The Lunatic Club

[Othin]

Anna merchants are mainly a factor because of Master Seals, since the number of those you buy drastically affects how fast you can promote your team.

[Interceptor]

Idk

Selective quoting can get you into trouble.

Anna merchants are mainly a factor because of Master Seals, since the number of those you buy drastically affects how fast you can promote your team.

Master Seals are a double-edged sword. Sure the promotion bonuses are nice, but not only do they cost 2500G to buy, but now you get EXP like a level 21+ unit. I feel the downsides sufficiently temper the upside.

[Missile]

Finally I got the game and started a lunatic file (I want to do a no reclass run), My Unit has 9 at speed but 15 def with Def + Luck - at level 10 on chapter 5, am I screwed ? Where is the first speedwing ?

(On the other hand, Chrom is pretty blessed lvl 9 and 13 speed, 12 def, 13 str, 6 res and 27 HP)

[Shadow Mir]

The first speedwing isn't until chapter 11, and it's on an enemy reinforcement (specifically, a Hero that spawns at the northwest corner of the map).

Edited April 22, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Meteor]

So I managed to read through this entire thread over the weekend, and I just wanted to give a quick "thank you!" to everyone who has contributed so far to this awesome resource. I am excited to continue my own run, and it's encouraging to see that pretty much every character has a chance to be viable outside of the first few chapters. I'm sure I'll have some questions down the road. :)

[Interceptor]

Is a Bow Knight sneaky-good on Lunatic+?

I was looking for a way to get Lon'qu up to speed on my run, so I forked my save file to set up a training ground for him on Paralogue 2 (the one with Anna and the Physic village), and see how it went. Originally I was going to just have Avatar sit in a forest and tank everything unequipped (level 20/12 Tactician/Mercenary, DEF is over 9000) to avoid getting gibbed by Counter, but then clearing would be problematic if I couldn't peel enemies off effectively.

So I grabbed a Master Seal from a local Anna, promoted to Bow Knight, tossed Avatar a Bronze Bow + Frederick partner, and sat on a forest. Archers and Mages had no chance, they died on counter. This left a cloud of barbarians, who couldn't hurt Avatar unless they spawned Hawkeye/Luna+ (there was one; I just pre-emptively shot him on Player Phase). Peeling them one-by-one was no issue; got Lon'qu 4.66 levels, Not Bad™. Avatar got to 2.47 and most of the way to D Bows in the process, because Avatar. It's worth noting that this map was absolutely lousy with Counter barbs: easily three out of every four.

I may not keep the fork, since Ch6 is kind of hard with only three real combat units, but I thought it was sort of interesting to have a unit that could basically ignore every Counter enemy on the map. Swords as a secondary weapon isn't terrible. Makes me wonder about Warrior, too.

[Elieson]

Master Seals are a double-edged sword. Sure the promotion bonuses are nice, but not only do they cost 2500G to buy, but now you get EXP like a level 21+ unit. I feel the downsides sufficiently temper the upside.

Second seals and master seals give say, early access to ultra skills like Ignis and Sol, when they wouldn't normally be accessible. Skills like that drastically improve gameplay

[Interceptor]

Second seals and master seals give say, early access to ultra skills like Ignis and Sol, when they wouldn't normally be accessible. Skills like that drastically improve gameplay

I'm assuming that since you ignored the fact the early promoting wrecks your EXP gain, and cost a lot of your earlygame gold, that you're conceding those points. Nobody said that Seals don't help: the issue is that they are a drag on your resources if you use them. While it's nice to run around and lollerskates things with Ignis/Sol, you have to 1) buy a Seal, 2) gain four levels; in the end, you get one in Ch8, and they are freely buyable after Ch12 (and common drops thereafter).

[PKL]

theres so much gold in this game though. Why would buying a lone seal be an issue?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I may not keep the fork, since Ch6 is kind of hard with only three real combat units, but I thought it was sort of interesting to have a unit that could basically ignore every Counter enemy on the map. Swords as a secondary weapon isn't terrible. Makes me wonder about Warrior, too.

If you have no issues delaying a map (although bows at least have some enemy phase that lets it move a bit faster than an unequipped tank), and it's a super unit it should at least be feasible until toward the end of mid-game where that low Def cap starts to catch up to the unit (and with Hit+20 being given to everyone and their mother, dodging attacks becomes rather unfeasible). As for Warrior, it'd probably do a bit better due to the higher Def (and even Res) cap.

theres so much gold in this game though. Why would buying a lone seal be an issue?

It's an issue early game, which is the point at which getting another seal can make a significant difference.

[Interceptor]

There is a lot of gold available in this game... once you get into midgame, that is. Prior to when Master Seals are buyable from the Armorer, not so much. Especially true if you go for a super-early Seal, before the Bullion Storm begins.

edit: Say'ried

Edited April 22, 2013 by Interceptor

[Missile]

My MU has still 9 speed at lvl 12, pls kill me ._.

[PKL]

Ive never had gold issues in earlygame...and Im known to forge, spam tonics and shit.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Peekayell

[Florete]

There is a lot of gold available in this game... once you get into midgame, that is. Prior to when Master Seals are buyable from the Armorer, not so much. Especially true if you go for a super-early Seal, before the Bullion Storm begins.

edit: Say'ried

I can atest to this. Even with the Large Bullion from Renown, I find myself short on cash early on since I tend to buy Master and Second Seals when they show up in Anna shops. It's probably the reason I don't forge very often, since making good forges costs a lot of money. Tonics are cheap individually, but in Lunatic and Luna+ where you want to stock on them, the price quickly adds up.

EDIT: I won't claim to be the best with my money, but what happens happens.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

If you have no issues delaying a map (although bows at least have some enemy phase that lets it move a bit faster than an unequipped tank), and it's a super unit it should at least be feasible until toward the end of mid-game where that low Def cap starts to catch up to the unit (and with Hit+20 being given to everyone and their mother, dodging attacks becomes rather unfeasible). As for Warrior, it'd probably do a bit better due to the higher Def (and even Res) cap.

I cannot even wrap my brain around the absurdity of doing an LTC Lunatic+ run. I'll happily take 50 turns to beat a chapter if it's warranted, and still sleep like a newborn.

Perfectly fine if the thing peters out during Valm, since one would hope that there's a real team around Avatar by then. It can probably be kept afloat a little bit longer with a DEF support and tonics. Warrior (and even Sniper, I guess) are good reclass options with higher DEF caps to extend party-time. My avatar happens to be +DEF/-SKL, so the caps are a little better.

I like the concept of a Warrior with Counter (which should be showing up at just the right time) being able to leverage some of the spill-over damage into offense when they are face-tanking.

My MU has still 9 speed at lvl 12, pls kill me ._.

Sounds like time for a Lord/Myrmidon bailout button, and a constant IV of SPD tonics.

[Missile]

I think I'll restart, being mag and spd screwed isn't really funny :/

Edit : Lucky me, A merchant sells a Hammerne and a Speedwing, I don't need to restart now !

Edited April 23, 2013 by Missile

[Interceptor]

^ Anna comes through, as usual.

Lunatic+ update for anyone interested: I managed to power through Chapter 6 by using a somewhat unconventional strategy. Since only Avatar and Fred have the ability to take more than a couple hits, there's no way to avoid getting over-run. So I had FredxChrom hold the LHS as long as possible (he can ORKO a lot with Tonic, Chrom support, and a Hand Axe, plus they can recruit Gaius), and Avatar went head-hunting for Thieves, since they are the only units that can open the door to get to Emm.

Once it started getting Real™, I had Lissa Rescue Avatar into the Alamo Room, which I pre-packed full of garbage units (high RES ones against the walls, due to Nosferatu), in order to prevent enemies with Pass from getting inside. I was going to have Marth go there too, but she died bravely fighting outside. The entrance is only one space wide once the doors are secured, so I had Avatar woman-mode the gap, whittling down the crowd until it was safe to get some additional offense from Fred and Lon'qu.

It might be on the top ten list of dumbest things I've ever done in a Fire Emblem game, but you can't argue with the results.

Sticking with the Bow Knight thing for now. I got Lon'qu to level 15 by the end of Chapter 7 (desert was very simple), and I am thinking about making him an Assassin to secure another bow user. The turnaround is kind of hilarious, since if a map spawns with 90% Counter enemies, they are super-easy, as it means they can only have one dangerous skill.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Interceptor

[Othin]

Yeah, I'm curious if people particularly upset with Counter just aren't using enough ranged attacks. Virion is a beast.

[Missile]

Oh yeah. Besides MU, Chrom (already level 13 Oo) and Lon'qu, which unit is cool in Luna ? There are Anna and Libra who gain sexy lunatic bonus and what about Cordelia and Tharja ? Cordelia has decent bases and can use staff and rally speed early and Tharja (without Nosferatu) has some interesting skills and an decent durability, that should be useful...

And maybe I will train Vaike until level 10 in order to promote him and get an excellent pair up partner for Lon'qu.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, I'm curious if people particularly upset with Counter just aren't using enough ranged attacks. Virion is a beast.

I'm starting to become a believer, honestly. Counter enemies are completely toothless if you have a bow, and if I have two bow users that can stand side-by-side, you can't even box them in. Warrior has Counter/Axes, Assassin has Lethality/Pass, Bow Knight has... convenience, and Archer/Sniper have Longbow access and crazy good HIT.

I'm regretting not training Virion, but it might not be too scary to get him going in the next few chapters and see what happens. I want a Galeforce unit, so perhaps I'll pair him with Cordelia. At least Lon'qu would be a serviceable replacement bow user; he's currently level 19 and eligible for promotion if I so choose.

Oh, and I had a nice surprise during Paralogue 3: the Blessed Bow. Normally never even bother to acquire it, but it's completely hilarious on my Bow Knight Avatar that has Armsthrift and 30+ Paired-Up LCK. The 10 HP auto-heal is nice for surviving the bumps and bruises of tanking a bunch of 1-range guys, 11mt is pretty nice, and it's not breaking any time soon (the Bronze Bow that took Avatar almost all the way to B-rank, still has 20 uses left on it).

Oh yeah. Besides MU, Chrom (already level 13 Oo) and Lon'qu, which unit is cool in Luna ? There are Anna and Libra who gain sexy lunatic bonus and what about Cordelia and Tharja ? Cordelia has decent bases and can use staff and rally speed early and Tharja (without Nosferatu) has some interesting skills and an decent durability, that should be useful...

And maybe I will train Vaike until level 10 in order to promote him and get an excellent pair up partner for Lon'qu.

For vanilla Lunatic, the super-unit rule applies. Anyone who can ORKO everything and never die is a good unit. That's why the top units tend to be Avatar, Nosferatu users, Manaketes, etc. Things like strong fliers are helpful, but when you get down to it, Lunatic is beaten by being really good at killing the hell out of things.

[Elieson]

I still don't see how a unit like Virion is getting high mileage when he gets doubled/ORKO'd at base and you might miiiiiight have 2 units that can temporarily shield

[Interceptor]

I still don't see how a unit like Virion is getting high mileage when he gets doubled/ORKO'd at base and you might miiiiiight have 2 units that can temporarily shield

He's clearly going to be limited to just weakening things early on, but he's completely trainable in a babysitting situation once you get past that stage of the game. You have to be a little bit choosier about your targets, but I managed to train Lon'qu (who gets eaten alive by Counter), so it's not impossible.

[Vorena]

Ive never had gold issues in earlygame...and Im known to forge, spam tonics and shit.

When do you start spamming? From what I recall, you are at a fixed 5000 gold amount until chapter5. By which time you will have gone through 5 chapters +1 paralogue?

So unless you are selling tile weapons, you do not have more than what?... 8000 in assets?

[darkkfan]

When do you start spamming? From what I recall, you are at a fixed 5000 gold amount until chapter5. By which time you will have gone through 5 chapters +1 paralogue?

So unless you are selling tile weapons, you do not have more than what?... 8000 in assets?

Yeah, but tonics are actually really cheap so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Selective quoting can get you into trouble.

What?

I'm assuming that since you ignored the fact the early promoting wrecks your EXP gain, and cost a lot of your earlygame gold, that you're conceding those points. Nobody said that Seals don't help: the issue is that they are a drag on your resources if you use them. While it's nice to run around and lollerskates things with Ignis/Sol, you have to 1) buy a Seal, 2) gain four levels; in the end, you get one in Ch8, and they are freely buyable after Ch12 (and common drops thereafter).

It's an issue early game, which is the point at which getting another seal can make a significant difference.

^this

He's clearly going to be limited to just weakening things early on, but he's completely trainable in a babysitting situation once you get past that stage of the game. You have to be a little bit choosier about your targets, but I managed to train Lon'qu (who gets eaten alive by Counter), so it's not impossible.

Lon'Qu is actually really easy to train even on Luna+ because every axe user without hawkeye still misses him. Sure, counter is a nuisance as it is with anyone else, but the low damage Lon'Qu does to high defense enemies like knights and cavs actually helps him in this case. The only real problem is getting him strength tonics, pair up bonuses etc. to make sure he can 2HKO counter fighters and barbarians.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Walhart

[Interceptor]

Yeah, but tonics are actually really cheap so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Unless you consider getting locked out of tonics by a Skrimish to be a problem (I do, because Lunatic+ skirmishes quickly become effectively impossible). The possibility usually means you want to stock up, which isn't cheap early.

What?

Precisely.

Lon'Qu is actually really easy to train even on Luna+ because every axe user without hawkeye still misses him. Sure, counter is a nuisance as it is with anyone else, but the low damage Lon'Qu does to high defense enemies like knights and cavs actually helps him in this case. The only real problem is getting him strength tonics, pair up bonuses etc. to make sure he can 2HKO counter fighters and barbarians.

I don't remember saying that it was difficult. The point was that if training a 1-range locked unit is feasible (that's Lon'qu in this example), it's surely not a problem for a 2-range unit that can fire over someone's head and/or not even worry about Counter in the first place. Virion's only big disadvantage is getting ORKO'ed early. As long as you can set up training scenarios to get him out of that, it's no issue.

Incidentally, I wasn't able to train him in Ch9, the pace of the chapter is too manic with the wyvern reinforcements. Paralogue 4 isn't looking great either, due to the vulnerable starting positions and the need to grab Anna quickly.

But in positive news, Assassin Lon'qu is a total badass. He can't take too many hits yet, but he's getting there (Nowi support), and is already ORKO on ordinary targets with a Bronze Bow, to say nothing of what he can do with Swords.