The Lunatic Club

[XeKr]

I did my only Lunatic+ run with no grinding. I used various random things like Anna shops and event tiles as they appeared. I don't think I actually bought anything from Spotpass in my run. Though it was mostly just an Avatar/Anna and Lucina/Chrom charge with Galeforce and Rescue after a certain point, because it just got too tedious. >_>

You could probably have like a 20/10/5 Hero by Chapter 5 if buying from Spotpass is too "lame". And unless you make severe restrictions like banning Avatar, there's probably still a reliable strat out there, even with no self-healing. Something like Wyvern Avatar could probably slowly pick off enemies from the cliffs and kite around while having a bunch of Def and avoid. They can't all have Luna+, Hawkeye+, and Counter. And also don't all fly. Or Frederick and Avatar split the enemy attention, kiting in separate directions, etc.

Edited April 20, 2013 by XeKr

[darkkfan]

You could probably have like a 20/10/5 Hero by Chapter 5

...I'm sorry, what? How is this possible? I'm assuming the 2nd 10 is in the merc class, but that still seems high to me even if you haven't used anyone else but avatar at all (and the game pretty much forces you to use Fred).

Also, I am hearing you guys describe Luna+ as "tedious" or "ridiculous" after a certain point (around ch. 16), by this do you mean that it is challenging strategically (at least as much as the earlier chapters) or does it simply get monotonous to the point where it requires no strategy save avoiding counter?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Walhart

[XeKr]

Avatar can be level 14 by Chapter 3, probably like 18-20 by Chapter 4. iirc, Renown opens then, so reclass to Merc. You have Chapter 4 and Paralogue 1 to solo still and perhaps get promoted with Anna's help. Seems doable, though I haven't actually tried that exact progression myself.

Even if no Sol, an effectively level ~30 Avatar with Kellam probably still takes 0 damage against most things except Counter and Luna+ and you can still kite to limit your exposure to them each turn, particularly if a Wyvern. Also, +Hp Avatar would have like nearly 60 Hp or something ridiculous (though maybe harder to train in C1-3).

iirc, I didn't early reclass in my run, just went with a high level +Def Avatar, a somewhat trained Chrom, and Frederick. Probably wasn't as reliable of a strat as it could have been, however.

The lategame probably can be interesting if not Galeforce/Rescue chained or Nosferatu/Sol tanked. I didn't bother because of the aforementioned reasons I've been stating (tedious to look at all the enemy skills, etc).

EDIT: This was honestly pretty long ago, sometime after my first Lunatic run. Since, I've learned a lot more about the game mechanics. I think I might give Lunatic+ a more serious go sometime.

Edited April 20, 2013 by XeKr

[darkkfan]

I'm thinking of allowing Renown awards up to however many Renown points correspond to a completed standard Lunatic playthrough, while banning the use of non-deterministic, high-variance things like Anna shops and event-tile weapons.

I'm really confused as to why people in general like to ban anna shops but they allow the bonus box (IMO having Fred with at least 4 legendary weapons guaranteed and free in earlygame is pretty broken). Renown is another matter entirely (look at all those weapons and all that gold!).

At least Anna shops aren't reliable and they all cost money.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like unreliably broken (and I'm not willing to concede that Anna shops are even broken in the first place) is better than reliably broken (like the guaranteed bonuses from renown and bonus box).

EDIT: This was honestly pretty long ago, sometime after my first Lunatic run. Since, I've learned a lot more about the game mechanics. I think I might give Lunatic+ a more serious go sometime.

Wait so you wouldn't consider your first Luna+ no grind run to be "serious"? What would be "serious" then in your opinion? And why did you decide to log your Luna run instead of your Luna+ one? You, sir, are a mystery (inb4 someone responds to me saying "You, sir, are an asshole").

Just realized I've been picking on you a lot lately and I want to apologize for that (hell, that last paragraph sounded more like an interrogation even though I am genuinely curious as to the answers and I didn't mean for it to come across like that at all) . You seem to be taking it pretty well and that seems to be a valuable trait around here, so I commend you on that.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Walhart

[shadowofchaos]

When it comes to Lunatic+, I am COMPLETELY low tier.

Grinding all the way.

[Florete]

I'm really confused as to why people in general like to ban anna shops but they allow the bonus box (IMO having Fred with at least 4 legendary weapons guaranteed and free in earlygame is pretty broken). Renown is another matter entirely (look at all those weapons and all that gold!).

At least Anna shops aren't reliable and they all cost money.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like unreliably broken (and I'm not willing to concede that Anna shops are even broken in the first place) is better than reliably broken (like the guaranteed bonuses from renown and bonus box).

It's because Bonus Box and Renown aren't random, thus 100% reliable and repeatable. When you really think about it it isn't actually a big deal since Anna's shops at the times it might actually matter tend to have the same stuff, but that's the general reasoning.

I get the most confused when people don't allow the Bonus Box. That is 100% repeatable for everyone. At least with Renown you have to actually build it up by playing the game more than once or grinding. I mean, sure, you won't otherwise get weapons nearly that good for a long time, maybe not ever, but if those items were just dropped from normal enemies in Ch 4, I bet people wouldn't think twice about using them.

[darkkfan]

When it comes to Lunatic+, I am COMPLETELY low tier.

Grinding all the way.

Comparing your stats to my characters' post ch.5, you actually aren't that far ahead level-wise of where I was at this point (this would really depend on when you did paralogue 1). Your Virion looks a lot like my Miriel and aside from 3-4 extra levels on Sumia and Lon'Qu (not to mention my underused Avatar) and considering I probably used Fred and Chrom a bit more, your stats aren't too unreasonable, so don't worry about grinding a little.

It's because Bonus Box and Renown aren't random, thus 100% reliable and repeatable. When you really think about it it isn't actually a big deal since Anna's shops at the times it might actually matter tend to have the same stuff, but that's the general reasoning.

I get the most confused when people don't allow the Bonus Box. That is 100% repeatable for everyone. At least with Renown you have to actually build it up by playing the game more than once or grinding. I mean, sure, you won't otherwise get weapons nearly that good for a long time, maybe not ever, but if those items were just dropped from normal enemies in Ch 4, I bet people wouldn't think twice about using them.

Being repeatable sort of makes sense for walkthrough purposes, but it also takes more of the challenge out of the game. Again, having a 2% chance or whatever to get a "heroic" or "semi-legendary" weapon is a lot less powerful than a 100% chance to get 5 legendary weapons as soon as you have access to the world map.

Not trying to start an argument or anything here, I'm just curious about why people allow bonus box and renown and then say that Anna shops/event tiles are too broken (I mean, if you are allowing nostanking and you happen to pull up an Aversa's night I guess I can see that, but surely that's an exception).

Edited April 21, 2013 by Walhart

[Florete]

Being repeatable sort of makes sense for walkthrough purposes, but it also takes more of the challenge out of the game. Again, having a 2% chance or whatever to get a "heroic" or "semi-legendary" weapon is a lot less powerful than a 100% chance to get 5 legendary weapons as soon as you have access to the world map.

Not trying to start an argument or anything here, I'm just curious about why people allow bonus box and renown and then say that Anna shops/event tiles are too broken (I mean, if you are allowing nostanking and you happen to pull up an Aversa's night I guess I can see that, but surely that's an exception).

Edit: Dammit accidentally doubleposted instead of editing, please merge sorry.

Well, I do agree with you personally, I was just explaining the likely reasoning. My problem is that it makes it repeatable but inaccurate, as any player just playing by themself will get and use these things.

And it's actually 6 legendary weapons right now.

[darkkfan]

Well, I do agree with you personally, I was just explaining the likely reasoning. My problem is that it makes it repeatable but inaccurate, as any player just playing by themself will get and use these things.

And it's actually 6 legendary weapons right now.

No problem with explaining the reasoning, that's what I was looking for in the first place!

True, there is the problem that adding these restrictions isolates less hardcore players who are going to take any bonus the game gives them, but that is also true of Anna merchants (I realize I'm sort of preaching to the choir here so this isn't directed at you or anyone else specifically I'm just throwing it out there). Heck, I'm hardly a casual player and I'm still not hesitant to take every lucky break the RNG goddess gives me with regards to event tiles and world map merchants.

Btw: That was a pretty fast response with that merge button. Thanks, and sorry about that.

[XeKr]

I'm really confused as to why people in general like to ban anna shops but they allow the bonus box (IMO having Fred with at least 4 legendary weapons guaranteed and free in earlygame is pretty broken). Renown is another matter entirely (look at all those weapons and all that gold!).

At least Anna shops aren't reliable and they all cost money.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like unreliably broken (and I'm not willing to concede that Anna shops are even broken in the first place) is better than reliably broken (like the guaranteed bonuses from renown and bonus box).

Wait so you wouldn't consider your first Luna+ no grind run to be "serious"? What would be "serious" then in your opinion? And why did you decide to log your Luna run instead of your Luna+ one? You, sir, are a mystery (inb4 someone responds to me saying "You, sir, are an asshole").

Just realized I've been picking on you a lot lately and I want to apologize for that (hell, that last paragraph sounded more like an interrogation even though I am genuinely curious as to the answers and I didn't mean for it to come across like that at all) . You seem to be taking it pretty well and that seems to be a valuable trait around here, so I commend you on that.

The randomness has a lot to do with it when it comes to Anna shops. You could get lucky and promoted early, by Chapter 4 or 5, or else you'd have to wait until Chapter 8. It's really not that broken though, I agree.

I don't consider my Lunatic+ run that serious because it was essentially a duo and I Galeforce+Rescue-chained a lot of the latter half with little attention to reliability, skipping enemy phases and animations and such. It just wasn't that fun. My usual playstyle is more slow-paced, uses a much larger team, and with animations on, since I rather like them in this game.

My next run after No Second Seal might be a Lunatic+ run. Maybe RNG'd team or "pick my units" style to encourage some character diversity. That's probably a long way off though. >_>

And discussion like this is both encouraging and interesting, so everything's good there. ^_^

[darkkfan]

The randomness has a lot to do with it when it comes to Anna shops. You could get lucky and promoted early, by Chapter 4 or 5, or else you'd have to wait until Chapter 8. It's really not that broken though, I agree.

I don't consider my Lunatic+ run that serious because it was essentially a duo and I Galeforce+Rescue-chained a lot of the latter half with little attention to reliability, skipping enemy phases and animations and such. It just wasn't that fun. My usual playstyle is more slow-paced, uses a much larger team, and with animations on, since I rather like them in this game.

Fair enough, I have a similar playstyle and apparently a similar writing style too, but that doesn't make it any less of an accomplishment for you and Tenshi to have beat Luna+ without grinding.

My next run after No Second Seal might be a Lunatic+ run. Maybe RNG'd team or "pick my units" style to encourage some character diversity. That's probably a long way off though. >_>

And discussion like this is both encouraging and interesting, so everything's good there. ^_^

Wow, I bet a PMU would be interesting, but you'd have to put some supervision in place to ensure that you don't get screwed with a bunch of terrible units (as seems to be the trend with PMUs nowadays). I mean, sure everyone is usable to some extent but you wouldn't want to get stuck with a whole team of growth units with no immediate usefulness (Ricken, Nowi, and Gaius come to mind).

[Redwall]

Yes, Fred with Tyrfing/Astra/whatever is pretty OP, which is why I wasn't planning on using the legendary weapons. My plan was to start with Renown up to the thirty-ish maps corresponding to a completed playthrough: Glass Sword through Energy Drop or so, inclusive, all of which are helpful but not game-breaking.

Like Red Fox of Fire mentioned, reproducibility appeals to folks like me, especially since during my first attempt of Lunatic+, it took a while for a Master Seal to finally appear. Although I agree that neither Anna shops nor event-tile weapons are broken (in the sense that they just allow you to mow through the game without thinking), their inherent variance will be expressed quite strongly early in the game, when the sample size of encountered Anna shops and event-tile weapons is small. As the number of Anna shops and event-tile weapons encountered in a playthrough increases, the odds of the player acquiring a strictly representative set of items will increase, but it's never going to be 100% unless you just never stop playing.

Honestly, as old-fashioned as I am, I'm not too keen on allowing things like Renown...but hey, it's Lunatic+, all's fair in love and war, etc.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

If stacking levels on the Avatar, a Second Seal is just as good, if not better than a Master Seal. On my run, I didn't get to buy a Master Seal until right before chapter 8 and it didn't matter. I just used the seal to reset Avatar's level to 1 when she hit 20. Thanks to the relatively high tier 1 stat caps, the extra levels at the tier 1 speed allowed her to become rather ridiculous.

[Interceptor]

What's the BFD with the free legendaries? They aren't available until after the earlygame chapter are already over, and are too high rank for any of the growth units to use right away. Is it really a problem that Frederick actually has good weapons after Ch4? I mean, he already has a Silver Lance, is it the end of the world if he also has Luna?

EDIT: incidentally, I have a 20/12.75 Tactician/Merc Avatar after Chapter 5. This with giving as many kill as possible earlygame, Second Sealing at the start of Paralogue 1, and basically ignoring everyone except a little bit of Chrom charity training. Chrom is 6.24, Frederick is 6.89. Nobody else has even leveled up other than Lissa.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Interceptor

[Redwall]

Yeah, I guess now that I think about it, the only one of the six Bonus Box weapons that looks unique is Vengeance, but it's a non-factor for a while since Fred isn't going to get to B axes until Ch 8 or so.

[Othin]

The bonus box weapons basically the same as getting any other item after a certain point in the story. I don't see any reason to ban them. On the other hand, the Anna shops can be seriously abused with stalling real-time, which is a hassle yet randomly effective. Personally, I use them when they're there, but for any competitive of "hardcore" purposes, I can see plenty of cause for banning them.

[Tango]

I thought Lunatic mode would be easy since you can grind in FE13, but it's pretty challenging! Chapter 3 is giving me a hell of a time because I want to keep all of my units alive, even if I'm never going to use them. I'm also making it harder for myself by keeping Chrom away from women; I want him to marry Olivia.

So far, the RNG hates me. I kept resetting on Chapter 2 because my units kept dying. The one time I actually survived, the tactician was getting atrocious stat gains, so I had to try again.

[darkkfan]

Although I agree that neither Anna shops nor event-tile weapons are broken (in the sense that they just allow you to mow through the game without thinking), their inherent variance will be expressed quite strongly early in the game, when the sample size of encountered Anna shops and event-tile weapons is small. As the number of Anna shops and event-tile weapons encountered in a playthrough increases, the odds of the player acquiring a strictly representative set of items will increase, but it's never going to be 100% unless you just never stop playing.

This is probably the best explanation of it that I've seen so far. Like I said, admittedly banning these things would make it closer to 100% repeatable, but that would mean that not only would you have to play with little or no variance (which is what gives a playthrough its customization IMO), but anyone who reads and follows a 100% repeatable walkthrough (assuming that's why you wanted it to be repeatable in the first place) would have to follow you step-by step, and where's the fun in that?

What's the BFD with the free legendaries? They aren't available until after the earlygame chapter are already over, and are too high rank for any of the growth units to use right away. Is it really a problem that Frederick actually has good weapons after Ch4? I mean, he already has a Silver Lance, is it the end of the world if he also has Luna?

Well, just considering the weapons that have been released so far, that's 3 weapons that Fred can use in his base class that are all better than the silver lance. Not only does that provide you with no incentive to conserve the silver lance, but it further creates a disparity between Fred and everyone else because he can use 3 extremely powerful weapons that no one else will be able to use for a while.

Yeah, I guess now that I think about it, the only one of the six Bonus Box weapons that looks unique is Vengeance, but it's a non-factor for a while since Fred isn't going to get to B axes until Ch 8 or so.

My Fred had B rank in everything between Chapter 4 and Chapter 5. Discipline just helps Fred to get access to these weapons even sooner in the game.

The bonus box weapons basically the same as getting any other item after a certain point in the story. I don't see any reason to ban them. On the other hand, the Anna shops can be seriously abused with stalling real-time, which is a hassle yet randomly effective. Personally, I use them when they're there, but for any competitive of "hardcore" purposes, I can see plenty of cause for banning them.

After a certain point in the story, true, the bonus box weapons aren't that great. Maybe they shouldn't be banned after a certain point (say chapter 15 or so), but they are too OP in earlygame.

I'd even say it is fair to allow the Tyrfing to get past Ch.5, but aside from that the bonus box items aren't necessary (i know that this can be said about pretty much anything but still) and the fact that they wouldn't be normally obtainable until near endgame I think is an indication that they were not intended for earlygame use.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Walhart

[Galenforcer]

I thought Lunatic mode would be easy since you can grind in FE13, but it's pretty challenging! Chapter 3 is giving me a hell of a time because I want to keep all of my units alive, even if I'm never going to use them. I'm also making it harder for myself by keeping Chrom away from women; I want him to marry Olivia.

Chapter 3 is pretty easy by Lunatic standards. Just Pair Up Kellam with Frederick and have him chuck the Javelin at the west group. You can quickly kill them all before the east side catches up.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Just to make sure, the wireless is unlocked after chapter 4 right?

If only there is a way to consistently get Finn Lance for chapter 2.....

[Interceptor]

Well, just considering the weapons that have been released so far, that's 3 weapons that Fred can use in his base class that are all better than the silver lance. Not only does that provide you with no incentive to conserve the silver lance, but it further creates a disparity between Fred and everyone else because he can use 3 extremely powerful weapons that no one else will be able to use for a while.

That's just a description of what happens when the weapons are available. Why is it a problem that Frederick becomes a more useful unit? He's already a ticking time bomb because of the inevitable arrival of promoted enemies, and any kills that you feed him early are going to come at the cost of kills for your growth units.

Basically I don't understand the imperative for people to avoid bonus items in Lunatic+, a mode that's already 1) super-random, and 2) cheats like a mother f'n bastard. You have a pretty statline at the end, but the hidden cost is resetting the game a bajillion times due to playing with a handicap.

The bonus box weapons basically the same as getting any other item after a certain point in the story. I don't see any reason to ban them. On the other hand, the Anna shops can be seriously abused with stalling real-time, which is a hassle yet randomly effective. Personally, I use them when they're there, but for any competitive of "hardcore" purposes, I can see plenty of cause for banning them.

What is the problem with Anna shops? She doesn't give you the items for free, they cost money, which is a limited resource. The stuff that's available early isn't even necessarily amazing. I feel the same way about the Spotpass teams. It's not like Lyn just hands you a Levin Sword with a smile and a thumbs-up; it costs 1600G, no discounts.

There's an argument for some of the really high-tier Renown stuff, Gradivus+ perhaps, but none of those items are really reasonable in the first place.

[Elieson]

What's the problem with Anna shops! One Playthrough might only sell Derp things like Iron Axe and Wyrmslayer, while others sell Second Seal and Speedwings. It's entirely too unreliable to base factual data off of

[darkkfan]

That's just a description of what happens when the weapons are available. Why is it a problem that Frederick becomes a more useful unit? He's already a ticking time bomb because of the inevitable arrival of promoted enemies, and any kills that you feed him early are going to come at the cost of kills for your growth units.

Basically I don't understand the imperative for people to avoid bonus items in Lunatic+, a mode that's already 1) super-random, and 2) cheats like a mother f'n bastard. You have a pretty statline at the end, but the hidden cost is resetting the game a bajillion times due to playing with a handicap.

It seems like we are actually agreeing here. We both agree that bonus box items consistently make the game less challenging. Some people would rather take advantage of these because Luna+ is so unfair. I choose not to. It's that simple.

Again, I say "consistently" because Anna shops may make it easier but at least don't do so consistently which is a plus for them IMO.

What is the problem with Anna shops? She doesn't give you the items for free, they cost money, which is a limited resource. The stuff that's available early isn't even necessarily amazing. I feel the same way about the Spotpass teams. It's not like Lyn just hands you a Levin Sword with a smile and a thumbs-up; it costs 1600G, no discounts.

Exactly, the only reason I have a problem with spotpass items is because you can essentially get whatever you want with enough money. Anna shops, on the other hand, are reasonably limited (that is, you can't spawn a brave sword on the ch.1 map space for example) and require some luck to obtain, which in my mind makes it a good candidate to counteract the "luck" that results when the RNG decides to spawn 60% or more of the enemies with counter. Granted, they can be abused if you purposely time stall, but if you (as I did) choose not to deliberately time-stall, there is nothing wrong with using Anna shops. The same thing goes for Barracks.

It's entirely too unreliable to base factual data off of

But, since they aren't really too broken (at least in my opinion), the differences in playthrough as a result of this variance can be somewhat easily compensated for. I mean, let's face it, no run (except maybe 0% growths and I'm not even sure of that) in any FE game is going to be 100% RNG-free. Besides, not everyone is playing to "base factual data off of".

[Interceptor]

It seems like we are actually agreeing here. We both agree that bonus box items consistently make the game less challenging. Some people would rather take advantage of these because Luna+ is so unfair. I choose not to. It's that simple.

If people have their own self-imposed challenges, that's fine, but I don't care to talk about them. My interest in this topic concerns the relative usefulness of the bonus stuff in Lunatic+.

In other words, if people are going to claim that such and such is OP, I want to see the defense for that statement. I don't buy the argument for the legendary bonus box items: can't use them early, and the first person that they help is someone you don't want to train in the first place. Anna merchants and Spotpass both provide gear that you must pay for with limited funds (that Brave Sword carries a 2.5x price premium over Steel). Renown doesn't get silly until the high end: a typical value with 1-2 clears prior to Lunatic+ won't make a huge difference.

I personally like the Spotpass team item sales in particular for Lunatic+, since they let you actually expand (Ashera forbid) your strategic options.

[darkkfan]

Anna merchants and Spotpass both provide gear that you must pay for with limited funds (that Brave Sword carries a 2.5x price premium over Steel). Renown doesn't get silly until the high end: a typical value with 1-2 clears prior to Lunatic+ won't make a huge difference.

I personally like the Spotpass team item sales in particular for Lunatic+, since they let you actually expand (Ashera forbid) your strategic options.

First off, I totally agree about Anna merchants, that's pretty much the same argument I use on anti-Anna supporters. I don't really feel that strongly about the spotpass items but whatever.

I don't buy the argument for the legendary bonus box items: can't use them early

Idk about you, but I definitely consider chapter 4 to be "early"