Theatre Mafia GAME OVER

[charlie_]

I didnt vote because it was 4am for me when Rapier decided to hammer, otherwise I would have done it in a few hours when I woke up.

[Shinori]

That doesn't explain why you had no other vote the entire phase.

[charlie_]

I said. I didn't want to early hammer to give us more discussion time.

[Aere]

Sorry guys. Actually happy I died, I really have no time to do multiple mafias atm.

[BBM]

##Vote:BBM

I'm suspicious of people who said they found Manix suspicious, but did not vote him strongly, and you are on the top of that list.

You were voting him earlier on, but then you switched, and despite that he was your biggest scum read for a large amount of time, never went back.

Not only that, but you strongly and constantly(and with some questionable and misinterpreted meta backed points) pushed an SB lynch after you got your vote on him while saying you found Manix scummier. Looks to me like you wanted to give the impression of being against Manix, while frantically trying to divert attention off of him onto SB and get an SB lynch.

You even say you don't believe his claim. Yet no vote when SB was not getting lynched at that point. You sound like you know he is scum from his self-vote, yet nothing. You mention not wanting to end the phase early, but I for one don't believe there would have been much more to get out of it.

I didn't switch back to Manix because while I was aware that there needed to be a hammer to lynch Manix, I didn't want to do it with 12 hours left in the phase. Then I left for a few hours, and when I came back, Manix had been hammered already. And I was arguing against SB because just arguing against Manix for the whole phase when he was pretty obvscum and was going to get lynch anyways seemed dumb to me, when I could simultaneously argue against SB and possibly help find another scum, to lynch the next day.

That SB wagon was awfully fast btw, and even if SB is scum like I think he is, Marth's vote at the end seemed like an attempt to be one of the early members on the wagon after SB's lynch and flip. ##Vote: Marth

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

##Unvote, Vote: BBM

[BBM]

##Unvote, Vote: BBM

Any reason for that?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

We're about to watch some awkward sidestepping around Manix and whether BBM really wants to vote him or not.

I didn't really like Manix's vote on Elieson. Elieson justlooked like he was being humorous in a self-deprecating way and he just jumped on it randomly. But Aere sheeping that looks worse IMO, so although I'm wary of Manix...

##Vote: Aere

Most of this post is points against Manix, yet BBM votes Aere.

Ehhhhhh next person ##Unvote, ##Vote: Manix

Although he'll probably just say the same thing that Aere did. And for everyone else, what do you guys think about this?

After a short exchange with Aere where Aere was basically like, "I didn't think it was a joke," BBM caved, and now he actually votes Manix, but you can smell the reluctance floating off your computer screen.

I'm going to return to where I was before the phase ended in such an impromptu manner- ##Vote: Manix

I didn't like your jump on Elieson at all, especially when it was over something so small, and you haven't responded to that point yet.

Suddenly, conviction? Note how in the first quote, BBM says "I don't really like blah blah blah," while in this one he says "I didn't like blah blah blah at all."

Manix immediately replies here:

Okay, hi.

Interpretation is the key here. How I interpret someone's actions (which I explained in this case when I voted) could be completely different to how you interpret their actions. We couldn't know exactly what his (Elieson's) intention behind those actions were at that time. Remember that mafia is a game of deceit and trickery, so how you interpret things is very important.

And okay, I was wrong on Elie. So my interpretation of his actions was wrong. But still, we wouldn't have known that until the flip. :/

(Also; I had a physics prac at that time so I couldn't respond then, soz)

and then:

Sure, interpreting something in a different way is completely possible, but even if you thought what he did was suspicious, it was still a really small reason to jump at him for. I'm still suspicious of you, but something else has caught my eye. Marth hasn't made a single post yet.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth

This is mainly a prodvote.

Where BBM goes down to "I'm still suspicious of you" and gets out of there quickly. Manix's response was really just hand-waving, so I have a hard time believing BBM would close suspicion because of that. Also note how he makes a point of saying he's still suspicious while he did not do that for Aere.

Skip ahead to:

I switched my vote because keeping it on Manix wasn't doing anything. I voted him so that he'd answer my question. He didn't answer it satisfactorily, which is why I still find him suspicious, but we're so far away from a lynch right now that I can easily switch it back later when the purpose of the vote becomes to secure a lynch. But I suppose you're right when you say that my vote's not being useful prodding Marth either. He won't see it until he reads the thread, and he'll certainly make a post then.

So I'm going to switch to Scorri. She has a lot of activity, but she hasn't really done anything. Her initial posts were RVS, and then she made a couple posts just asking other people what they felt without actually saying anything herself. And her first real post, directed at Weapons, doesn't make sense to me. She admits that the game hadn't really started before D1 ended due to modkill, but still finds Weapons suspicious for posting fluff. Like you said, Scorri, there was barely even anything to talk about at that point- your vote looks like a serious vote with crappy RVS reasoning behind it, and I don't really like it.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Scorri

Lol both of your votes were in the same minute.

^Basically this. That first paragraph is just awkward.

Break for lunch.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

My post was at like the exact same minute as Paper's... Shinori even made a post directly after commenting that we posted at nearly the exact same time. >_> And no, my vote against Scorri was based on a reread of the thread, of events mostly before my prodvote against Marth.

I have kind of a null read on SB. From the couple games he's played in, he tends to be inactive and sort of disinterested whether he's town or whether he's scum.

And hey, Rapier's playing. Didn't know that either.

First mention of SB, for the record.

There are more strategies of playing as scum than just active lurking, SB. That's not very good reasoning. For an example of active and attention-drawing scum, look at Prims in Draft Minimafia. Or, for that matter, me in SFM (although that was more due to bad play).

Again for the record for now.

Ok, I think Scorri is looking a bit better, while Manix is looking even worse. I'd put my vote back on him, but I think 4 votes is enough for now. While SB is generally inactive, some of the stuff he's said is starting to seem weird. ##Unvote, ##Vote: SB

And now we get back to Manix. BBM does not join the wagon, despite earlier making a point of saying his votes were useless where they were. So, BBM, what are you trying to accomplish when you vote? Also, that SB vote does not actually have a real reason attached.

This makes no sense because we don't lynch the people who're not contributing the most, we lynch the people who're contributing the least. Otherwise almost everyone would be scum.

This is a fair point (against Prims), but it was also fairly obvious.

You're finding Prims's posts scummy? Literally your only point against him has been low contribution. And, in fact, it was first placed for low contribution during D1 (which never got past RVS in the time that he was there). And when I said "activity" I meant contribution as well. Take SB. He has more posts than Prims, but he's said far less. Except, not a single one of your posts has even MENTIONED SB.

tl dr; You're going after Prims for a shitty reason that is more applicable to people you've never even mentioned.

Except I don't know your alignment and you're not making yourself look townie right now. And if you're looking scummy, why can't I try and push a lynch on you? I'm not pushing it any more than you've been pushing the Prims lynch, after all. SO if he's town he could say this exact same thing of you. If you find me suspicious, give something more than what is basically an OMGUS.

Okay, BBM does actually sound pretty good here.

Ah, okay Iris. Uh, I'm finding SB scummy too, which is why my vote is there right now. I've made my opinions about Manix pretty clear I think, so I didn't really see a reason to vote for him. I find Manix scummier, true, but I don't think voting for him right now will accomplish anything. Of course, one could say that voting for SB isn't accomplishing anything either, so eh...

ATM, my scumreads go Manix > SB > Scorri.

Also, Iris, I don't think that scum!Manix means Prims is town. IIRC, in BCM, Manix argued with Shinori near the beginning (though not nearly to the extent he is going after Prims) and in Xeno, scum!Prims bussed Core pretty thoroughly, right from the start.

But still, the non-vote stands out. Again, what are you trying to do with your votes?

>_> Town Deputy. I'm not sure whether to believe that or not because Deputy Cop can be faked pretty easily by the mafia since they know everybody's alignment anyway. And I also have to question Manix's scan of Paper. He prodded Prims like 4 hours into D2 saying he needed to exist, which implies that he found Prims suspicious even on D1. So why scan Paper and not Prims, who was his strongest scumread? I'll keep my vote off for the moment, but ehhh I don't know.

Here's another attitude shift.

Self-voting is never a townie thing to do Manix and you know it. Even if the next twelve hours end up at your lynch anyway, that's 12 hours of discussion you're trying to get us to skip by trying to get yourself hammered.

Basically what I'm getting from BBM is an inconsistent attempt to bus Manix. I think he doesn't actually vote Manix because at that point it would stick out, even though he's hashed out more than enough reason to vote Manix.

Of course what set this whole thing of was

I didn't switch back to Manix because while I was aware that there needed to be a hammer to lynch Manix, I didn't want to do it with 12 hours left in the phase. Then I left for a few hours, and when I came back, Manix had been hammered already. And I was arguing against SB because just arguing against Manix for the whole phase when he was pretty obvscum and was going to get lynch anyways seemed dumb to me, when I could simultaneously argue against SB and possibly help find another scum, to lynch the next day.

That SB wagon was awfully fast btw, and even if SB is scum like I think he is, Marth's vote at the end seemed like an attempt to be one of the early members on the wagon after SB's lynch and flip. ##Vote: Marth

This is the scummiest non-Manix post of the game. BBM backtracks reasoning for not voting from "it's pointless" to "don't want to end early," which is pretty blatantly stolen from scorri, and then he goes and says that even though SB is scummy, he's voting Marth for really weak/easy reasons.

[BBM]

Okay, I admit that in D2 I switched my vote around a lot, and that was mostly because of the feedback I received after both BCM and Xenoblade where I was told that I tunneled too much whenever I found someone scummy. So I hopped around a lot because I didn't want that to be the case again. I tried to find more people I thought were scummy instead of just Manix, and if this time I was too much on the other end, I'll try to focus down a little more from now on. And my vote on Marth probably wasn't the best reasoning, I agree, but I didn't want to vote SB because he already had 3 votes on him and because that wagon progressed awfully fast, making me think that either someone on there is opportunistically bussing, or that SB is town.

Also, my reasoning for not wanting to end the phase early wasn’t stolen from Scorri at all. I might not have phrased it in the same way as her, but I’m pretty sure I said several times before she did that Manix had enough votes on himself that I didn't need to add another one.

[Deliriyum]

WoMC makes a pretty good case against BBM, and I also don't like SB for not doing much of anything yesterday.

I know I haven't been much better, I'll try to get more into this game.

[BBM]

Wow, I'd totally forgotten Core was even playing until that post, and that's not very good. So I ISOd him to see if he'd said anything of note and he really hasn't. Plus this post seems like last-minute bussing that wasn't even accompanied by a vote for Manix.

Manix's claim reminds me of that time where I fakeclaimed deputy and it worked out for a bit.

It's a pretty easy claim, and I don't believe it.

also there's the questionable choice of target :/

If we lynch him and he turns up town, we have a clear in Paperblade I guess. Regardless of his alignment, he's interacted with quite a few players that could help us find maf.

Sure, I didn't have my vote on him either, but I'd argued against Manix pretty consistently the whole phase- other than one or two one-liners, Core never even mentioned Manix, and when he did, it wasn't even very fleshed out (something about Manix looking paranoid?).

##Unvote, ##Vote: Core

[Deliriyum]

Same reason as you, didn't want an early hammer.

He was my second scumspect behind Aere...and when I became less suspicious of Aere there was already a lot of attention around Manix so frankly I just got lazy and let things run their course.

[Shinori]

That post against core seems weird BBM, I gotta admit.

[Prims]

Ugh, sorry guys, haven't had time to read, but:

- Weapons' BBM case is solid

- Rapier's vote on Manix yesterday screamed bus

##Vote: Rapier

[Bluedoom]

Ok so you see, the problem with going after SB like that, as I pointed out, is that it appears to be feigning contribution. The fact that you said 3 people had a vote on him at one particular point means you were not the first to suspect him, which means that you are more likely to be echoing and feigning contribution. I say this because focusing on SB was a bad idea in my eyes, when you could, like you just said, question other players and find other suspects. Yet you did not, you tunneled on SB instead. Manix doesn't count because you 'thought he was obvscum.'

##Unvote

##Vote: Rapier

Didn't like Rapier's vote too.

[Shinori]

I questioned multiple people, also I was the first person to actually vote for SB originally and point out the case against him. I also started tunneling him because he was still giving responses that don't sound town what-so-ever. And I had asked everyone else questions already for early reactions and out of the ones I got I felt SB was the best to push.

[Bluedoom]

Oops, sorry Shinori I was directing that at BBM. Although I guess I did want to hear from you. Like, what made you unsure of Paper earlier and yet gave you a slightly town read? You didn't explain that.

[Shinori]

His day 1/2 play gave me town reads. But I don't know what to think of the manix claiming a town role on him. Manix has down awkward things with his scumbuddies before. I mentioned that possibility already.

[Paperblade]

##Unvote, ##Vote: Rapier

Like I said earlier, people that unvoted Manix "because he's being lynched anyway" look bad in light of Rule 4.1

[Shinori]

I still think you missread what I said when I said I wasn't going to hammer Manix.

[scorri]

Marth: I don't especially like your vote on SB this phase. It was quite clearly a "Eh, lets hop on the wagon. That means I don't need to explain my vote, right?" Seriously. If you're going to vote, put the effort in of at least giving a sentence why you're voting them. And then you have a post telling BBM how he was echoing points yesterday, and then go and echo Prims when you place a vote on Rapier. :/

Weapons has a nice little case against BBM there. And then BBM's post about Core really struck me as a post attempting to get the focus off of himself.

I agree with the bit about Rapier's vote looking bad, but I'm not sure I buy him being scum. He said that the reason he unvoted was his feelings were messing with his logic. I understand this as I deal with this a lot in mafia games. I honestly don't see scum unvoting and then revoting their own player when it was pretty obvious that Manix was going to get lynched. It would be too likely to get them under suspicion like it's doing to Rapier right now.

##Vote: Marth

Your vote on SB seemed opportunistic, wasn't well explained, and then you're doing the exact same thing you were not liking about BBM last phase. You've also barely contributed anything. You feel to me like scum trying to slip under the radar.

[Bluedoom]

Marth: I don't especially like your vote on SB this phase. It was quite clearly a "Eh, lets hop on the wagon. That means I don't need to explain my vote, right?" Seriously. If you're going to vote, put the effort in of at least giving a sentence why you're voting them. And then you have a post telling BBM how he was echoing points yesterday, and then go and echo Prims when you place a vote on Rapier. :/

##Vote: Marth

Your vote on SB seemed opportunistic, wasn't well explained, and then you're doing the exact same thing you were not liking about BBM last phase. You've also barely contributed anything. You feel to me like scum trying to slip under the radar.

Well do tell me what else do I have to say about SB? Its self-explanatory why I voted SB at that point. I also didn't echo Prims because I actually did state earlier that I found it odd that Rapier unvoted and then hammered later on, read pg 20(i think its that page).

Speaking of which you should address the post that I made during end-phase. I know Manix flipped scum and all but it'd be better if you addressed that anyway.

[Iris]

Still not 100% satisfied with scorri, whom I thought was scummy, but not as much as Manix, but she's been looking better. I was sort of ambivalent on what I felt about BBM, but he's flaky in his votes, if not more so than Serious Bananas, who is Seriously Inactive.

I agree, for the most part, with Weapons' reasoning (but I find it weird because IIRC Weapons was the one who thought BBM's flakiness or whatever was too halfhearted to be bussing Manix); I also dislike post #412, since it's reminiscent on your weird play D2 where you didn't vote for the person you felt was most scummy, and the reasoning for Core isn't good.

##Vote: BBM

[BBM]

A question, Weapons. Why did your opinion of me change from this:

I'm gonna say BBM is less scum since that'd be too much bussing with not enough confidence.

to this:

Basically what I'm getting from BBM is an inconsistent attempt to bus Manix. I think he doesn't actually vote Manix because at that point it would stick out, even though he's hashed out more than enough reason to vote Manix.

None of the posts that I made in your large wall of my quotes were made after that first post of yours, except the very last one that I made this day.

Also, Weapons, you asked me what I'm trying to use my votes for. I'm trying to use them to say "Why shouldn't I be suspicious of you?", not "I want to lynch you." (at least not until very late in the phase).