4 turns (i think he made up for 3 of them)

only if you go balls out with rescue lachesis (which is not a good idea in and of itself for reasons i'll get to in a moment) is it really an issue, and that only exists by c4 at the earliest

rescue lachesis isn't the best plan because it appears either in chapter 4 (granted it can save a not-inconsiderable amount of turns there) or chapter 5 (you save what, 1 turn?). if you have it in chapter 4, however, it means that you can't pass it down to Lana, which means you don't get it for C7 (where it actually does save a lot of turns); getting it in c5 is fine and dandy but then you have time for levintiltyu

as for resources, you're off by a few counts

1. To get the most out of him, you have to give him multiple resources, such as the Bargain, Pursuit, Magic, etc. etc. Rings and so on. Where is Arthur going to find all the money to buy all of them when he needs to repair his Holsety? Where is Levin going to find more than 100k worth of coins for all of those resources?

levin gets the bargain ring easily and it's not like arthur even needs it; tornado/elwind work for arena clears and grunts

pursuit ring is also not necessary

why the flying fuck would you need the magic ring holsety has 30 might are you mad

and it's not all theory

some of us have actually used him yanno

personally my strats always treated holsety!arthur like aless with 2 range and a ~5 turn detriment

by all means not the end all but not exactly terrible

Edited August 9, 2012 by CT075

[Chiki]

on a regular efficiency run he's decently good but not game-breaking

That's exactly my point.

why the flying fuck would you need the magic ring holsety has 30 might are you mad

With the Bargain Ring, it's not too hard to also purchase the Magic Ring (there's pretty much no demand for this one). Why does someone with 40 Atk want the Magic Ring? The reason is that the Axe Fighters of Sophara have 42 HP/0 Res and the Axe Knights with Schmidt have 42 HP/1 Res. With the Magic Ring, Arthur only needs one use of Holsety to dispose of them.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Aeine

[CT075]

i don't blindly follow mekkah's word kthx

holsety gives him +20 (probably a bit less because holsety's not weightless but it's miniscule and my point is the same) continue activation

that's +20% at being able to instantly murder his foe

i'd rather have him take either the magic ring or the pursuit ring (one or the other, not both). levin's one of the better candidates for the pursuit ring 1st gen anyway (lex is the only person i can think of offhand who'd need it more and he at least has hero weapons to his name).

having actually used him in a lowturn setting i'd have to agree that he's slightly overrated but he's not quite as detrimental as you seem to be implying, he does have some upsides (as I said, he's essentially a second aless)

Edited August 9, 2012 by CT075

[Refa]

Celice is the only person off the top of my head who needs the magic ring early on, and that's to ORKO the axe knights that Arthur would otherwise kill with it. If it weren't for the pressing need for Celice to get to promotion by Ch. 7 I'd say give Arthur the kiils, but yeah. Sometimes Celice can't ORKO the Hand Axe goons even with Magic Ring (read- most of the time), in which case might as well give it to Arthur.

[Integrity]

Most of the time Celice will have the 2 MAG necessary to 1RKO with the Magic Ring. 30% growth and a not-always-0 base, bro.

[Refa]

Most of the time Celice will have the 2 MAG necessary to 1RKO with the Magic Ring. 30% growth and a not-always-0 base, bro.

Should have done my research.

So most of the time, Celice should get it, I guess. He shouldn't have too much need for it after Ch. 6, but then the same applies for Arthur too.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Refa

[General Horace]

celice can actually get pretty cool 1-2 range with a 50 kill light sword

it fades a bit later on but its still enough in most cases

oh also it gives him more evasion on bolting and shit which is even better

Edited August 9, 2012 by General Horace

[Original Alear]

holsety gives him +30 (probably a bit less because holsety's not weightless but it's miniscule and my point is the same) continue activation

that's +30% at being able to instantly murder his foe

Isn't it only +20?

And I don't really know how skill procs work in FE4 (like if a different RN is used for each skill) since I play battles on fast forward and don't really know what happens, but it also gives +10% to critical at 0 kills?

Edited August 9, 2012 by L1049

[CT075]

...yeah fuck me

my memory of specifics is obviously slightly shaky

but still, +15 (yes i checked holsety is 5 wt) is not exactly insignificant

and +10% crit

Edited August 9, 2012 by CT075

[Shin]

Fun fact: Much of the FE4 drafting crowd know that Levin!Arthur isn't a major turn saver. Sure he can make certain parts less of a pain, but loads of people can do his job. Cam pretty much nailed it, the days of Arthur worship are long over.

[Mekkah]

For super duper strict LTC, you probably can't get Levin!Arthur. Anything below that, he's amazing. Maybe second in importance overall to Celice because that guy can seize and "has Ch6" though.

1. To get the most out of him, you have to give him multiple resources, such as the Bargain, Pursuit, Magic, etc. etc. Rings and so on. Where is Arthur going to find all the money to buy all of them when he needs to repair his Holsety? Where is Levin going to find more than 100k worth of coins for all of those resources?

Levin starts near Scrooge McDuck's money bin in Ch2: 10 villages of 5k each plus the Bargain Ring and the Iron Cutter, minus what the brigands eat up. Then he also dominates the arena (with Elwind, no less). He can easily max out his gold, buy something for Arthur to inherit, then continue earning money. There's enough random rings 'n things he can buy on the way which Arthur can sell for the same price as Levin bought it for. There's two Return Rings and a Life Ring that don't have a whole lot of use, and you can have him buy pretty much all your tomes too since Sety comes with his own Lightning, and no one cares about Tinny. And of course 1/20 of what Levin has at the end of gen 1 goes straight to Arthur in gen 2.

Plenty of characters have almost as much claim to money from thieves as Arthur does; Altenna, Shanan, Aless, Rana and so on all need money from thieves themselves too. I think Levin!Arthur is proof of the fact that people theorize too much and don't rely on practical evidence in order to prove their points, when in reality it's impractical to pull off perfectly.

Altenna doesn't exist until Chapter Nine and a Half. Once she does, you'll actually have a pretty difficult time running her out of Gae Bolg uses, but once you do you'll find that she's got enough money from arenas or flier-reachable villages to repair it.

Shannan hardly even needs Balmung for generic enemies until very late in the game, and that includes the arena. Also, since he's a foot unit, he's just not in the thick of things that often.

Aless can run out of if you're really careless about things, but by the time that can even happen he can pick up the Thief Ring.

Also notable is that there's a huge overlap in the enemies you'd use Balmung, Mistolteen, and Holsety against. If Arthur KOs someone like Ishtar with Holsety, Aless's Mistolteen is spared. This applies on a large scale too: if you solo half the map with Arthur, who else really wants money?

And yes, I've done and seen playthroughs based around Arthur (and Celice). They trivialize the game.

One thing worth noting: you do not always have to (in fact, you probably cannot) repair Holsety to its full 50 uses every time. You start with 50 essentially free uses.

Of course, this game is easy to trivialize in several ways, even ranked (as long as you plan properly, you'll overshoot both EXP and turn count by a huge amount).

[Baldrick]

I've always held the opinion that Levin/Tiltyu is inferior to Levin/Fury in (almost) any kind of efficiency, since he can't make up the turns lost pairing them. That said, most of the hype around him has dissipated, so you're kind of preaching to the choir now. In Ranked, the most difficult part would be getting the Exp rank, so he's good but not essential.

[Balcerzak]

on a full ltc run levin!arthur isn't as much of a complete detriment as you'd think since celice occasionally reaches the point where enemies don't attack him.

On a full LTC run (no wasted turns ever) levin!arthur won't be born. Period. Not enough turns in Gen　1.　　The niconico run has only 44 turns from when Silvail is seized until Gen1 is finished. Jealousy is impossible to abuse for Levin X Tiltyu as well.

In fact, most of the children won't be born. I think only Ayra, Aideen, and FuryxLevin instant combo have a chance.

[CT075]

well absolute full minimum ltc levinarthur is obviously never happening

i'd think only like ayra's and aideen's kids would anyway

[Anouleth]

Levin!Arthur isn't too overrated enough, if anything.

[Original Alear]

Levin!Arthur isn't too overrated enough, if anything.

I order SF to OVERRATE this shit on the DOUBLE.

[BBM]

Levin!Arthur is the best!1!1!! He dodges things and doesn't afraid of anything.

[Sasori]

I'm not a low turner, but I believe I expressed the same view in a "most under/overrated" pairing discussion a loooong time ago. To get Arthur out of his 5 move phase he either needs a leg ring till he promotes or elite so he promotes faster. A pursuit ring is less needed since Holsety is still godly. Of course Levin/Arthur is amazing, but I just did't think it deserved the praise it got.

Then again even if it was as godly as everyone said I would still dislike it since i'm a bit of a Azel/Tiltyu fanboy even though I normally stay as far away from shipping as possible.

[Colonel M]

I think Sety is overrated, but that's just me.