Most useful version of the AS system?

[Ema Skye]

I don't really mind the Con=AS formula, but I never really got why the tomes were heavier than normal weapons (FE8!Gleipner weighed 20, and it wasn't even a 3-10 range tome). FE6 got the Con=AS system mostly right, though the Dark tomes were still very heavy).

Str=AS formula makes the most logical sense (if I'm not strong enough to carry this weapon, it's going to slow me down), but as other people said, it really makes weapon weight not matter lategame (though maybe that shows character growth, I dunno).

Spe=AS was a bit weird to me at first, partially due to weapons weighing nothing. Haven't really played enough FE12 to get a solid opinion on it though.

I guess I find the Con=AS system the most useful, but only if one could grow their con in level ups (ala FE5). Otherwise it would be Str=AS.

[dondon151]

Str=AS formula makes the most logical sense (if I'm not strong enough to carry this weapon, it's going to slow me down), but as other people said, it really makes weapon weight not matter lategame (though maybe that shows character growth, I dunno).

one can be strong yet have more difficulty wielding a heavy weapon than one who's not as strong but just has bigger stature

it has to do with moments and torque when swinging weapons. the implications of con -> AS make more sense than those of str -> AS...

[SgtSmilies]

You should make Bld = AS a different option, since it's much superior to Con.

[Ein]

Uh... Maybe every 2 or 3 points in STR reduce weight of a weapon by 1 or 2?

[FEAnon]

The only thing that comes to mind with the Con = AS thing is probably the fact that Steel Lances are really really heavy and considering the amount of enemies that have Steels in the GBA it tends to make them into jokes, especially enemy Pegasi.

So I guess if they made weapons slightly lighter and tomes a bit heavier than their FE6 counterparts where the heaviest tome is about 15 Wt and that's in the case of the Siege tomes, then it's pretty much fine. Since I don't really see any weapon weighing more than 16Wt with the Con = AS formula.

[Emeraldfox]

I don't mind all three to be honest.

[BrightBow]

I'm not really fond of the Str system. It means that units who already hit hard, can also double and use stronger weapons without penalty. That seems like a fundamentally broken concept for me.

The Con system pretty much gave all female units an universal penalty with nothing to even things out.

Honestly, I think it is neither. I'd say the got it right the first time.

By having weapons always reduce speed, it always requires to put some thought into using the stronger weapons.

Obviously the system was horrible broken in FE4 and it really shouldn't have been in Gaiden since you can only equip one item anyway. But it worked well in FE1 and Fe3.

[Anouleth]

You should make Bld = AS a different option, since it's much superior to Con.

Basing it off Build gives the same problem as Strength, since after a certain point weapon weight just doesn't matter, and the same problem as CON in that certain characters just get horribly screwed over. I see Build as being the worst of both.

[Rehab]

I always thought it was weird that weapon skill usually didn't affect AS directly. If I could have it any way I wanted, constitution would have the biggest effect, strength would give a less direct, probably modified bonus, and as weapon skill increased, one could either choose for a character to get bonuses to MT or AS when using the weapon type. Maybe units with a higher skill growth could also have a higher weapon skill growth rate, to differentiate myrmidons and mercenaries a little.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Rehab

[Terrador]

Non-weight-mitigation makes more sense to me. And tomes need to have weight that ALWAYS increases with power. Because incantation length is what really matters, not how heavy the effing book is.

[CT075]

we should have lck = AS

maybe then it'd be useful

[SgtSmilies]

Basing it off Build gives the same problem as Strength, since after a certain point weapon weight just doesn't matter, and the same problem as CON in that certain characters just get horribly screwed over. I see Build as being the worst of both.

Build has like 5% for every unit on average. The only people even getting NEAR the point where it wouldn't matter are axe users, and those weigh a ton.

Edit: Also, if someone has low build, the Neir scroll exists.

Edited November 13, 2012 by SgtSmilies

[dondon151]

Build has like 5% for every unit on average. The only people even getting NEAR the point where it wouldn't matter are axe users, and those weigh a ton.

Edit: Also, if someone has low build, the Neir scroll exists.

bld growth averages 13.82% if you remove marty as an outlier. that's much lower than most other stats, but still pretty substantial, and it still creates the sort of problem that anouleth was talking about. units with 2-10% bld growth will rarely see bld increases (and those units tend to start out with low bld in the first place), while units with 25-35% bld growth will see enough bld increases to eventually nullify AS loss from even heavy weapons.

honestly the worst part about bld growth is that it screws around with rescuing. that's a no-no in my book.

Edited November 13, 2012 by dondon151

[Original Alear]

AS is just bad. Instead, characters who are initiating an attack should attack twice. In the event of round continuations from skills, arena fights, etc, the ratio should reduce to 1:1. (maybe it does for charge, I don't really remember)

I think it would be better if the str thing was the case, but didn't completely trivialize weapon weight for melee units late game...I think.

Maybe there could be separate penalties for different stat gaps. Like, str VS weight determining a different kind of penalty than con vs weight. Obviously that would probably involve a fairly major overhaul in terms of trying to thing of something else worth penalizing that works well in the game. I'm mostly just shooting this off, rather than backing it with anything.

To be fair, though, the Str system didn't affect mages much in RD, with one exception, considering the heaviest tomes were the siege tomes, which you wouldn't want to be caught dead having equipped if they got attacked anyhow.

I think Rhys would have been a bit better off offensively (not that that would've been that useful) and defensively if he more frequently grew str, since his spd is so abysmally low. Of course, there isn't a whole lot of powerful light magic, so you can just keep light magic off him if it would help him avoid being doubled.

We should have lck = AS

maybe then it'd be useful

AS will never be useful.

honestly the worst part about bld growth is that it screws around with rescuing. that's a no-no in my book.

I just hate not being able to rescue mounted units while they're mounted.

Well I think you can't anyway.

Edited November 13, 2012 by L1049

[Constable Reggie]

I personally liked Fe5's system the most. I thought it was pretty cool that tomes completely bypassed build while the physical version is pretty much a mix between con->as and str->as.

[SgtSmilies]

I just hate not being able to rescue mounted units while they're mounted.

You're trying to protect someone on a big ass horse from a bunch of enemies in the heat of combat.

Are you carrying them? How does that work?

[Rehab]

Slap the reins out of their hands and drag them around

[Thor Odinson]

Both Str->AS and Con->AS has problems that I feel would be lessened if we just divided them with a certain constant and then added or something that way it doesn't screw around with rescuing, and it gives a chance for units to get better at as without going all crazy like with bld depending on the constant of division, since there's a cap on str and if you divide that with a big enough number it shouldn't increase too much but the really heavy weapons won't be as much of an ass if you're higher on str

And I mean, if two people are of similar size, the stronger one is gonna have an easier time using a heavier weapon so it should be somewhat factored in just not the sole factor

but then people complain about simple division :/

[Shadow Mir]

Both Str->AS and Con->AS has problems that I feel would be lessened if we just divided them with a certain constant and then added or something that way it doesn't screw around with rescuing, and it gives a chance for units to get better at as without going all crazy like with bld depending on the constant of division, since there's a cap on str and if you divide that with a big enough number it shouldn't increase too much but the really heavy weapons won't be as much of an ass if you're higher on str

And I mean, if two people are of similar size, the stronger one is gonna have an easier time using a heavier weapon so it should be somewhat factored in just not the sole factor

but then people complain about simple division :/

TBH, that's why I'm thinking the AS formula used in FE12 and Awakening might be for the best - the other two AS formulas screwed over certain units (the Con system in particular even screwed over the enemies, with how disproportionately common Steel weapons are, in addition to being horribly unbalanced in general). Though you also seem to have a good idea.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Rehab]

Not that I think what you said is wrong in any way, but I think it's okay for the AS system to penalize some enemies, as long as it cuts both ways.

[BrightBow]

Personally I would say that the actual reason the Con system screwed those Pegasus Knights over so badly, is because of how universally low the Con of females is. It normally just doesn't show this obviously, because Pegasus Knights are the only female units in the Ai's arsenal.

Player characters avoid this because of their insane high speed base. In FE6 Pegasus Knights have only 5 base speed. The exact same as Cavaliers.

Yet, Thany comes with a whooping 12 Spd on level 1. On the other hand, the level 1 Cavaliers join with 6 and 8 speed respectively.

This high bases allow Thany to have essentially the same agility as those two, despite having 5 Con less.

But enemies lack this luxury. They have entirely normal bases. But as female units, the Pegasus Knights also have 4 points less Con then Cavaliers, so they are way slower.

Anyway, I'm definitely against getting rid of penalties of heavier weapons like in FE12.

Why would you even use weaker weapons under those circumstances?

Edited November 13, 2012 by BrightBow

[Shadow Mir]

Personally I would say that the actual reason the Con system screwed those Pegasus Knights over so badly, is because of how universally low the Con of females is. It normally just doesn't show this obviously, because Pegasus Knights are the only female units in the Ai's arsenal.

Player characters avoid this because of their insane high speed base. In FE6 Pegasus Knights have only 5 base speed. The exact same as Cavaliers.

Yet, Thany comes with a whooping 12 Spd on level 1. On the other hand, the level 1 Cavaliers join with 6 and 8 speed respectively.

This high bases allow Thany to have essentially the same agility as those two, despite having 5 Con less.

But enemies lack this luxury. They have entirely normal bases. But as female units, the Pegasus Knights also have 4 points less Con then Cavaliers, so they are way slower.

Anyway, I'm definitely against getting rid of penalties of heavier weapons like in FE12.

Why would you even use weaker weapons under those circumstances?

Not that I disagree (in fact, I think you you definitely have a very good point), but as I see it, the gap between Steel and Silver (namely, the fact that even in lategame, steel weapons are still used quite a bit by mooks, whereas they hardly use silver) would need to be addressed somehow. That being said, I think the older games' AS system wasn't all that bad (Genealogy of the Awful Balance notwithstanding). As for the point on females, you hit the nail right on the head; I also agree with the point where the con system shafted female units in general.

[Anouleth]

Anyway, I'm definitely against getting rid of penalties of heavier weapons like in FE12.

Why would you even use weaker weapons under those circumstances?

Every RPG in the world has weapon upgrades that actually improve weapons. Why is that a bad thing?

[BrightBow]

Every RPG in the world has weapon upgrades that actually improve weapons. Why is that a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing. But I like the basic distinction between the weapons. It gives you a reason to put a bit thought into your weapon selection.

Are you going to use the weak Iron weapons? Or do you trade in avoid in exchange for being able to hit harder by using Steel?

While loosing weapon weight is definitely not such a big deal, I would say it's a bit of a loss nonetheless.

Edited November 13, 2012 by BrightBow

[Integrity]

Anyway, I'm definitely against getting rid of penalties of heavier weapons like in FE12.

Why would you even use weaker weapons under those circumstances?

Maybe 'cause of the other ways that they can be balanced other than weight like, say, hit vs. might, which Iron and Steel are already partially balanced around? Or, say, cost/uses, which they're also already balanced around?

I'm in favor of weapon weight, but this is sort of iffy logic.