Is Frederick any good late game?

[Lord Raven]

They're surprisingly hard to abuse in the way that you're thinking. They're almost necessary too on later difficulties, because you need more levels.

[Anouleth]

The Jeigan vs Seth argument generally comes down to whether you'd rather Fire Emblem be a tough, difficult, challenging strategy game or whether it be a hand-holding RPG where the player can watch waves of superpowered enemies suicide into their godmode units. I see no reason why it can't be both. You could put in cheat codes, or you could put in an easy mode.

[Othin]

The Jeigan vs Seth argument generally comes down to whether you'd rather Fire Emblem be a tough, difficult, challenging strategy game or whether it be a hand-holding RPG where the player can watch waves of superpowered enemies suicide into their godmode units. I see no reason why it can't be both. You could put in cheat codes, or you could put in an easy mode.

Easy modes work as a difficulty level. But having characters stay that effective on the higher difficulty levels just cheapens the higher difficulty level.

But it's not even a matter of overall difficulty, either. Characters need to have defining characteristics to keep character choices relevant. When you have a character like Seth who's the best at just about everything forever, that's just bad game design no matter what.

[MajorMajora]

Easy modes work as a difficulty level. But having characters stay that effective on the higher difficulty levels just cheapens the higher difficulty level.

But it's not even a matter of overall difficulty, either. Characters need to have defining characteristics to keep character choices relevant. When you have a character like Seth who's the best at just about everything forever, that's just bad game design no matter what.

Okay, I should've stated my argument differently. My idea was that the Jeigan should remain usable, but he shouldn't remain your best character. He should be average after earlygame, which it sounds like freddie is, so I'm happy.

They're surprisingly hard to abuse in the way that you're thinking. They're almost necessary too on later difficulties, because you need more levels.

Yeah, I guess, but It can let you have an insane amount of customization. Like, for example, I could urn olivia into a myrmidon and swordmaster, and then class change to a dancer again, essentially becoming a swordmaster who can dance. Though this is actually pretty off topic, we should probably start another thread if we want to continue it.

Edited September 9, 2012 by MajorMajora

[Lord Raven]

Except dancer caps don't allow for good offense anyway. Her durability is some shit as a Dancer too (whereas it's adequate as a Swordmaster) so there's no reason for her to get that customization. It's really difficult to abuse too because your characters have E ranks with new weapons and their EXP gain slows down to some extent too.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Lord Raven

[MajorMajora]

Except dancer caps don't allow for good offense anyway. Her durability is some shit as a Dancer too (whereas it's adequate as a Swordmaster) so there's no reason for her to get that customization. It's really difficult to abuse too because your characters have E ranks with new weapons and their EXP gain slows down to some extent too.

Yeah, I guess. It would be fun, though, right? I guess that's what easy mode is for.

[Othin]

With Astra, Sword Expert, Lightning Speed, and capped stats, she can do plenty of damage, even as a Dancer. Takes a ton of grinding to get, but the results are awesome.

She's part of my elite team on my Normal file, but as a Falcoknight now.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

Okay, I should've stated my argument differently. My idea was that the Jeigan should remain usable, but he shouldn't remain your best character. He should be average after earlygame, which it sounds like freddie is, so I'm happy.

No they shouldn't.

If the Jeigan remains "usable" then that undermines their downside and the whole reason to avoid them!

[Othin]

No they shouldn't.

If the Jeigan remains "usable" then that undermines their downside and the whole reason to avoid them!

"Usable" is a vague term.

They need to be substantially and relevantly weaker than the rest of your team for a noticeable portion of the game. Characters can be worse or better than that threshold and still be considered "usable".

[CrashGordon94]

Yes, substantially and relevantly weaker. So why not just go for flat out unusable? That's VERY substantial and relevant!

[Ein]

Crash, could you please drop this whole Jeigan argument?

[CrashGordon94]

Ein, could you stop trying to undermine discussion for no good reason?

[Othin]

Yes, substantially and relevantly weaker. So why not just go for flat out unusable? That's VERY substantial and relevant!

Because it's fun having usable characters?

You haven't given any reason not to let them be usable.

[arvilino]

Yes, substantially and relevantly weaker. So why not just go for flat out unusable? That's VERY substantial and relevant!

That only works when the difficulty is at it's highest. Jeigan himself is pretty usable throughout the entirity of FE1 and FE11 aslong as it isn't the higher difficulties of FE11.

FE6 Marcus, FE11 H3+ Jeigan and FE12 H1+ Arran are the only ones who'll ever become unusable or close to it at any point, but that only occurs when the enemy stats get high enough that the game approaches the situation where the demand is on the player to use the most ideal team(AKA the best units) for the game and even then these Jeigans are an essential part of the ideal team for atleast the first 1/3 of the game.

For them to be just unusable in general they'd have to start off not a single bit better than your other units(including weapon ranks), while having lower growths.

Edited September 9, 2012 by arvilino

[Dark Sage]

Because it's fun having usable characters?

You haven't given any reason not to let them be usable.

Actually he did provide a reason.

The reason is because he doesn't like it.

[CrashGordon94]

Because it's fun having usable characters?

You haven't given any reason not to let them be usable.

Not in this case.

I have (Sage is lying, of course), making them unusable later on as they wane is a relevant weakness like you suggested. If they're still useful later on then it diminishes the incentive to avoid them, which is necessary to keep them being crutches and not a "Get out of earlygame free" card.

[arvilino]

Not in this case.

I have (Sage is lying, of course), making them unusable later on as they wane is a relevant weakness like you suggested. If they're still useful later on then it diminishes the incentive to avoid them, which is necessary to keep them being crutches and not a "Get out of earlygame free" card.

Why on earth have a character that you're only supposed to avoid using? To punish new players who don't know better?

[Fanfaire]

No they shouldn't.

If the Jeigan remains "usable" then that undermines their downside and the whole reason to avoid them!

That's a really poor argument. No character should suck just for the sake of sucking to fulfill your ego. Seth was broken but pure Jeigan's are just as broken in all the wrong ways. In a game like Awakening where you can grind it up there's no reason to have a true Jeigan since than Fredrick would be absolutely worthless after a bit of grinding on your other characters.

Seems like you're stuck in the old days and keep forgetting that this game doesn't follow the straight forward Chapter method of most FE games. It has a map and skirmishes on top of Class Change Seals, those have to be taken into account for characters. So Fredrick may not be a Seth but he isn't a crappy pure Jeigan either which is a good thing since that character type would be absolutely worthless in a game like Awakening.

[Othin]

Not in this case.

I have (Sage is lying, of course), making them unusable later on as they wane is a relevant weakness like you suggested. If they're still useful later on then it diminishes the incentive to avoid them, which is necessary to keep them being crutches and not a "Get out of earlygame free" card.

And Crash misses the point as always.

-Becomes substantially and noticeably weaker than other characters later in the game, while still remaining usable

-Becomes substantially and noticeably weaker than other characters later in the game, to the point of becoming unusable

Provide an argument for why the second is preferable to the first, when the first already does precisely what you suggest.

[Baldrick]

Why on earth have a character that you're only supposed to avoid using? To punish new players who don't know better?

No, to punish new players who lean on the Jeigan too much. The perfectly designed Jeigan is you best unit for 1/3 of the game, useful for the 2/3, then much weaker than the rest of the party for the last 1/3.

Or just somebody like Eyvel.

@Othin: The first works well in theory, but in practice turns out like FE7 Marcus best-case scenario, Seth worst-case scenario.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Kamekameha

[Fanfaire]

That wouldn't work for a game like Awakening.

[MajorMajora]

No they shouldn't.

If the Jeigan remains "usable" then that undermines their downside and the whole reason to avoid them!

I think we have a difference of opinion of what "balance" is.

I don't care whether or not any one character Is balanced between his strengths at different points of the game, what matters is if your team is balanced. The point of having a crutch character is so that you have a way of getting past difficult situations in the early parts of your game as your characters are still developing strength and deepening their niche. Fast characters are not yet especially fast in contrast with other units, powerhouses are not yet especially strong. A Jeigan is to help possibly frustrating situations as these happen, balancing it out.

However, once midgame comes along, your units are more than capable. Speedsters dodge most attacks, knights can take many hits, and your team is flexible enough to handle most situations with the right strategy. If your Jeigan was still a juggernaut mid and late game, It would break the game, and be unbalanced.

This leaves 2 possibilities: the first would be to make him weak compared to the rest of your team. The other is to level him off with the rest of your units. If you choose to level him out with the average, it doesn't make your team any stronger over all, it simply gives you more flexibility. It would be like adding in another promoted character of a similar strength of your units in the midgame, like adding in saleh in sacred stones. If you make him significantly weaker, it doesn't balance out your team any more than the other choice, its just annoying to those who grew attached to him and people who incorporated his class into their strategy.

[CrashGordon94]

That's a really poor argument. No character should suck just for the sake of sucking to fulfill your ego.

Good thing that's not my reasoning then.

And since the rest of your post is fixated on grinding, ever thought that infinite grinding would make pure Jeigans useful?

And Crash misses the point as always.

-Becomes substantially and noticeably weaker than other characters later in the game, while still remaining usable

-Becomes substantially and noticeably weaker than other characters later in the game, to the point of becoming unusable

Provide an argument for why the second is preferable to the first, when the first already does precisely what you suggest.

I've provided as much reasoning for that as you have for the opposite.

For more, what's the real difference? You can maybe struggle through with the first if you really put your mind to it? Why is that worth toeing a nebulous line of game balance for?

[Florete]

That's not the reason (In fact, I'm extremely insulted and offended that you jumped to such a conclusion... You really shouldn't do that.), it's because he did it in the past. He stirred shit up and encited massive flamewars AT LEAST twice already.

And starting more fights is your solution? If you think he's trolling or starting flame wars, report him. If all you can do is attack him back, don't post. From what I can see in this topic, he said nothing to incite any flame wars and you needlessly attacked him.

[arvilino]

No, to punish new players who lean on the Jeigan too much. The perfectly designed Jeigan is you best unit for 1/3 of the game, useful for the 2/3, then much weaker than the rest of the party for the last 1/3.

Or just somebody like Eyvel.

I know, I mentioned the scenarios that occurs in my previous post. But I'm talking about the proposal in which the Jeigan becomes completly worthless.