FE13 Hard Mode Tier List

[Darth_Lavos]

I'm not sure if MU's flexibility with reclassing gives it such advantage over the rest of the cast that he can't even be discussed. Reclassing into E ranks sounds rather unpromising, so tomes/swords define the efficient MU options (I wonder if that's a true estimate). The tome/sword reclass options are extensive enough to matter, though, but before we can say anything, we should know for sure what is most optimal.

Not necessarily with a quick reclass to Cavvy getting him discipline. Beat on some scrubs with iron weapons for a map or two and you got handaxe/javelin, mess with that a map or two and you've got C, which is really all you'll need unless you get to something really strong.

[Espinosa]

Not necessarily with a quick reclass to Cavvy getting him discipline. Beat on some scrubs with iron weapons for a map or two and you got handaxe/javelin, mess with that a map or two and you've got C, which is really all you'll need unless you get to something really strong.

I've thought of that but surely that's quite a lot of reclassing? At least you keep your sword rank when you reclass into Cav so you're still reliable.

[Darth_Lavos]

Once again, don't have the game yet, so I don't have an idea of how long each the maingame is, but the way I see it you go tact->grand->cavvy->whatever. Or even skip grandmaster if ignis and rainbow cry aren't that important to you.That's one promotion and two reclasses to reach your final goal, which is only 10/15/10 levels, or just 10/10 levels if you skip GM. By that time Lance should be up to a good level just from Cavvy training, and sword/tome should be good from tact and GM leveling. So extra training afterwards only really applies if you want to use axes or bows. Assuming the MU is only getting kills and only getting getting min exp it takes 75 kills to take him from level 1 to level 10 with Veteran. You could probably ball park MU hitting level ten in 40-55 kills due to boss kills, not killing, fighting near leveled enemies, etc. getting to 10/10( going straight to cavvy) in 100-130 kills(guessing midgameish, leaning towards endgame), or 10/15/10 in 190-220ish kills(near endgameish I'm guessing). Looking at the data the grandmaster route probably wouldn't be viable if you want to be a berzerker/sniper etc. but any lance class(Dark Flier comes to mind) should be viable. Straight tactician to cavvy should work for axes/bows,

Edited February 6, 2013 by Darth_Lavos

[Samias]

Skipping grandmaster is a bad idea. I have played through a few times already and Rally Spectrum is one of the best skills in the entire game. Dark Knight and Dark Peg are two of the best options, affording mobility, shared weapons, split offense, and great skills (though dark knight takes awhile). Taking a side trip to cavalier for discipline is better for post game grinding because it is difficult to reclass into more than 3 classes without major grinding.

[Paperblade]

You really really don't want to go from a promoted class into an unpromoted class, since after spending 10 levels in the unpromoted class and 15 in the promoted, your stats are probably high enough that your stats will be capped in an unpromoted class or close to it

[Othin]

Rally Spectrum is the best skill, period.

[XeKr]

How much reclassing is happening anyway, particularly early? Without Annas, there can't be that many Second Seals before C16, which is quite late though useful for the children.

I've found units that do reclass -> promote are pretty dominant throughout the game. But competition has got to be pretty high between those who reclass to something they have a good weapon rank in (Vaike/Chrom/maybe Sumia/Gaius/Gregor) or those with Discipline or those who reclass to Dracoknights (Many characters. Panne is the best, probably followed by Sully/Lon'qu. +2 Str mitigates starting with Bronze, and stat distribution is great with Str/Def class bases/growth balancing Skl/Spd personal bases/growths. Flying, high move, as well as Tantivy, Quick Burn or Carrier are all amazing) or are prepromos (Mostly Frederick) or is Donnel.

To elaborate as this limited reclass issue, and as a point for discussion, how is Vaike, for example, that much worse than non-Veteran Avatar? Chrom/Lon'qu support help early speed, and he has ridiculous Str and other growths. 15/10% more than Avatar growths is 3-4 points over 30 levels and 4-6 points over 40 levels. If Avatar goes for Rally Spectrum while Vaike reclasses to Barb, it's Rally utility and general flexibility vs. getting completely destroyed statistically.

I think Second Seals are akin to Statbooster allocation in previous games.

Edited February 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Lord Raven]

If anyone wants a response to their posts, link it to me and I will try my best to respond. Too many points to get to and I don't want to jump in the middle of a discussion.

Some edits I am about to make:

Lissa: Top -> Mid

Frederick: Bottom of High -> Above Virion

Donnel: To Bottom

Delete all old reasoning, include new reasoning for changes.

Added some new characters, up until Cordelia. Will update OP with descriptions now.

Edit: Tiered

Edited February 7, 2013 by Lord Raven

[zahlman]

I'm halfway through my first playthrough so I'm probably going to say a lot of dumb things. I already did a quick check and saw that my PE is definitely off in a couple places (e.g., my Lissa procs Mag way more than Maribelle).

Avatar is argued using his best build, which is subject to debate - I'd go +Mag -Lck but Paperblade loves +Mag -Str or -Skl. But it really doesn't make a difference in certain instances, and I expect Avatar's place to never actually change regardless of what we argue; his optimal bundle will evolve over time and he will stay damned good. However, I will place two Avatars on this tier list; one without Veteran and one with. The rest of the tier list will actually assume Veteran-less Avatar once we are given the ability to remove skills, simply on the grounds that Veteran makes him overpowered.

But like realistically are people going to disable Veteran but still use Avatar in practice? That seems a lot weirder than e.g. forgoing Seth to me.

Lon'qu... comes with his own Killing Edge

Okay? Lots of other people can use that. Do people rank Guy higher in FE7 because of his? As for him doubling stuff: Sumia has the same base after her skill, almost as good growth per the charts, and has a good reason to be paired up with Chrom who gives her even more speed. And she's around for longer. She's seriously, just, insane.

Also why do you have Virion in high tier? I don't see any explanation at all in the first post and, well, he's an archer. Those don't normally do very well. What are you doing with him exactly that helps save turns?

Frederick was moved to high because he is a tank while he is useful. Think of FE6 Marcus but actually legitimately extremely powerful until a difficulty spike makes him less important. Plus, double bonuses, although you may give up your slot later to one of Avatar's children who will have Rally Spectrum.

IDK, having Frederick as the secondary unit just seems weird to me, what with being mounted and all. The right supports can keep him doubling and ORKOing stuff, too (pairing him with Anna is kind of fun, if you don't consider it a waste of Anna's potential).

A lot of mid-tier additions here. Lissa and Maribelle are both similar but the difference is that Lissa has a little while before she can hit Valkyrie, and Maribelle can hit Valkyrie as soon as possible.

I made Lissa a PK. o_O It seems to work well, but I guess objectively I could have done all the same things with Cordelia...

Sully's problem is that her start is weak and she stays weak for a little while. She has a good stat spread but she just isn't that great until she starts gaining speed. Then she becomes a well-balanced sort of character to Stahl's gung-ho strength/defense. Her lance rank starts out as her best rank and it's hard to get a sword onto her to face the axe users until Stahl gets his iron sword, so being proficient at lances when axes are in most of the first thirds of the game is a hard deficiency to get past.

Kellam is a great double partner for his massive defense boosts, and he has more defense before class growths are added than most units have after. His reclass options are actually pretty bad but he has, at the very least, General and Great Knight as good options. He's best as a great knight, if he can get to that spot; it's doable since he does a lot of damage and takes so little for a while, but his speed is generally mediocre. He can take a magic hit decently but he will get doubled by mages quite a bit. A flawed unit with a lot of niche uses, but falls too far behind too quickly as a result of poor speed, movement, and reclass options in the early game.

Sounds about right. Incidentally those str/def double bonuses from Kellam are an amazing help to Sully, who in turn makes his lack of movement irrelevant. Also their support convos are gr9

Gaius is the glass cannon. His offensive growths and HP are very large yet his defensive capabilities are limited. He's really not that great a dodge tank either because his luck is pretty mediocre. It's a good thing that he can support Sumia though, because she can boost his evasion through the roof.

Interesting. But assuming male Avatar, Sumia pretty much belongs to Chrom, yeah? I guess that's another advantage to female Avatar if you like Gaius :P

Bottom: Donnel

AH KEN FAIGHT TEW! I'm sure it's impractical but I had him paired up with Vaike for a bit and I thought it was cute. The teacher and the apprentice, you know. Never mind that they use different weapons.

Cool, been looking forward to having this up.

Really don't see anyone but Avatar sitting at the top. I do prefer Female over Male because Female gets a lightning fast support with Chrom (both of my runsn had the S support by Chapter 7, and my turn counts are what I consider to be great).

Sumia x Chrom can build really fast too, but FeMU obviously has a couple extra chapters of availability, yeah.

I think Lissa is a bit too high as it is, but I'll wait and see how Libra and Anna stack up against her on this list before I complain about it. I find her Rescue Range to be really lacking, which is a problem considering most of the missions after Ch.15 are all defeat boss (I think Ch.23 is the only one that isn't). 13 Magic at Lv.10/1 Sage gives her 6 range, which is "decent", but fails to compare to Libra and Anna's 8 range, and 10/1 Sage!Miriel's 9 Range. Lissa may get Rescue before them, but she's not very good at using it until promotion.

Anna is great just on stats even without the Rescue potential. Also as a support she gives +1 mov.

Frederick... Pairing up with Sumia or Cordelia for Ch.8, 9 and 11 lets them be done very quickly.

Can you clear 9 before the reinforcement wyverns show up? I think I messed that up... had to send Libra back for them with some backup healing >_<

Even that doesn't quite make sense. In a game where magic dominates, you won't get a suitable magic husband until Ricken, and Tharja and Miriel both probably have superior stat bonuses to him. Whereas an a Male Avatar can start building an S support with Lissa right off the bat.

Well, I'd be interested to hear Raven's argument. If this actually is an argument, and not just him having the rank format in a weird way.

I think female MU is mostly just about having an amazing Lucina.

I wouldn't underestimate magic in this game. Generals sponge physical attacks to the point where even armorslayers and hammers might not deal with them in one round. Miriel is quite good but also very, very fragile, despite her great class set. However, I haven't used her enough to really form any good arguments for or against her performance.

Magic is great but the thing is that Avatar can use magic and also take a couple hits. Any magic users who can't take hits need a lot of other stuff going for them, or they're secondaries at best. Of course, there are enough rout maps early on that you can use them to clean up scraps, sure. Or ferry them to a boss to chip (or steal the kill?) or something... idk.

I do see what you're saying, but my problem with Dracoknight is the fact that she has to start out with a Bronze Axe off of her average attack. Her stats are too well-rounded for her to be amazing.

Yeah, bronze just sucks in general. Fortunately, arms scrolls exist. I will say though that I actually like that this game has those sucky weapons; it's not a huge problem because of all the other bonuses you can get, and it means you unlock more potential when you build up weapon/staff rank.

The problem with Stahl and Sully is that they can't attack from behind as easily.

What do you mean "from behind"?

Olivia being difficult to build up is actually very relevant to her children's quality, but the fact that Chrom/Olivia is very hard to do does not factor into Lucina's quality.

Okay, but it does factor into whether it's a good idea or not. Doing Chrom/Olivia comes at the opportunity cost of not doing Chrom/anyone else. Which means giving up a lot of support bonuses in the early game. (It's not like you're going to get them to S in time, so you have to keep everyone else low too.)

Edited February 8, 2013 by zahlman

[Lord Raven]

But like realistically are people going to disable Veteran but still use Avatar in practice? That seems a lot weirder than e.g. forgoing Seth to me.

To make an efficient playthrough more than just pumping up Avatar and watch him wreck shit

Okay? Lots of other people can use that. Do people rank Guy higher in FE7 because of his? As for him doubling stuff: Sumia has the same base after her skill, almost as good growth per the charts, and has a good reason to be paired up with Chrom who gives her even more speed. And she's around for longer. She's seriously, just, insane.

Lon'qu has way better Strength though, way better avoid and way better stats against many of the enemy units. Way more supports as well. Sumia grows and is afraid of bows, which will OHKO her on spot and make it hard for her to advance as anything but a ferry; Lon'qu doesn't have this problem.

Also do you have Virion in high tier? I don't see any explanation at all in the first post and, well, he's an archer. Those don't normally do very well. What are you doing with him exactly that helps save turns?

Saving turns is not my metric though.

IDK, having Frederick as the secondary unit just seems weird to me, what with being mounted and all. The right supports can keep him doubling and ORKOing stuff, too (pairing him with Anna is kind of fun, if you don't consider it a waste of Anna's potential).

No, because Frederick really dies down heavily at Chapter 16, and before then you start to see his faults.

Interesting. But assuming male Avatar, Sumia pretty much belongs to Chrom, yeah? I guess that's another advantage to female Avatar if you like Gaius :P

Supports are cool in general, not limited to pairings.

What do you mean "from behind"?

I hope that wasn't me who said that... o.o

Okay, but it does factor into whether it's a good idea or not. Doing Chrom/Olivia comes at the opportunity cost of not doing Chrom/anyone else. Which means giving up a lot of support bonuses in the early game. (It's not like you're going to get them to S in time, so you have to keep everyone else low too.)

Yeah but it has no bearing on Lucina's effectiveness when Olivia is her mother. Because it's more practical to judge as if fielding is a free spot, that way we don't get into all of these retarded opportunity cost arguments. If they're being judged they're there and if they are worse than another parent's child, they will be below that parent's child.

[Ema Skye]

I'm very much against Lon'qu being in top tier. Killing Edge is cool, but that's really all he brings to the table. I think you're overstating his durability, because Ch.5 Barbarians can 2HKO him if he isn't paired up with someone like Frederick or Kellam. C Swords is cool, but that alone isn't worthy of a top tier spot. Once Gaius or Chrom grab that C-rank in Swords, they'll use the Killing Edge better due to their better offensive parameters. I don't think he's worthy of being two tiers above Gaius when Lon'qu only has one chapter of availability over Gaius, and Gaius grows into a massive offensive juggernaut, and the two have very similar durability as well (Lon'qu has 20 HP / 7 Def / 2 Res while Gaius has 22 HP / 5 Def / 2 Res).

Panne in top I can totally approve of. She's really the face of offense in this game (75% Str / 70% Spe as a Draco is insane growth rate), and her durability is massive. E Axes suck but she'll get out of there fast since she kills things so fast.

I think Maribelle is fine where she is.

Cordelia should at least be as high as Sumia is, if not higher. Cordelia boasts a significant durability lead over Sumia (Sumia needs 7 HP and 3 Defense to match Cordelia's base durability), and Cordelia wins offense for the rest of the game. Sumia may have a speed advantage but Cordelia still doubles everything except for the occasional Myrmidon or Swordmaster so it isn't a big difference at all to be quite honest.

I already touched on Gaius when I talked about Lon'qu. Gaius can also go Trickster and make a fantastic support unit, giving both speed and movement. I think that the two are pretty much the same, with Lon'qu's better start getting cancelled out by Gaius' end.

[zahlman]

Lon'qu has way better Strength though, way better avoid and way better stats against many of the enemy units. Way more supports as well. Sumia grows and is afraid of bows, which will OHKO her on spot and make it hard for her to advance as anything but a ferry; Lon'qu doesn't have this problem.

Again I didn't try out Lon'qu but I'll take your word for it. But the thing with Sumia is (a) she doesn't get OHKOed *all* the time because everyone has great HP growths in this game (and her def isn't terrible either); (b) her avoid is insane (yeah it's not great to rely on that, but watching her avoid just grow and grow was so incredibly satisfying after raging at early chapters not having enemies with 40s hitrates post-WTD like I'm used to).

No, because Frederick really dies down heavily at Chapter 16, and before then you start to see his faults.

Yeah, I haven't gotten quite that far yet but I'm really not surprised. I already need a good pair for him for him to double stuff.

Yeah but it has no bearing on Lucina's effectiveness when Olivia is her mother. Because it's more practical to judge as if fielding is a free spot, that way we don't get into all of these retarded opportunity cost arguments. If they're being judged they're there and if they are worse than another parent's child, they will be below that parent's child.

Well I mean... "LTC is not my metric" is one thing, but just how good can Olivia!Lucina really be? Olivia is tiny and you only have her for a very short time before Chrom's wedding. If you're going to grind to make her good then you could do that with anyone. She doesn't, like, inherit the ability to dance or anything does she? :P

And how did this topic even come up, anyway?

----

On a side note, would you be open to the idea of making separate tier lists for unit performance as a primary vs. as support? Because I think there's a big gap in utility there for some (e.g. if Olivia is paired then she either isn't dancing or the unit she's paired with is more or less out of commission; contrarily Kellam is a great support for certain units but has the usual A-Knight problems otherwise).

Also Lucy, did your Sumia not have a big level lead on Cordelia when she joined? That was a big part of my reason for sticking with Sumia.

Edited February 8, 2013 by zahlman

[Onestep]

Well I mean... "LTC is not my metric" is one thing, but just how good can Olivia!Lucina really be? Olivia is tiny and you only have her for a very short time before Chrom's wedding. If you're going to grind to make her good then you could do that with anyone. She doesn't, like, inherit the ability to dance or anything does she? :P

I know it's not relevant to this Tier List, but Olivia's ability to gain XP without actually fighting is worth it's weight in gold on Lunatic difficulty due to the near impossiblity of effective grinding without DLC. If you're willing to spend twenty minutes at the end of Chapter 12 just dancing, then you can actually get a Lucina with solid enough base stats across the board to be usable on Lunatic.

[PKL]

Sumia can fly and counter bows as a Dark Flier. Usually ORKO'ing on the spot. She also faces like 20 hit from them and doesnt get OHKO'd (even my terribly def screwed Sumia) if you pair her up with Chrom and theyre married. Lon'qu doesnt even compare. I found him pretty bad actually and terrible outclassed once Say'ri shows up.

EDIT; Also, cordelia and Cherche are the best non-Avatar units in the game. Cordelia when paired with Fred. Cherche is just OP period. And youre underrating Gaius.

Edited February 8, 2013 by BASEDRyan

[GinRei]

Okay, but it does factor into whether it's a good idea or not. Doing Chrom/Olivia comes at the opportunity cost of not doing Chrom/anyone else. Which means giving up a lot of support bonuses in the early game. (It's not like you're going to get them to S in time, so you have to keep everyone else low too.)

Only FeMU, Sumia, Sully, and Maribelle. Honestly, it isn't that tough. There's plenty of males he can support with (Frederick and Vaike, off the top of my head), plus his own sister. Granted, on Lunatic I'd pull no punches and just go with one of the other girls from the start, but Hard isn't so overbearing that you can't make choices based on preferences.

[nyttyn]

[spoiler=Extremely light spoilers about the name of a second generation charater]Just as a complete side note, Morgan will probably have to get her own tier above Veteran Avatar because she's just Vet Avatar ^2. Or vet Avatar ^2.5 if you decide to make her a Third Gen Kid with Ms Supar Spoiler. Although, like all kids, her stats will vary, she represents everything the Avatar stands for and even more.

Anyways, I'd rank Sumia higher because a early Peg Knight is kind of a big deal due to mobility. Sure there's the isue that she's wrecked by bow users but if you use pair up just right then she's very useful. Certainly more useful then Viron, who still suffers from Archersbane (aka enemy phase). That plus the early availability of good lances vs the horrible availilbity of good bows makes Sumia solidly above Virion.

Liss should be ranked up to top, because she's your only healer for quite some time. That alone gives her a very high degree of importance, and with (very casual, hell you can probably just have her heal some paper cuts while still finishing the mission at a decent pace) staff abuse and all the running around healing she'll have to do anyways, she'll probably be gaining a lot of levels. Solid (if bottom) high tier, imo.

Male Avatar is superior to Female Avatar, in my opinion, for two reasons: The first of which is, obviously, the Avatar is going to be able to get two kids, which is pretty huge given how ludicrious Avatar gets even without trying. Secondly, although this does take a small but consdierable chunk of aditional investment, Male Avatar gets access to the single most overpowered kid in the entire game, even if it does mean they're only getting one kid.

Also

sweetens the deal

I see what you did there.

Edited February 8, 2013 by nyttyn

[GinRei]

Male Avatar is superior to Female Avatar, in my opinion, for two reasons: The first of which is, obviously, the Avatar is going to be able to get two kids, which is pretty huge given how ludicrious Avatar gets even without trying. Secondly, although this does take a small but consdierable chunk of aditional investment, Male Avatar gets access to the single most overpowered kid in the entire game, even if it does mean they're only getting one kid.

Couldn't a female Avatar do the same with any of aforementioned Wife's brothers? Most noteably, Inigo (who I believe has nearly identical stats to her), who passes on Royal Weapon rather than Aether?

[Darth_Lavos]

Male Avatar is superior to Female Avatar, in my opinion, for two reasons: The first of which is, obviously, the Avatar is going to be able to get two kids, which is pretty huge given how ludicrious Avatar gets even without trying. Secondly, although this does take a small but consdierable chunk of aditional investment, Male Avatar gets access to the single most overpowered kid in the entire game, even if it does mean they're only getting one kid.

The thing of it is though, FeMU is able to get 2 kids as well, and has access to the most powerful kid in the game. While Morgan will end up more powerful than MU in the end, how long will it take to get Morgan? After that how long will it take to to train him/her up to a level where s/he's as good as the MU? How long will it take for him/her to get better?

[nyttyn]

The thing of it is though, FeMU is able to get 2 kids as well, and has access to the most powerful kid in the game. While Morgan will end up more powerful than MU in the end, how long will it take to get Morgan? After that how long will it take to to train him/her up to a level where s/he's as good as the MU? How long will it take for him/her to get better?

[spoiler=Getting ahead of ourselves so I'll go ahead and spoiler this discussion]

Derp. I was wrong about the 2 kids thing because I forgot Spoiler Lady was tied to Chrom. My bad! So that point goes against Male Avatar again. But then you do have the freedom of not having to marrry Chrom to get two avatar-kids, which offers more freedom support-wise. Plus that means you also get two Chrom-kids.

You can get Morgan at the same time you get access to a lot of the kids, which is what, Ch15? By that point the game starts to seriously ramp up the bullshit (admittedly it can't really catch up if you DLC and grind, but let's not assume either of those since they break the game in completely different ways outright), but you've just gotten Morgan who is availible before it gets too bad. She starts off at 10 which isn't a huge level of catch up, and Veteran lets her skyrocket through that particular problem anyway. She'll probably wind up overtaking the MU in about 3-4 maps, as has been my personal experience, at which point she just gets better from there. Now granted, it'll ultimately be simpler to just have HULK VETERAN AVATAR SMASH PUNY GAME, but with a little effort, you can have MEGA HULK VETERAN MORGAN TOTALLY SMASH PUNY GAME.

The ease of supports with Male Avatar people talked about is still a point in Male Avatar's favor overall though, which is why I'd rate him above Female Avatar. That and two Chrom Kids, and with Chrom's stats having double Chrom Kid and double Avatar Kid might be worth considering. But overall children are kind of a crapshoot as it's a pain to train them in the harder difficulties so it might just be better to have that one superstrong kid.

Couldn't a female Avatar do the same with any of aforementioned Wife's brothers? Most noteably, Inigo (who I believe has nearly identical stats to her), who passes on Royal Weapon rather than Aether?

Granted you could do this, but Inigo I have found is a royal pain in the ass to train if you aren't careful, and his prologue is just brutal to beat. At the same time you could just have Spoiler Kid pair up with Male Avatar and get Aether Morgan far sooner and more reliably then Royal Weapon Morgan, plus Chrom Kid Kid stats that early. Unfortunately either way you'll have to baby Kid Kid Morgan (as I've dubed Third Gen Morgan), but I feel he/she is worth the payoff as a fantastic Est-esque.

Incidentally what other points in Fem Avatar's favor am I missing? I'm pretty sure i'm overlooking something at this point

Donnel still sux please make a Donnel tier to rate him lower. Anyways I'm thinking that Maribelle might want to be rated higher thanks to horse access, but then there's also the fact that you get her so much latter then Liss who's probably your superhealer by this point. Still, think she should be Top tier as well just due to how indespensible Mend and friends are on Hard and above.

I know it's not relevant to this Tier List, but Olivia's ability to gain XP without actually fighting is worth it's weight in gold on Lunatic difficulty due to the near impossiblity of effective grinding without DLC. If you're willing to spend twenty minutes at the end of Chapter 12 just dancing, then you can actually get a Lucina with solid enough base stats across the board to be usable on Lunatic.

It's worth even more gold in Lunatic +. If we ever make a Lunatic + Tier List Olivia's probably going to be top simply because of how she can bullshit her way to 20s and then seal change easily repeatedly for free with the only investment requried being about 20 minutes per map (and the price of seals to be fair, but the gold cost for 20 levels worth of stats is ludicriously good). I'm imagining that Fem Avatar will also have this point in their favor on Lunatic + since they can also gain access to the bullshit that is the (admittedly theroetical, i'm not sure if dancers can be danced) infinite repeated dance loop which doesn't even need a immobile boss map.And then you can just convoy the seals to your dancers and...yeaaah.

Edited February 8, 2013 by nyttyn

[Onestep]

The thing of it is though, FeMU is able to get 2 kids as well, and has access to the most powerful kid in the game. While Morgan will end up more powerful than MU in the end, how long will it take to get Morgan? After that how long will it take to to train him/her up to a level where s/he's as good as the MU? How long will it take for him/her to get better?

There's a simple numerics going on here. Pair a Female Avatar and Chrom, and you've got four characters with solid stats/bases, due to inheritance.

Abuse Olivia's ability to dance and pair her with Chrom, then pair a Male Avatar with a first gen with a linked child and you can get eight eventually.

Doing the same with a female Avatar is harder, because you can't double with Chrom... pretty much ever if you want Olivia. Even if you do, you're only getting Morgan from the second gen.

But then again, in the end it's seven overpowered characters vs eight overpowered characters, so the difference isn't THAT great.

Also, I prefer Aether over Rightful King. Rightful King requires you to have two or more %-based abilities on top of it before it really becomes worth it and there's other things I'd rather fill the skill slots with.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Onestep

[GinRei]

Incidentally what other points in Fem Avatar's favor am I missing? I'm pretty sure i'm overlooking something at this point

Well, if you think you'll be using a lot of female 2nd Gen children (like me), she produces a Male Morgan, who can support with all of them. Female Morgan can only support with siblings, Nah, and Noire.

[XeKr]

Sumia can fly and counter bows as a Dark Flier. Usually ORKO'ing on the spot. She also faces like 20 hit from them and doesnt get OHKO'd (even my terribly def screwed Sumia) if you pair her up with Chrom and theyre married. Lon'qu doesnt even compare. I found him pretty bad actually and terrible outclassed once Say'ri shows up.

iirc, many enemies lategame when forges show up have like 140 hit, and it's hard to get that much avoid without avoid skills. 40 Spd/30 Luck is only 75 avoid. Forged Rexcalibur also obliterates fliers. Axes against Lances is not fun early. Is her dodging really that good early on? I could be misremembering.

S support is also just 10 Avoid like C support, plus 1 or so more stats of Pair Up bonuses. It's not a drastic avoid boost.

I do think Sumia is better than Lon'qu, however. Gaius is also comparable combatwise. Early Silver/Killer Lance, plus being the first flier, are great too. I found Cordelia to not be that great, but I can see how she's comparable to Sumia. In general Str leads don't mean as much with ~70% Dual attacks at S support, more with Chrom support. Along the same lines, if mid tier gets cramped, you could separate out the high speed ones from the others. Doubling is way more important.

Just as a complete side note, Morgan will probably have to get her own tier above Veteran Avatar because she's just Vet Avatar ^2. Or vet Avatar ^2.5 if you decide to make her a Third Gen Kid with Ms Supar Spoiler. Although, like all kids, her stats will vary, she represents everything the Avatar stands for and even more.

The earlier and easier to get kids like Morgan/Lucina still only dominate half the game at best, and they're not so much superior to Say'ri, Tiki or other characters.

[PKL]

iirc, many enemies lategame when forges show up have like 140 hit, and it's hard to get that much avoid without avoid skills. 40 Spd/30 Luck is only 75 avoid. Forged Rexcalibur also obliterates fliers. Axes against Lances is not fun early. Is her dodging really that good early on? I could be misremembering.

S support is also just 10 Avoid like C support, plus 1 or so more stats of Pair Up bonuses. It's not a drastic avoid boost.

I do think Sumia is better than Lon'qu, however. Gaius is also comparable combatwise. Early Silver/Killer Lance, plus being the first flier, are great too. I found Cordelia to not be that great, but I can see how she's comparable to Sumia. In general Str leads don't mean as much with ~70% Dual attacks at S support, more with Chrom support. Along the same lines, if mid tier gets cramped, you could separate out the high speed ones from the others. Doubling is way more important.

Well, obviously not all game. She WAS threatened by like Ch22 Assasins with bows but generally her avo is just that good I find.

Cordelia's offense (good str, Galeforce later on, good spd and good def) quickly turns into monstrous and later its overkill. I find that rexcalibur and the like are usually useless against the peggies, because their res is so high that it will usually do like 33% of their hp or so. Cherche worries more about Rexcalibur and the like. The only problem I find with Frederick married Cordelia is honestly that she could potentially miss doubling faster bosses like yen'fay but you could just pair her up with Say'ri for that. Her problem is usually Armors that she obviously cant quite ORKO unless she's paired up with Hammer!Frederick or using a Silver Lance.

[XeKr]

Cordelia's offense (good str, Galeforce later on, good spd and good def) quickly turns into monstrous and later its overkill. I find that rexcalibur and the like are usually useless against the peggies, because their res is so high that it will usually do like 33% of their hp or so. Cherche worries more about Rexcalibur and the like. The only problem I find with Frederick married Cordelia is honestly that she could potentially miss doubling faster bosses like yen'fay but you could just pair her up with Say'ri for that. Her problem is usually Armors that she obviously cant quite ORKO unless she's paired up with Hammer!Frederick or using a Silver Lance.

Hmm, I found all the characters I used had good/great offense. Smart use of Pair Up/Rally and frequent Dual Attacks makes things very easy. Cordelia was actually my worst (relatively, she was still good) combat unit, despite being 3rd in kills overall next to Avatar/Chrom. That's probably because I promoted her early to try to get Galeforce earlier and for Sevara. Still, Cordelia doesn't seem that much better than other characters.

Rexcalibur has 30 mt, probably around 40 when forged. Cordelia has 8 res base, and just 35% growth. Enemies (maybe 20ish magic?) should easily 2hko. Other enemies frequently have 40+ att as well.

@Lord Raven: Just curious, if you don't like LTC arguments, or opportunity cost arguments, what is your metric and its implications? What makes a character better than another one? If it's something like overall utility, is it net vs. gross? Is there negative utility? Is Donnel better or worse than a hypothetical unit that joins in chapter 9 with 15+ Str/Skl/Spd/Def, gets exp like a level 6 unit, and 80%+ growths? I'm not going to push an argument now or if ever, but discussion seems all over the place and it would be helpful to have clarification regarding tiering metrics.

Edited February 8, 2013 by XeKr

[PuffPuff]

Gaius should go in Low (NeverUsed) tier. His defenses suck too much for the harder difficulty settings and that they never improve enough even with statboosters to make him a candidate worth using later in the game. Lunatic=No chance.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Katarina