Hardest difficulty in any FE Game (Poll)?

[Constable Reggie]

Fair enough, but it can only be plausibly done with Olwen/Eyrios and takes two turns to kill, lest you risk Lara getting easily killed. But whatever, if you can find all the specific ways to defeat Reinhardt (which still isn't surefire considering his monstrous avoid), great. Dullahan from Golden Sun can killed in 1 turn if done in a very specific way, why isn't he considered extremely easy?

edit: I don't consider the hit/avoid part of the enemy stats because it can easily be taken away from all enemies by your actions. The general enemies by themselves aren't strong, and they still won't be strong if you decide to do something about it. I can't shave off 30 hit/avoid from every enemy in Fe6.

And yeah, it is opinion. I personally don't feel satisfied when winning a chapter by abusing the chapter's scenarios. I doubt IS intended for you to warp someone next to Cyas to attack him then rewarp him back (otherwise they wouldn't have had the 40 turn limit). Likewise, I doubt they intended for people to simply warpskip the harder chapters because they're hard. Sure, it may temporarily feel great finding a way to "cheat" through an extremely difficult situation with ease at first, but honestly tell me: Do you guys feel like you've legitimately beaten the game if you simply warpskip several chapters? Do you find more satisfaction knowing that instead of playing through the chapters, you simply bypassed them? Because I don't. It's the same reason why people aren't too enthusiastic about using Cid in FFT. He's given to you as a tool free of charge: why not abuse him to the fullest?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Constable Reggie

[BrightBow]

And yeah, it is opinion. I personally don't feel satisfied when winning a chapter by abusing the chapter's scenarios. I doubt IS intended for you to warp someone next to Cyas to attack him then rewarp him back (otherwise they wouldn't have had the 40 turn limit).

Actually, I'm pretty sure IS intended it to be beat just like this. You just so happen to get a Warp Staff from one of the houses. Besides, you get informed in advance that Coen doesn't want Cyas at the battlefield. I would say, IS definitely wants you to take care of Cyas before moving past the bridge.

[Constable Reggie]

I doubt that Coen telling Cyas to not be on the field is indicative of telling you to warp next to him (and consequently every other dangerous enemy on the map) and rewarping back. The last Cyas encounter told you to wait him out, which is also what you can do in 22. And getting a warp staff so late in the game, that happens to be on Chapter 22, thus meaning to "abuse Cyas' AI" is stupid reasoning. It could just as well be used to warp someone to normally extremely dangerous/unreachable arches+bishops. No Fire Emblem game ever, so late in the game, gives you a tool and vaguely says "use it in this very specific and unorthodox way". Even certain complicated things like how to beat Julius or Ashera is explicitly beaten over your head on what to do.

edit: I can't believe this whole debate started from just "Reinhardt is a huge pain in the ass to fight". Are you guys saying that since Reinhardt is able to be beaten in very situational ways (any non max magic + mag up or awareness unit will IMMEDIATELY die, and if you don't take advanced steps to eliminate Cyas/Arches, they will also probably die) that he's easy?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Constable Reggie

[Strunk]

Isn't this topic meant to discuss which game is the hardest overall, and not how easy or hard one specific boss is?

I'm no specialist, but I think we've gone a bit off topic.

[Scarlet]

(which still isn't surefire considering his monstrous avoid)

Actually, when using Dime Thunder, Reinhardt has a grand total of 2 AS, which together with his 18 luck results in a pretty wimpy 22 Avo before leadership stars are factored in. That's 49 Avo without Cyas around, and 79 if he's still there. If you get rid of Cyas and use a Wind tome (which even gets WTA, further cutting down Reinhardt's Avo to 44), reliably hitting him is no problem at all.

Dullahan from Golden Sun can killed in 1 turn if done in a very specific way, why isn't he considered extremely easy?

You can't exactly compare Golden Sun and Fire Emblem with each other, they're way too different. Your possibilities and the general flow of the battles are completely different.

Besides, Dullahan is difficult mainly for his djinn storm ability, as this makes it nigh impossible to overcome him with raw stats. (Which is a bit of a problem as combat in Golden Sun and many other JRPGs is strongly dependent on raw stats.)

I don't consider the hit/avoid part of the enemy stats because it can easily be taken away from all enemies by your actions.

You do, because I certainly wouldn't call 22 Avo "monstrous".

Likewise, I doubt they intended for people to simply warpskip the harder chapters because they're hard.

They did account for it, though, as - like Anouleth mentioned before - SSS-ranking the game is physically impossible without abusing the heck outta Warp.

Do you guys feel like you've legitimately beaten the game if you simply warpskip several chapters?

The game offers me the (limited, if I may add) resources to do so, so I see no reason not to make use of them. I guess that means "yes".

I have played chapter 22 once without using Warp, just to experience what it has to offer, but I'll gladly warp-skip it any other time.

Are you guys saying that since Reinhardt is able to be beaten in very situational ways (any non max magic + mag up or awareness unit will IMMEDIATELY die, and if you don't take advanced steps to eliminate Cyas/Arches, they will also probably die) that he's easy?

@Bolded: That's greatly exaggerated. It's not like Reinhardt has a 100% proc chance on Adept and Duel (in fact, if he manages to proc Duel with his measly 2 AS, you're absolutely doing it wrong), or that all of your units will die to two measly hits of Dime Thunder. There's an existent chance of death for units that aren't suited to deal with him, but it's not absolute, and this is no different from many other situations. Reinhardt isn't the unstoppable instant death machine you're making him out to be - he can be beaten with the proper units and preparations, just like any other boss and any other situation in the game.

That doesn't mean that Reinhardt is "easy" (although, as demonstrated, I don't find him overly difficult to deal with, and you don't necessarily need to deal with him at all), but he doesn't even come close to being as hard as anything FE12 Lunatic throws at you.

Isn't this topic meant to discuss which game is the hardest overall, and not how easy or hard one specific boss is?

I'm no specialist, but I think we've gone a bit off topic.

Haha, that may be true. Sorry for that.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Scarlet

[Strunk]

Haha, that may be true. Sorry for that.

It doesn't bother me, personally, but if it continues, certain... others... may end up getting involved.

It would be best for all of us if that didn't come to pass.

[Anouleth]

And yeah, it is opinion. I personally don't feel satisfied when winning a chapter by abusing the chapter's scenarios. I doubt IS intended for you to warp someone next to Cyas to attack him then rewarp him back (otherwise they wouldn't have had the 40 turn limit). Likewise, I doubt they intended for people to simply warpskip the harder chapters because they're hard. Sure, it may temporarily feel great finding a way to "cheat" through an extremely difficult situation with ease at first, but honestly tell me: Do you guys feel like you've legitimately beaten the game if you simply warpskip several chapters? Do you find more satisfaction knowing that instead of playing through the chapters, you simply bypassed them? Because I don't. It's the same reason why people aren't too enthusiastic about using Cid in FFT. He's given to you as a tool free of charge: why not abuse him to the fullest?

And so what? Why should we care about what IntSys intended us to do? Even if IntSys intended Chapter 22 to be very hard, that doesn't make it so. The best of intentions mean nothing. And since Warpskipping Chapter 22 is necessary to SSS rank the game, I would say that yes, IS did know about the loophole, and they probably did expect players to use it, and they probably expected some players to refuse to use it because they wanted the challenge! Which I suppose, is one of the nice things about FE, that you can play it in the way you like, and not on the rails set by the game developer.

[riariadne]

Do you guys feel like you've legitimately beaten the game if you simply warpskip several chapters? Do you find more satisfaction knowing that instead of playing through the chapters, you simply bypassed them?

Yes. You can beat the game how you want. That doesn't make the way I beat it less valid, which is what you're saying (don't even try and be all "I'm not doing this", what the hell else do you mean "bypassed them"). I didn't warpskip every FE5 chapter, but I looked at Chapter 22 and I was over it pretty quick. FE13 Lunatic/Lunatic+ doesn't even give you the easy button of skipping it, nor does FE12 H3 or H4. I haven't played FE13 yet (I did vote for it because I've seen the stats and I think I can make my judgment from those) but I have played FE12 H3 and I found it a lot harder than FE5. You can complain about how I took the easy way out with warp or something, but if it's an option being given to me I'll take it. It's just as legitimate as playing any other way. FE8 is harder than normal if I force myself to only use slim weapons and kill off the better half of the cast, but I don't do that because I don't want to limit myself in ways I consider to be very silly!

It's the same reason why people aren't too enthusiastic about using Cid in FFT. He's given to you as a tool free of charge: why not abuse him to the fullest?

Well, I do. Edited December 11, 2012 by Strider

[dondon151]

Sure, it may temporarily feel great finding a way to "cheat" through an extremely difficult situation with ease at first, but honestly tell me: Do you guys feel like you've legitimately beaten the game if you simply warpskip several chapters? Do you find more satisfaction knowing that instead of playing through the chapters, you simply bypassed them?

is this a rhetorical question

because the answer is a resounding "yes"

i beat the chapter in the most elegant way possible and made it my bitch

what else could i possibly ask for

[Constable Reggie]

Is using the warp whistle more satisfying to you than going through the levels in Smb3?

If I ask you if you beat Fe5, would you say "yes", or "yes, but I warpskipped several of the later chapters"?

Edited December 11, 2012 by Constable Reggie

[Othin]

I'm calling BS on this, those mechanics are not complex at all.

Oh? Do explain how you managed to beat, say, Ch20 on Lunatic without getting really crafty with cycling characters through various Double formations while simultaneously fighting off enemies far stronger than your own team.

You've completed FE13 Lunatic, right? You wouldn't be foolish enough to make that claim without having done so?

[riariadne]

Is using the warp whistle more satisfying to you than going through the levels in Smb3?

If I ask you if you beat Fe5, would you say "yes", or "yes, but I warpskipped several of the later chapters"?

I don't like some of the levels in SMB3, why not skip to the ones I like more?

I would say yes. If I beat it I beat it. The ends justify the means.

[Othin]

There's fun in building your way up slowly and there's fun in just flying straight to the seventh gate. There's no real harm in adding a variety of options for people who might enjoy playing the game different ways, as long as they remain rewarding. The problem is, different people have different ideas of what challenges will stay exciting when they know there's an easier way out. So there's no universal way to draw the line.

[dondon151]

Is using the warp whistle more satisfying to you than going through the levels in Smb3?

If I ask you if you beat Fe5, would you say "yes", or "yes, but I warpskipped several of the later chapters"?

why are you asking questions that i already answered

i SSS ranked FE5 on 0% growths in 173 turns. no way am i dissatisfied with that.

[Anouleth]

Is using the warp whistle more satisfying to you than going through the levels in Smb3?

The question is not which is most satisfying. The question is, whether the game is difficult.

[Constable Reggie]

There's fun in building your way up slowly and there's fun in just flying straight to the seventh gate. There's no real harm in adding a variety of options for people who might enjoy playing the game different ways, as long as they remain rewarding. The problem is, different people have different ideas of what challenges will stay exciting when they know there's an easier way out. So there's no universal way to draw the line.

I guess so. My personal "enjoyment" of a game comes from going through the experience intended, not necessarily simply getting to the end (Spec Ops: the Line would have been shit if you didn't go through all the steps the developers intended you to do). Difficulty doesn't mean anything if there's no satisfaction or payoff from beating it. This is why I probably consider fighting Reinhardt the "right" way to beat the chapter, instead of warping past him or abusing the staves to a ridiculous point. One personally gives much more satisfaction for me than the other. There's nothing wrong with warpskipping or abusing Cid for other people, which is fine. It's just not something I can see myself really doing that much.

However, does this justify the fact that Reinhardt isn't a very difficult enemy because he can simply be skipped? Because to me, that's like saying that Dullahan isn't a hard enemy because he can also essentially be defeated in a surefire way.

edit: By the way, I don't believe that Fe5 being difficult in the ways it is makes it more difficult than Fe12/13. I simply said that Reinhardt's map alone was probably the hardest chapter in all of Fire Emblem for me when I first started it, which I enjoyed because it wasn't the typical difficulty padding way of "buff enemy stats to ridiculous levels and simply overcome those numbers with your own numbers".

Edited December 12, 2012 by Constable Reggie

[dondon151]

I guess so. My personal "enjoyment" of a game comes from going through the experience intended, not necessarily simply getting to the end.

you don't know what is the "experience intended"

as anouleth stated earlier, if SSS ranking FE5 required a slew of 1-3 turn clears that were impossible without staves, then certainly the argument can be made that these insanely difficult maps were "intended" to be skipped. so your argument doesn't hold water.

Difficulty doesn't mean anything if there's no satisfaction or payoff from beating it. This is why I probably consider fighting Reinhardt the "right" way to beat the chapter, instead of warping past him or abusing the staves to a ridiculous point. One personally gives much more satisfaction for me than the other. There's nothing wrong with warpskipping or abusing Cid for other people, which is fine. It's just not something I can see myself really doing that much.

i'm just going to point out that figuring out how to 3 turn chapter 24x with all of my staves flying around was easily the most challenging logistical task that i've ever had to figure out in fire emblem. warpskipping in the best way possible is not the cakewalk that you make it out to be. even FE11 warpskipping entailed hours of planning and running through scenarios in my head (and actually i'm still working on optimizing it, which has hit a slight snag since i kind of don't know how to do chapter 20).

However, does this justify the fact that Reinhardt isn't a very difficult enemy because he can simply be skipped? Because to me, that's like saying that Dullahan isn't a hard enemy because he can also essentially be defeated in a surefire way.

most strategy games are easy if the player knows exactly what to do.

Edited December 12, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[CT075]

if the only way you can beat fire emblem enemies (ie the enemies in the game that is built around beating enemies via tactics) is by having your own monstrous numbers then you're doing it wrong

i still fail to see how beating reinhardt via superior tactics (which is what i'm far more willing to believe that IS wanted us to do, regardless of whether that makes a difference) is considered "skipping" him

[Thor Odinson]

Why would IS put a warp staff in and don't want you to use it

It's your choice to play how you like and how you feel fulfilling but your idea of fulfilling is not the same as someone else's

If you want to take the hard way because you like it better more power to you it doesn't change the fact that there's an easier way of doing things and maybe to a warpskipper finding the easiest and shortest possible route is far more fulfilling than killing things

Kinda like doing math really

There are equations that sometimes look like a giant mess of things and some people just muscle through but sometimes there's actually several shortcuts of doing things that make it incredibly simple and it's up to the person doing the problem whether or not they want to do it that way but if they did it right it should yield the same answer

Also more on topic, never played FE13 Lunatic since I kinda don't own a 3ds, but FE12 L/L+ makes H5 look like Easy Mode. It's not terrible, though, if you know the AI and how to position things, and the majority of it is very strategy-based and not very luck based at all (at least in Lunatic, haven't done L+ and will do when I get more free time), but from what I've read about FE13's Lunatic, those enemy skills are random positioned? It just sounds a lot more bullshitty and more luck-based and thus more annoying to deal with, but I won't make a full judgement until (if ever) I actually play FE13.

FE5 is challenging if you do it blind, but otherwise pretty easy.

[Parrhesia]

It's eminently possible that FE5, which is all about fucking you over by putting your army at a massive disadvantage, would intend to have a map where the safest option is to just blow out all the stops and BYPASS THE UNSTOPPABLE HORDES WITH STRATEGY.

I like FE5 in theory. Then I play it. Things go downhill due to my lack of caution wrt ambush spawning and enemy siege.

[Othin]

FE13 Lunatic skills are, for the most part, randomly distributed, but they're usually not hugely game-changing. The big one is Counter, for obvious reasons, but while that can require some substantial strategy changes, it shouldn't ever keep you from completing a chapter as long as you keep it in mind.

Lunatic+ is somewhat more hectic and can require fundamentally different strategies depending on the skills. Having played through Ch9, I think it worked well overall with most chapters remaining fair regardless of the configuration, the only exception being Ch7. Granted, I found the later Lunatic chapters much harder than the earlier ones, so my stance on this may not stay constant throughout the game if I get back to it.

[darkkfan]

A lot of valid points have been made for each game, so many that I haven't even been commenting on them. But I updated the poll at least; I'm not sure if I did it correctly but feel free to tell me if I should change anything. The one thing that seems indisputable to me is that both Fe12 and Fe13 are harder than Fe11, and I am assuming that the two people who voted for that haven't played the other two games on their hardest difficulties. But I may be wrong, so if one of them wants to defend their choice, I encourage them to do so.

Aside from that, I think this topic is generating some very interesting points and I don't mind if it gets side-tracked a little as long as it is still trying to prove that one of the games is the most difficult. Keep it up, and I regret that I haven't had a chance to comment earlier.

Edited December 13, 2012 by starfirelord

[General Banzai]

There's fun in building your way up slowly and there's fun in just flying straight to the seventh gate.

Hmmm

Anyways I dunno about FE12 and 13 since I haven't played either, but could we as respectable forum-going adults agree that Thracia is more difficult than FE11 H5 either way you slice it? If you warp skip or not, you're gonna have an easier time with FESD than you would ever have with Thracia.