MajorMajora Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Title says it all. I know some characters like him become terrible, while others level out and become equal to your other units. Which is he and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) He eventually falls behind quite a bit. I wouldn't say he becomes terrible, though. Also: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33640 Edited September 7, 2012 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanfaire Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Well, considering how Awakening is set up he can still be made decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 You may need to grind a little bit, but his base speed and exp rate are some shit so he won't have enough speed by the time of his first promotion let alone any further promotions to really do much. Granted, Sol is good enough late game because he can hit like a truck, but Frederick lacks the EXP rate of other units to really do anything with it. He's designed really well for a Jagen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanfaire Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Shame he wasn't designed to be the Seth of Awakening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I found actually depends on the mode. I found that in Lunatic he's actually better than he is in Normal and Hard because of the larger amount of enemies and them being tougher he's needed more, which gets him more EXP early on, in both of my Lunatic runs for a quite a while he was actually higher levelled than most of the unpromoted characters. He'll Teeter off a little towards the end due to his speed stat(though a Speed double partner can help alot for a while) but Dual Guard+ is a pretty useful ability. Also while he does have other options I found he's actually best off remaining as a Great Knight when you have the opportunity to reclass him in Lunatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Shame he wasn't designed to be the Seth of Awakening. No, that's a good thing. Do you hate balance or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanfaire Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 No, I'm fine with it. It's just a shame he's a Jeigan instead of a Seth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 NO IT'S NOT! "Seths" are just awful game design, period. Of course, I really shouldn't be trying to discuss this with you, Mr. Troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorMajora Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 NO IT'S NOT! "Seths" are just awful game design, period. Of course, I really shouldn't be trying to discuss this with you, Mr. Troll. Not necessarily. They act as a crutch character early on, but even out with every one else. Late game they are just as useful, but not more than anyone else, which is better design (imo) than being a waste of space later on. I feel like, from what I've heard, he might work as a good support partner for faster characters, as he makes them sturdier (they tend to be frail), and his dual guard plus gives the partner extra RNG protection. I think I'll pair him up with tiamo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Not necessarily. They act as a crutch character early on, but even out with every one else. Late game they are just as useful, but not more than anyone else, which is better design (imo) than being a waste of space later on. I feel like, from what I've heard, he might work as a good support partner for faster characters, as he makes them sturdier (they tend to be frail), and his dual guard plus gives the partner extra RNG protection. I think I'll pair him up with tiamo. Dual Guard+ works both ways, in one of my runs I paired him with Tiamo, she can be a pretty good support partner for Frederick since her speed boosts and flying utility makes up for Fredericks lower speed and movement penalties and Fredericks already high durability is slightly improved by Dual Guard+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Arran is still the best designed Jeigan in the series. It's good Fredrick seems to be more like Arran than Seth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanfaire Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Seth would be better designed for Lunatic+. Not necessarily. They act as a crutch character early on, but even out with every one else. Late game they are just as useful, but not more than anyone else, which is better design (imo) than being a waste of space later on. I feel like, from what I've heard, he might work as a good support partner for faster characters, as he makes them sturdier (they tend to be frail), and his dual guard plus gives the partner extra RNG protection. I think I'll pair him up with tiamo. Agreed, glad someone here gets it. It's refreshing to to see not everyone here are jerks that must resort to insults. Edited September 9, 2012 by Fanfaire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Not necessarily. They act as a crutch character early on, but even out with every one else. Late game they are just as useful, but not more than anyone else, which is better design (imo) than being a waste of space later on. How is that better?! If they end up really crap like the old-style Jeigans, then you have a reason not to just have them rock the maps all the time but if they end up just as good (or close to that) like the new-style Jeigans, then the only thing stopping you is the notion of "EXP stealing", which apparently isn't enough because people own the game with characters like Seth and Titania. The neo Jeigans are honestly a blight on recent FEs for those reasons. What you need from a "crutch character" Jeigan is just that, a crutch. A fallback when you absolutely need them that you discard later on. These neo Jeigans don't give you a reason to discard them (or least, not enough of one) so they end up being broken. You know what would be an awesome idea for the "crutch"? Dump the Jeigan archetype altogether and just have a high-bases-and-low-growths unpromoted unit instead of them! Perhaps I ought to make a topic about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) It's refreshing to to see not everyone here are jerks that must resort to insults. well aren't you an angel above all else i suspect that as arvilino has suggested, giving frederick a double partner that confers a large spd boost will adequately fix his spd problem on lower difficulties. Edited September 9, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorMajora Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) How is that better?! If they end up really crap like the old-style Jeigans, then you have a reason not to just have them rock the maps all the time but if they end up just as good (or close to that) like the new-style Jeigans, then the only thing stopping you is the notion of "EXP stealing", which apparently isn't enough because people own the game with characters like Seth and Titania. The neo Jeigans are honestly a blight on recent FEs for those reasons. What you need from a "crutch character" Jeigan is just that, a crutch. A fallback when you absolutely need them that you discard later on. These neo Jeigans don't give you a reason to discard them (or least, not enough of one) so they end up being broken. You know what would be an awesome idea for the "crutch"? Dump the Jeigan archetype altogether and just have a high-bases-and-low-growths unpromoted unit instead of them! Perhaps I ought to make a topic about that. I think my problem with jeigans resolves around another character type that's there. The type that no one likes because they just plain suck. All character should be usable. I want to be able to choose a unique team of characters that's just as good or almost as good as the more mainstream ones. I understand some characters will be better than others, and some end up sucking unintentionally, or maybe there is a joke character. But really, is having those in there really a good thing? Having a Seth as opposed to a jeigan is just like instead of having an amazing character you through away, and in replace having a crap character no one uses, having to throwing away an amazing character and than getting in return another character that is as good as others. And the argument that exp stealing doesn't matter is completely false, from my experience. In Sacred stones (My first FE game), I had more trouble on my Easy mode run with exp stealing than on my Hard mode run without xp stealing. Edited September 9, 2012 by MajorMajora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 i suspect that as arvilino has suggested, giving frederick a double partner that confers a large spd boost will adequately fix his spd problem on lower difficulties. It does. Not so much for the higher difficulties, though. Endgame Swordmasters on Lunatic have 46 Spd, the maximum unmodified Spd cap any class has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Yeah it's true that he'll drop off in use himself towards the end of Lunatic. Depending on his level from about chapter 17-20 he'll reach the point where he's just a bit too slow without being effected by cries and having a double partner for enemies like Swordmasters, Heroes and Valkyries, but for me he generally gets 25-30 level ups across the game usually reaching 30 STR, 30 DEF which makes him a really good double partner for Krom outside the final boss specifically, since together they'll have Dual Attack+, Dual Guard+ and Frederick gives a significant increase to Kroms Str and Defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 NO IT'S NOT! "Seths" are just awful game design, period. Of course, I really shouldn't be trying to discuss this with you, Mr. Troll. Come on, Crash, people aren't trolls for disagreeing with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I think my problem with jeigans resolves around another character type that's there. [cont.] I couldn't comprehend most of this so I'll just deal with the "useless character" issue. First off, my umpromoted Jeigan idea would solve that too. Secondly, generally speaking a useless character does less harm to overall game balance than a broken one would. You maybe want everyone to be usable but avoiding units like Seth is ultimately more important. Come on, Crash, people aren't trolls for disagreeing with you. That's not the reason (In fact, I'm extremely insulted and offended that you jumped to such a conclusion... You really shouldn't do that.), it's because he did it in the past. He stirred shit up and encited massive flamewars AT LEAST twice already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) I think my problem with Jeigans revolves around another character type that's there. The type that no one likes because they just plain suck. You're confusing the Jagen with the Est. There's a bit of a difference between "usefulness" (which the words "good", "great", etc., implies while words like "bad", "crap", etc., implies the lack of the same) and "strength" (which is only a small part of what determines how good a character is). Sure units like Jagen fall behind and ultimately become weaker than the rest of your team come midgame, but strength and growth potential alone do not a good or bad unit make. Especially since such things have to be calculated per level and compared to enemy stats from their joining chapter in order to give you a good idea just how good or bad a unit is, provided some conditions are met. The conditions in question usually involve stuff like as little favoritism as possible.All characters should be usable. I want to be able to choose a unique team of characters that's just as good or almost as good as the more mainstream ones. I understand some characters will be better than others, and some end up sucking unintentionally, or maybe there is a joke character. But really, is having those in there really a good thing? Having a Seth as opposed to a Jeigan is just like instead of having an amazing character you throw away, and in replace having a crap character no one uses, having to throw away an amazing character and than getting in return another character that is as good as others.Again, strength and growth potential alone do not a good or bad unit make. Especially when they're looked at in a vaccum. Units like Jagen are widely considered good on forums such as this one in spite of their strength falling behind other units starting midgame. Conversely, units like Est are often considered bad in spite of them having among the highest growth potential out of the majority of your team. Their availability and their strength when compared to enemies from when they join play a big part in the reasons why.What Crash is getting at is that if you want a game to be balanced, characters like the paladin who starts off strong but ends up weaker than your other units has to be a must. As it would show that overreliance on them can be costly. In some cases, such as FE7 Marcus, Seth, or FE9 Titania, this fails. The biggest reasons why are because the enemies they face are generally weak, and their growth potential ensures that they'll be strong enough to carry you through the entire game. Compare that to Jagen, who starts off strong, but then falls behind due to growth potential. Or Frederick, who, again, starts off good, but whether or not he manages to keep that lead past midgame depends on the difficulty. And while on the topic of unit usability, someone can make a case against units like Est being usable due to how weak they are when they join. Please keep that in mind. And the argument that exp stealing doesn't matter is completely false, from my experience. In Sacred stones (My first FE game), I had more trouble on my Easy mode run with exp stealing than on my Hard mode run without xp stealing. EXP is only good as a means to an end. And you can beat just about any FE without relying on the RNG if you're clever enough. Just saying. Edited September 9, 2012 by Little Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorMajora Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Yeah it's true that he'll drop off in use himself towards the end of Lunatic. Depending on his level from about chapter 17-20 he'll reach the point where he's just a bit too slow without being effected by cries and having a double partner for enemies like Swordmasters, Heroes and Valkyries, but for me he generally gets 25-30 level ups across the game usually reaching 30 STR, 30 DEF which makes him a really good double partner for Krom outside the final boss specifically, since together they'll have Dual Attack+, Dual Guard+ and Frederick gives a significant increase to Kroms Str and Defense. Wait, what. I thought he was promoted: how can he gain more than 19 levels from the beginning of the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordEphidel Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Change seals. http://serenesforest.net/fe13/classchange.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorMajora Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Change seals. http://serenesforest...lasschange.html I didn't know they reset the levels... People are going to abuse the hell out of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I didn't know they reset the levels... People are going to abuse the hell out of these. Only with grinding. Without it, they really just add additional promotion tiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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