FE13 Hard Mode Tier List

[Lord Raven]

Letting discussion go on until wednesday. I'll be doing nothing after tomorrow since I don't have a prelab to do this week.

Call personal experience all you want but the fact is a) virions post-promo gains are ridiculous, b) I'm not the only one whose gotten a Virion with really good stats before. I don't trust SFs growths fully, and in fact I may have actually gotten his average in my playthroughs (19 defense by 20/5 actually sounds average) - but his averages do fine and he starts with an iron bow.

EDIT: Oh you're ayanami. lol

Edited February 4, 2013 by Lord Raven

[arvilino]

Um...u can't ferry units in this game. They only can be rescued with Rescue staves.

You can using the Pair Up system. like Lord Raven's Example of Frederick and Sumia. Frederick moves to pair up with Sumia, Sumia then uses her turn to move across the terrain(e.g. Desert) and can drop Frederick off. In fact Ferrying is even more convienient in this game because the carrier doesn't initiate Pair Up(as opposed to Rescue) thus can drop a unit off the turn they are ferried.

[Lord Raven]

Knocked to page 2. Damn.

I don't want to be tyrannical in this tier list, but I want to propose a metric early to prevent these LTC arguments and LTC-based arguments. I personally really dislike LTC as a sort of metric, especially in this relatively fast-paced game. My proposal is that we pretty much play it out through the point where reinforcements stop showing up, preventing an early rout. If not that, then a metric where we'd be required to obtain all treasure and items given by enemies - something kind of like that which encourages not 1-turning the boss like in Chapter 15 but not playing sluggishly. Your thoughts? I don't want to make it too strict to allow for open-ended discussion but I personally do not want this to devolve into a never-ending circlejerk of who saves what turns when.

I really hope I don't suddenly kill activity with this proposal. I am not budging on my stance on LTC, but a metric that is somewhat rigid but open-ended to an extent to allow for good discussion is what I'm looking for, and I feel like this proposal hits a good middle-ground. This is a game that is heavily affected by this sort of thing, because early clears of certain chapters provide much difficulty later on anyway, but it won't stop any of you. It also makes use of Rescue for tactical flexibility thing as opposed to obtaining lower turncounts.

Paper somewhat pushed me to make this announcement to nip the issue in the bud before it comes up in greater detail. I still maintain that I will make some huge posts tonight or tomorrow night.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Espinosa]

"Pure LTC" is a fairly straightforward concept where you have some sort of specific ideal playthrough, often in many variations (flexibility tends to depend on the game), where you judge characters according to their possible contributions to such a run and, in the event they fail to contribute to it, assume they are in play anyway and how much their presence would hurt your turn counts.

Until such playthrough exists in well-documented form (several might be needed), discussions about "LTC vs non-LTC" aren't going very far because nobody knows for sure how an LTC run would play out. Before that we're stuck at the PEMN stage for a while.

[XeKr]

The game has an underwhelming Jeigan character (i.e. not Seth) and a dozen of optional Nino archetype children. I think I can see where this is going. At least Serenes is safe.

Is Lucina even good enough, or also requires babying?

The growth unit issue is far more interesting than previous FEs, since they do surpass the prepromo or early promoted units quickly if you do feed those kills. Particularly if not assuming LTC play.

At least in my run (I tend to rout all and spread exp somewhat evenly), the earlier children catch up and surpass the parents extremely quickly with a little kill prioritization and/or Pair Up/Rally Spectrum assistance. A reclassed child gets 60-70 exp per kill while your promoted units get around 15. They come with around 15-20 in each stat. They typically can one-round or close to that at base with Pair Up/Rally. The early ones like Lucina (even with Olivia inherited bases, not Sumia or FeAvatar as mother)/Owain (heavily benefited from a trained Donnel's inheritance) can Master Seal immediately to be comparable to or better statwise than say, Say'ri, or reclass then promote (which is very quick, took about a chapter) to be among your strongest units.

It's not comparable to Donnel who does need severe babying early, though I found a Support with Kellam lets him chip kills and tank decently. Still, if you Second Seal him early he's comparable to early promoted units. In my run right now he's by far my strongest unit, with his son Owain close behind even though I just got him a chapter or so ago. Meanwhile units like Cordelia who was early promoted and now a ~12/10 Dark Flier is losing in like 10 points in all stats (some stats in teens vs in 30s) and still growing slower. Still, she still tends to one-round consistently and have high durability in the storyline chapters with Pair Up support, but that might change as more enemies start to get promoted.

Some of my units like Donnel/Owain could take on the harder paralogues like Inigo/Sevara's now as they're opening (I've done no skirmishes either) while others that were early promoted like Cordelia/Tharja would get crushed. Even Avatar who is like 15/(15/1) loses badly in stats, though I think he got Spd/Def screwed. Other reclass -> promo units like Chrom/Lon'qu are inbetween Donnel/Cordelia statwise. Again, they all destroy (usually one round everything at 1-2 range, don't have much chance of dying) the current storyline chapters. Again, that might change.

Essentially it's not that straightforward for the children because of their high bases relative to their low level (Gets exp like level 6-10 with stats like a level 21 unit) and more skills. Smart use of Pair Up/Rally is overkill for some units, at least midgame, and mitigate any lowish bases.

So much for focusing on a few characters at once. I may comment on the characters actually being tiered now later.

I do tend to favor a stricter measure, like reliable LTC, to better gauge the distinctions between characters. Reliability first, but faster is better. Pure LTC does not seem as conducive to discussion. A leniant requirement is not that interesting to me. I'll leave the arguments about tiering philosophy to others and just go with whatever people decide. <_<

Edited February 5, 2013 by XeKr

[Espinosa]

Interesting. Perhaps Awakening moves FE gaming to the realm where it is with the rest of the RPGs where the kind of efficiency we've agreed upon doesn't work to get one through the game's content?

[XeKr]

Oh I'm sure strict LTC works. The mininum 8 exp and unlimited levels system means it's easy to have a few super-units. I'm just noting how fast growth units can reach their (sometimes overkill) potential.

I actually think having some early promo units to carry through early midgame, then some children to carry through lategame would work well in efficient play. Or just Avatar-solo. >_>

[CinderSkye]

Up to Chapter 9, done all of the paralogues so far. My party's sitting at level 10 average, I'd say. Avatar's a Grandmaster, Donny's a Fighter, and Mirabelle is a Battle Cleric. I've had two skirmishes and three runs through the DLC.

Not sure what my RNG luck is, really, but I'm suspicious of Miriel being anywhere near as good as as Virion so far. She has been, hands down, the biggest liability on my party not named Donny; she almost never doubles, doesn't hit phenomenally hard, I'm not fond of most of her support options so far (bear in mind that maybe there's a really good option that she got pre-empted from when I paired them with someone else) and has the durability of wet tissue paper even paired with Kellam.

Likewise, I feel Donny's overstated for how much he has to be babied. The consumable chocolate item and pairing up with Kellam, Sumia or Cordelia is nearly essential for him, but good god he turned into a beast when he promoted.

I have only used Frederick once so far since I had the option to stop using him - paired with Sumia, I was able to reach Anna in Paralogue 2 ASAP and keep her alive.

Edited February 5, 2013 by CinderSkye

[Lord Raven]

Oh I'm sure strict LTC works. The mininum 8 exp and unlimited levels system means it's easy to have a few super-units. I'm just noting how fast growth units can reach their (sometimes overkill) potential.

I actually think having some early promo units to carry through early midgame, then some children to carry through lategame would work well in efficient play. Or just Avatar-solo. >_>

These are the things I do not want in my tier list. I do apologize for the aggravated tone but I have made it clear in my previous post that I do not want avatar solos or anything. That's why I assume veteran-less avatar once you are able to remove it, so there is no avatar solo.

[Espinosa]

How quickly does Veteran!Avatar grow when overlevelled?

Sorry for all the questions, I still have two months at least until I get my copy.

[Othin]

How quickly does Veteran!Avatar grow when overlevelled?

Sorry for all the questions, I still have two months at least until I get my copy.

Fast enough that my Lunatic run ended with him having five stats capped.

Granted, this was with him spending half the game as pretty much my entire front line. But that's because it worked.

[Espinosa]

MU can act as a frontliner? Defence blessed or Nosferatank?

[Othin]

Excessive mangrit.

To be clear, that meant typically surviving 2-3 rounds of enemy phase combat. Compared to the standard 0-1 rounds of my other characters, that's a lot.

[Lord Raven]

It doesn't matter if he gets blessed or not, he gains levels so fast it's ridiculous. His minimum exp gain with veteran is 12/kill, everyone else is 8. Not even getting into the fact that he tends to over level and overpower every other unit by retarded amounts. It's more or less exactly like giving Sigurd paragon in FE4. His veteran exp bonuses give him higher exp gain in almost every situation possible. Anyone who has beaten the game with a veteran avatar will agree with me here; with veteran he hits levels of overpowered beyond Sigurd in fe4.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Lord Raven

[Ema Skye]

How quickly does Veteran!Avatar grow when overlevelled?

They'll hit Lv.20 before the first Master Seal is normally available.

[Lord Raven]

And somehow it's faster and more reliable to play like that too

[Othin]

I would hesitate to say Sigurd/Seth levels. But better than any other FE character ever? Absolutely.

[shadykid]

And somehow it's faster and more reliable to play like that too

Well, when you only use one good character, they'll always end up extremely OP

[Lord Raven]

Yeah but some of them can't keep it up the whole game. Avatar? Well shit...

[Othin]

Or can't reasonably get there without abuse.

But yeah probably the biggest thing is not having those pesky level caps.

[Darth_Lavos]

Well, when you only use one good character, they'll always end up extremely OP

*Will preface this with I'm a noob and I haven't gotten the game yet, so if I'm wrong call me out*

The advantages of Veteran and minimum EXP ensure the MU will be at a higher level than the rest of party unless you ration him like you would a Jeigan(or even more so). Furthermore, with the MU's versatility in being able to attack physically and magically, as well as being able build supports with the entire cast, and supporting them even further through Solidarity and Rainbow Cry ensure that he'll never come up against an enemy he can't hurt and he'll always make the units around him better. Say I were to only use Raven in FE7, of course he would turn out excellent, but what happens when he comes up against a boss with a good defense and a weapon triangle disadvantage? You've gotta hope to get lucky and you end up having to waste turns because you can't kill him efficiently. Same thing would happen if I only used Erk and I came up against a Shaman with good resistance. MU can hit both ways, support everyone, and with Veteran get stronger faster. If I use every character equally then by the time the Party is at level 10 MU is at level 15 and and on average has an extra 4 HP, 2.75 Str/LCK, 2.5 MAG/SKL/SPD, 2 Def and 1.5 Res, +/- asset/flaw variations. MU doesn't need to be used more than everyone else to be better than everyone else, especially from an LTC standpoint.

[Espinosa]

Can you ever just switch him out of the party? I think you could do it in FE12 after the Prologue but I'm not sure (why would you not use MU in every single map).

[Samias]

MU can be left on the bench after the prep screen pops up, except for the final battle where he/she is mandatory. Veteran can also be taken off, and MU will be a little more ordinary, if it weren't for the fact that he/she also supports with everyone and can reclass into any class in the game with nothing but genderlocks to consider. MU is also one of the few characters who excels at split offence classes, having high growths in both strength and magic. So MU is pretty much cemented as top of top tier and there's little else to discuss about their performance.

[Espinosa]

Just noticed this is the first game since FE6 where you can have a female Hero - nice!

I'm not sure if MU's flexibility with reclassing gives it such advantage over the rest of the cast that he can't even be discussed. Reclassing into E ranks sounds rather unpromising, so tomes/swords define the efficient MU options (I wonder if that's a true estimate). The tome/sword reclass options are extensive enough to matter, though, but before we can say anything, we should know for sure what is most optimal.

[Lord Raven]

That's not his only reclass flexibility. Build up his swords and many classes open up for him. Same with tomes. He can actually do almost anything he wants and his high stats make him murderous with a bronze. Now I do agree that discussion should exist for avatar but I don't think it'll go anywhere.

Veteran avatar is miles ahead of everyone though. I will not budge on that. The other avatar isn't miles ahead, but he's still incredible.