Localized Names

[Sock]

Yeah, I know. :x Much too analytical. I'm weird.

Name changes bother me. I'm pretty sure it came about as a mutation of hating getting my first and last name butchered in spelling and pronunciation. It's like those childhood traumas people have. I'm scared of dogs because of being bitten by a few when I was little. I was just minding my own business... One of the instances, I unknowingly scared the dog when I was walking somewhere. Still traumatizing, though.

I really also want to know what Cherche means. After all, she's my choice for waifu.

Cherche is French, it means "looking for".

It's pronounced like "share" followed by sheh

edit: Oh gosh, I just did that. -.-; I WAS GOING TO MOVE IT INTO THE OTHER POST, WHY DID I HIT ADD REPLY?! -smacks self-

Edited January 11, 2013 by Integrity

[Tharne]

I really also want to know what Cherche means. After all, she's my choice for waifu.

English : To look for -> I look for ...

French : Chercher -> Je cherche ... /ʃɛʁʃ/

Edited January 11, 2013 by Tharne

[Diortem]

Cherche is French, it means "looking for".

It's pronounced like "share" followed by sheh

edit: Oh gosh, I just did that. -.-; I WAS GOING TO MOVE IT INTO THE OTHER POST, WHY DID I HIT ADD REPLY?! -smacks self-

Oh, I see. Also, that pronounciation sounds quite similar to Serge. Clever, NOA.

Also, haha

[Soledai]

I was so hopelessly confused about Cherche, but I see now, 'share-sheh' I have to do a lot of mouth work to pronounce that and makes me sad

And about the Nn thing... I predict Nini, Nani, or even Nana... or they'll pull a complete turn around and go with something like this:

Jelanda... jela...jelan.........Angela, yeah that's it

EDIT: I wonder who'll get this reference first?

Edited January 12, 2013 by Soledai

[Integrity]

Curious. You seem to imply that "translating" names and "changing" names are synonymous actions. Using the term "direct transliteration" certainly gives me that feeling.

To clarify, I'm using the term "changing" as meaning turning a name into something different than what it started as.

Translating and changing are synonymous, love. That's the whole and the complete story. At its very most basic, changing the sounds made from the katakana *is* a change, whether you want to classify it as such or not. Either A) the only option is Soru or B) something has been changed. You can make an argument that Sol (/soul) is a contender for "well you didn't change it" but that's only because katakana is so hilariously limited for transliterating from Latin-based consonant clusterfucks.

As it stands, transliterating is a really shitty way to translate. It's lazy, it looks like hell, and the final product will reek of a lack of polish. If you're going to take something from one language and put it into another and do a good job of it, you have to overhaul, plain and simple.

And, no offense, but that's a silly question when considering the ambiguous nature of katakana. I....cannot answer that question simply. What is that word for being able to see multiple sides of an argument? That's what I'm like in this situation, about transliteration. On one hand, yes, because it stays true to the person's actual name. On the other hand, no, because always transliterating katakana is quite silly; but leniency does not entitle one to change a name to something different.

My beef is with names being changed. I've nothing against transliterations; they are close to the person's actual name, even if it might look silly/stupid. But yes, they can end up looking very stupid. That's just my personal opinion about transliterations. I am allowed to have my own opinions, right?

Except that here's the thing: there is no "actual" name. The name the original guy came up with originally was for a Japanese audience. It was ソル. It is doubtful that he was thinking "I should name this guy Sol" or anything Latin-based. We are not a Japanese audience. By hiring translators, like it or not, you *are* giving them leave to change things if it suits their needs. Their job is not to faithfully recreate a work, detail-for-minute-detail, their job is to bring the work into a different language and to have it have an impact comparable to the original in its new home. Limiting the translators by forcing them to stay with the TRUE NAMES! isn't only daft, it's actively harmful to the work. I'm not saying every name should be changed completely just for the hell of it, but I'm saying that if the translators do that it's their divine right to.

Look at the darling of all translators ever: Terra from FF6. You probably know the story - her name was Tina because that's exotic in Japan or osmethne so the brilliant motherfucker who brought the game over to Anglotopia he decided on the important aspect of her name. The important aspect wasn't that her name was Tina, the important aspect was that her name was exotic so as to evoke feelings of that sort. Ergo, Terra was born, being an exotic-looking name for Anglotopia, and it was adored.

Unless you can tell me that the original intent of X name was to evoke Y feeling and that the translated name does not evoke that feeling to a large proportion of the consumer base, you're quite wrong in saying the translators are to be damned for changing the holy original names. I'm not trying to push opinions here, this is how translating *is*.

Transliteration vs Translating vs Changing:

[spoiler=Let's have an example...]...such as Stahl's katakana. Transliteration would be "Soru". But the word could be "Sol" because of katakana's obscurity. If it's taken to be "Sol", then it could be translated into "Sun". Although, that's not translating from Japanese. Now, if it's taken to be "Soru", then that is a Japanese word. It means "to shave", so perhaps it would simply be "Shave".

Also, we could mention the Nintendo of Japan "official" romanization: Sort. That's very improper compared to the katakana, but...perhaps the T is supposed to be silent. Either way, continuing.

Now then, we have options. Soru, Sol, Sun, Shave, Sort. You've certainly said it, Integrity: some things sound like shit in certain cultures. We can throw out "Shave" and "Sort". And might as well throw out "Sun" since it is another common English word.

Well.

Regardless of the five options stated, however silly they may seem, Nintendo of America didn't use any of them. They instead changed the character's name to Stahl. It....starts with an S?

Should we have another example, for the heck of it? Let's take Lissa. Transliteration is "Rizu". Rizu looks quite silly, but it's true to the person's actual name. But it could be "Lizu". Or "Riz". Or "Liz". Well hey, Liz makes enough sense in English.

Nope, they changed it to Lissa. It....starts with "Li"?

PS: I thought of "Salt" at one point. Sort could be heard as Solt. Salt. So many possibilities.

While I appreciate the intent behind writing this thing, you really don't have to explain transliterating to me. I'm well aware of the difference between translating and transliterating, and I've already asserted that translating and changing are, in a competent work, one and the same.

Your logical fallacy is when you assume that the translated name has to be linguistically based on the original. It doesn't, at all. Do you know that the NoJ dude who was whipping this shit up picked Sol for its connection to the sun? It's a guess, and a damn good one, but not a certainty. If Sol had anything to do with the sun in the plot of FE13, you'd have some ground to stand on but (as far as I know, rey?) he doesn't so you don't. Similar to Lissa. リズ carries none of the (or far different? i can't definitively say) connotations in Japan. Liz, okay, it's a bit harsh and very obviously a nickname so it would WORK, but why must we limit the translators to the direct lettering of the original? Why? I want a reason besides "because it was the original" because that holds no weight. No competent translator translates verbatim, they translate the intent first and then (if necessary) try to keep the wording closer to the original rather than farther.

If you want to use a particular name, make your own game.

But here's the thing, mate: they *are* making their own game. They're taking a game that 95% (at least) of their buyer base would never have seen and they're bringing it here. The translators are being given a script and they're being told to revise it into another language. This involves damn near as much work as just throwing it together originally did. So they *are* making their own game, no vestiges of the original need apply, and therefore they *are* licensed to revise the names if it suits the new work.

Of course, it's been the norm in the history of video games for some names to be changed. That doesn't mean I have to like it. But also, that doesn't mean I should be forcing my opinions onto others; pretty sure I don't do that, I just...get vocal occasionally. Does it count for something that I usually rant aloud instead of targeting specific people? And hey, the sarcasm directed at NoA, was sarcasm...

Ah last little thing: the 'disclaimer' about it being "just a rant" was so that people who disagree don't have to feel it necessary to speak up. Obviously they can if they want to; this is a thread for opinions. I was trying to skirt around actually saying "I'm not trying to start a war."

You can have opinions, but if they run so absolutely against the grain of what I believe I'm going to challenge you on them if you put them out there, regardless of the disclaimers you put up. If somebody's gonna disagree, you saying "you can't have to disagree i can just tacitly win~" isn't going to do anything to prevent that.

EDIT: Also, Plegia was TOTALLY supposed to be Phrygia which is actually a place and that makes me a little sad that it didn't go that way because I love saying Phrygia :(

Edited January 12, 2013 by Integrity

[shadowofchaos]

No competent translator translates verbatim, they translate the intent first and then (if necessary) try to keep the wording closer to the original rather than farther.

Words to live by.

This is relevant right here, considering I had a Kingdom Hearts fanboy argue that they did a bad job translating Katakana reaction commands and limit break names.

Because "Trick Faster" doesn't sound awkward as all hell Engrish for a limit break.

Edited January 12, 2013 by shadowofchaos

[Trickster]

Keeping names, like people said before, is a terrible idea. In the sacred stones we have Gerik, or known in the japanese as ジスト or Jisuto. So putting, Jisuto in the english version would have made no sense, it doesn't feel like a name. So the came up with Gerik and that's what we all call him now. Sure Stahl isn't similar at all to Sol or Soru but that's what the translators thought would work best and they acted on it. So we have to accept it as his name, which isn't that bad of a name anyway.

[Integrity]

Keeping names, like people said before, is a terrible idea. In the sacred stones we have Gerik, or known in the japanese as ジスト or Jisuto. So putting, Jisuto in the english version would have made no sense, it doesn't feel like a name. So the came up with Gerik and that's what we all call him now. Sure Stahl isn't similar at all to Sol or Soru but that's what the translators thought would work best and they acted on it. So we have to accept it as his name, which isn't that bad of a name anyway.

Dude. It's Xyst. Xyst is badass*.

Xyst is fucking awful but at least it isn't HEINOUS

[Specta]

Or Asseray.

Asseray is not a good name.

[Folt]

Words to live by.

This is relevant right here, considering I had a Kingdom Hearts fanboy argue that they did a bad job translating Katakana reaction commands and limit break names.

Ah, Kingdom Hearts. I love the the changes the translators make most of the time, since they usually let me understand the story a bit better than had it simply being transliterated, and make it sound much cooler than if they had literally done it (like in the newest released game, Light Hammer and Dark Fierce changed into Shining Hammer and Darkest Fears, and the descriptions for the new enemies are often hilarious).

Generally, I agree that a translator shouldn't follow the script to the letter, as doing so ruins the spirit of it more often than not. They should rather focus on getting the spirit of it across, as I find that the quality becomes much better when they do so.

[Tarquin]

To everything Integrity said about transliteration: Amen, brother. I wanted to say something similar but lacked the eloquence. No offense meant to Tsamimi, of course. Everyone IS entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that keeping names exactly as they are during translation would be a terrible, terrible idea.

[Sock]

You can have opinions, but if they run so absolutely against the grain of what I believe I'm going to challenge you on them if you put them out there, regardless of the disclaimers you put up. If somebody's gonna disagree, you saying "you can't have to disagree i can just tacitly win~" isn't going to do anything to prevent that.

Because picking apart someone's opinion is tactful.

Jeez man.

Even if it was a rant, it's not the type of rant that screams "YOU PEOPLE ARE STUPID FOR THINKING DIFFERENTLY FROM ME." I was being a pacifist in that others shouldn't feel the need to arrogantly present their own opinion as fact just to spite me. Be civil about it.

I don't like name changes. Is that simple enough, for you to not tear me a new hide? I'm not screaming "OHMYGOD THEYRUINEDTHEENTIREGAME DON'TSUPPORTTHISBULLCRAP". ...What I was ranting about is that I personally don't like it, and my silly reasons why. (Yes, I can see through my own biases and see that my opinions would be viewed as "silly" or "stupid" or "unfounded" to the majority of people.)

You're an adaptable individual, and you can express your opinions very well. I'm not, and can't very well, but it's not a crime to have my own opinions. /inb4 a person should be able to fully and explicitly back up their opinions if they present them publicly

Your views on name changes and localizations are fine. I don't agree on some points, but hey, that's life. Yet you go off and rip apart everything I say. You asked a question, and I tried to answer the best I could, but you rip it apart just because you have your own opinions.

Good job antagonizing me. You made me cry because my anxiety flared.

I know for a fact that you aren't anywhere near done belittling me for having a mind of my own, but I'm done here. This is an opinion thread and I've shared mine, albeit as a rant. I don't care for the tone you're presenting.

To anyone reading: HAHA VERY FUNNY, A CRYBABY POSTING ON FORUMS. ... You're welcome.

Or: HAHA SHE GAVE UP BECAUSE SHE CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING AS A COUNTER. ... I know what you're thinking! (Joke's on you.)

@thread: It's funny how talking about transliterating names turns into talking about transliterating game text.

[Soledai]

Whoa.. lots of tension in here, so I'm just gonna mention a few names I left out earlier *due to laziness*

Donnel... lol, Chrom calls him Donny anyway

Ferox... Frox-Frog-Fox-Fer...???

Validar - 'Yeah the Vader jokes'

By far, My favorite names are

Lucina

and Anna (now I'm just being silly^_^)

Edited January 12, 2013 by Soledai

[Kon]

I'm actually quite fond of the localized names. Sure, a couple of them made me got "wat" at first, but they grew on me pretty quickly.

And I think that Ferox is supposed to be pronounced "Feroh", but I'm not quite sure.

Oh, and for the Sol/Stahl thing, Sol already exists as a skill in the game, so it would be a little silly seeing Sol use Sol, y'know?

Edited January 12, 2013 by Kon

[Wheels]

Oh, with Cherche.

Because there's no accent on the 'e', it's not 'sher-shay', it's just plain old "Shersh".

http://www.forvo.com/word/je_cherche/

^Some french dude saying it XD

[Strunk]

I'm actually quite fond of the localized names. Sure, a couple of them made me got "wat" at first, but they grew on me pretty quickly.

I agree with this completely. Even if I started out disliking whatever name, within a day I find myself liking it.

It would be a little silly seeing Sol use Sol, y'know?

Silly, or the best thing ever?

[AstraSage]

My two cents in the issue: it was well-known Stahl would have his name localized from the beginning because Sol the Skill had priority over the Character Previously known as Sol and it would've been a huge misnomer if the latter had kept that transliteration because he has no access to the Hero class...

Also, after seeing Velvet being localized as Panne, there's around a 20% Chambray might get localized as Batiste.

[Diortem]

Oh, with Cherche.

Because there's no accent on the 'e', it's not 'sher-shay', it's just plain old "Shersh".

http://www.forvo.com/word/je_cherche/

^Some french dude saying it XD

Now it sounds even MORE like Serge.

Also, I never really considered that Sol, if he had that name, would be in the same game with a skill named sol. Huh.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Diortem

[Trickster]

Oh, and for the Sol/Stahl thing, Sol already exists as a skill in the game, so it would be a little silly seeing Sol use Sol, y'know?

Actually Sol doesn't have access to the mercenary or fighter so he can't get Sol unless you give him Sol(sword) then Sol can use Sol but only when using Sol.

[Diortem]

Actually Sol doesn't have access to the mercenary or fighter so he can't get Sol unless you give him Sol(sword) then Sol can use Sol but only when using Sol.

Mother of Sol...

[Iridium]

Though I'm against changing names randomly, when it leads to something awkward in the target language, unless that's the intention it needs to be done.

For Sol, this was the case. The only direction they could possibly have gone with it that would sound at all natural in English is Saul, and looky-looky, we already have one of those. I'm impressed they managed to get something so close to it - the only differences between 'Sol' and 'Stahl' are a 't' and an accent.

And you know what? Stahl sounds incredibly sexy to me. I'm definitely marrying him now.

[RJWalker]

Integrity that was awesome. Respect.

[Mysterique Sign]

Also, after seeing Velvet being localized as Panne, there's around a 20% Chambray might get localized as Batiste.

...I like it

[Masked_Hunter1825]

Valider is better than Fauder I think. Makes him sound like Cannon Fodder.

[Agro]

It's probably worth noting that "Fauder" is pronounced like "Fowder" (rhyming with powder) but I didn't like that one anyway because it made me think of Fowler which made me think of chickens.