Enemies spawn

[Florete]

From this topic I even knew to expect some retarded Pegasus reinforcements on Ch 16 and still ended up with a dead Cordelia despite making such preparations as pairing Olivia up and fully healing anyone near the sides of the map. But luckily (kind of?), a Hero crit landed me a dead Tharja on the same turn anyway.

Reinforcements were mentioned in this one, but I do remember that the Ch 14 ones weren't warned at all (and one of those trios spawns pretty near your ship in a place that has basically been safe the whole time) and I recall at least one chapter before that not warning of reinforcements. I also recently finished Paralogue 12 and although none of them killed me, there was no warning of reinforcements coming except for the existence of stair tiles. Just to make the point that the reinforcements are not always warned ahead of time.

[Constable Reggie]

Have you perhaps thought that some of these "behind you" reinforcements are there to prevent going too slow? And I didnt bypass all the reinforcements, it was just that particular chapter. I stated in another post that I would often take precaution in my first run and would block forts with some units, sometimes stairs.

That's ridiculous. The game is not expecting me to be the chapters in 3-5 turns.

And then enemies start spawning every turn from the clearly marked spots where enemies started from in the first place. If you don't have the wits to figure out what that means, you don't belong on Hard Mode.

No they don't. Where are these "clearly marked spots" you talk of? Because I don't consider right behind you (in 3 turns), or right next to you (in 5 turns and these include forged silver bows), instead of even coming from the forts, with no indications, "clearly marked" spots.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[shadykid]

No they don't. Where are these "clearly marked spots" you talk of? Because I don't consider right behind you (in 3 turns), or right next to you (in 5 turns and these include forged silver bows), instead of even coming from the forts, with no indications, "clearly marked" spots.

er, to be fair, the final chapter's reinforcement spots are incredibly obvious

[Constable Reggie]

I was referring to chapter 25. I think Final is totally fine.

[FlawedMortal]

In an actual battle situation, I can envision holding reserves back until an enemy has over-extended themselves to route the main force. The Reserves then enter the field, fresh, and able to strike at the enemy's weak-points. The only reason you can't do that, is you don't have an army at your disposal during battle.

My reaction to this mechanic is, move cautiously and always be ready for a surprise attack. After getting over my irritation, I figured it was a good way to force players into bettering their tactics. Or grinding until everyone is so OP that ambushes really aren't that much of a threat. And from experience in FE 7,8,9 I know to keep my vulnerable units away from fortresses, and stairs, and the edges of an open map. And if I forget, then I just reset and try again, chastised for my lack of care. Its no different than making a mistake, putting a unit in a vulnerable position in order to kill an enemy, its just that the latter is easier to avoid. And besides, I'm pretty sure that on Normal enemy reinforcements don't move after they appear. They move next turn. So if Reinforcements bother you that much, play on normal. And you don't need to position units to block every possible reinforcement point on a map. That is either outright impossible or spreads you too thin to complete the battle. Choose those points likely to spawn enemies, where they are most likely to do the most damage to you, and block those points. If you play conservatively, you should be able to handle a handful of crucial reinforcement points, and be able to handle the rest without trouble. And I've never noticed a battle that included Reinforcements just for the hell of it. (I've never played on a Lunatic difficulty though...), but in my experience, there's always some clue that you can expect enemy reinforcements. It might not be a Boss calling for reinforcements, or even mentioning them, but Overconfidence, Cockiness, Smugness, are usually good indicators that its a possibility. Also, in most games, at least in the first half or so you lead/command a small elite strike-force. You capture strategic positions being held by entire Garrisons or defend them from an enemy Assault. ~20 enemy units can't be all of them. That and, it takes time to mobilize everyone, especially if they have staggered sleeping shifts.

I appreciate that the game incorporates the unexpected and unknowable (for blind/first runs), because any Tactician should know to expect the unexpected, no matter how detailed a plan is, how many contingencies it has, there is always something that can and most likely will go wrong. I forces us to think like MU. And seriously the same thing happens to MU in ch9. The mission plan was perfect (as in the one the character designed, not the tactics the player used...) and the only reason that there wasn't a happy ending (aside from the point that it would shorten or derail the plot) was because monsters came out of nowhere and helped the enemy. They had never shown an inclination to do anything but kill humans, so how could MU have known they would save his enemies at the most crucial moment in his plan? And does MU complain or whine? No MU resolves to become better, and learn this lesson, so MU never fails this badly again.

I like how this more or less enemy reinforcements without warning keeps me on my toes, it puts me more in MU's frame of mind. And I begin to identify more with him/her.

Again, if you don't like this mechanic there are ways to limit it. 1. Play on normal, they seem to spend their action just entering the map. 2. Grind until your weakest unit can handle an Ambush by the enemy and hold out for 1 phase. Then you can double or switch them, and focus on the new enemies. (By grinding until the weakest is badass, I don't mean take your weakest [Lissa/Maribelle] and make them your best. Grind everyone you're going to be using, until they can ALL handle such an ambush. Including your weakest. They might even be able to kill some of the enemies...)

If you don't like normal (or casual for that matter), and hate grinding, then either put down the game and pick up something else, or deal with the game mechanics. Complaining isn't going to do anything but annoy other people who don't agree with you. And it is an innate part of what makes the game what it is. So if it ruins the game for you, don't play said ruined game. If you feel so strongly, send a letter to Nintendo with your grievances. Someone might take note.

[Constable Reggie]

Again, the problem isn't that ambush spawning is inherently bad. It's fantastically used when used correctly, which is most of the time in this game. The problem is that at few points the ambush spawning just feels blatantly ridiculous, with no possible way to predict, anticipate, or prepare for it, and the fact that the game's shown to be using ambush spawning so well the rest of the game just rubs salt into the wound.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[NeonZ]

I also recently finished Paralogue 12 and although none of them killed me, there was no warning of reinforcements coming except for the existence of stair tiles. Just to make the point that the reinforcements are not always warned ahead of time.

I thought that in the first place, but, if you look at the script again, the boss explicitly calls for more troops to head out right in the beginning - meanwhile, none of his actual troops start moving until you're in range, so, that likely was meant to be the reinforcement warning.

[Dark Sage]

FE13 enemy spawns can't nearly be as bad as FE6's wyvern ambushses or FE12's chapter 3 and lategame troll ambush spawns.

[Lord Raven]

Chapter 25 can be ended in 5-6 turns even if you're playing casually (if this is hard mode). And even then, the only reinforcements that surprised me came from right near Aversa after like 12 or 13 turns (which is actually pretty ridiculous). Most of the spawns in Chapter 25 occur progressively towards the end of the map too (first two or three waves are from the bottom, the next are from the lower sides, the next are from the upper sides, and the next are from right next to Aversa herself), so it is pretty much a subtle cue that you should be hurrying up and they don't spawn out of some random stairs. Ideally, your whole team should be at the point or way past the point they are spawning (and by the time the near-Aversa reinforcements spawn you should have killed her already).

As for the rest, it's a trial-and-error thing and FE is sort of a trial-and-error game at points. If you can't get over that then find another game to play, because they are not as ridiculous as you make it seem.

[Silver Lightning]

I just played through Chapter 25 for the first time today, and yeah, by the time the random reinforcements at the bottom of the map started spawning and charging, I was already at the top of the map 1HKOing Aversa. Normally I usually wait and take out any reinforcements for extra exp, but Naga pretty clearly stated that they wouldn't stop coming so I just made a break for Aversa and finshed it; couldn't have taken more than 6 turns.

[Constable Reggie]

FE13 enemy spawns can't nearly be as bad as FE6's wyvern ambushses or FE12's chapter 3 and lategame troll ambush spawns.

You could argue that Fe12's spawning methods are wonderfully crafted to be cognizant of the player's actions (most of the spawns are also from forts), and that they don't feel stupidly random like Fe13's few instances.Trollish yes, but still really smart and respectable (except 17's dracos, damn you). I don't think anyone considers Fe6 to be the one of greatest FE games gameplay wise.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Florete]

FE13 enemy spawns can't nearly be as bad as FE6's wyvern ambushses or FE12's chapter 3 and lategame troll ambush spawns.

FE6's are definitely worse.

To everyone saying to "play a different game" or something like that, I don't know what point you're trying to make with that, but this offers no argument or legitimate critique, so, yeah. No. I'm still enjoying the game fine, but this mechanic being poorly-implemented in places has caused me to end some chapters with anger rather than fun. When mistakes really are my own damn fault (like when I miscalculated the damage a Sniper would do to Cordelia...), I only blame myself, but being hit from the back (or side) by random Pegasus reinforcements just makes it a game of trial-and-error, and such things simply aren't good game design.

I just finished Ch 1617 and that was much better about it. I was warned and there were multiple stairs dotting the place, too many to feasibly cover, but not so many that I can't be reasonably prepared. That's how it should be.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire
Not 16...

[sunshineYON]

Eh, as much as I like difficulty, hardcoreness, etc.etc. This practice is pretty annoying. It is more of bad design than difficulty. Not totally the same as "Nintendo hard" but a challenge needs to be something that can be overcame with skill not being aware ahead of time when is the game going to throw its next unexpected and brutal curveball. Real difficulty is to Super Meat Boy as Fake difficulty is to Super Syobon.

[eclipse]

I'd say there's a couple of POINTS where the ambush spawning could've been handled better, but for the most part, it was done right.

[Acacia Sgt]

Enemy spawning huh... personally I haven't had too much of a problem with it in this game. The only time it did was during an attempt at Laurent's Paralogue, but that was only because I kept visiting the villages as soon as they appeared not knowing that was the trigger for each wave of reinforcements, so of course I got overwhelmed.

All in all... I'm thankful they don't spawn before the Enemy Phase, well, at least in Normal Mode.

[Sublime Manic]

I found the way this game so frequently announced that reinforcements were coming to be really generous, personally. So much so I almost wish it wasn't announced so often. I don't find enemy phase spawning to be fake difficulty the way not being able to measure how far enemies can move is, though. Just knowing it exists in the game at all means you know it can happen. I take that as a cue to be prepared for the possibility of it, even when it's not announced by the game every time.

Chapter 16 was definitely a curve ball, but I LIKED that feeling of frustration it gave me at first. Apparently Chapter 25 is a similar curve ball, but I finished that in two turns so I didn't experience it. That chapter is VERY easy to finish really quickly though, so I'm not sure how much of an issue the reinforcements should even be considered in that case.

For the most part, enemy phase reinforcements seems to be more than fair IMO: the presence of stairs in a chapter is kind enough - TELLING me directly that they'll be arriving soon is like offering me free lunch. The instances that aren't so generous and can be argued as unfair or poorly designed seem to be exceptions rather than the standard.

[FlawedMortal]

FE6's are definitely worse.

To everyone saying to "play a different game" or something like that, I don't know what point you're trying to make with that, but this offers no argument or legitimate critique, so, yeah. No. I'm still enjoying the game fine, but this mechanic being poorly-implemented in places has caused me to end some chapters with anger rather than fun. When mistakes really are my own damn fault (like when I miscalculated the damage a Sniper would do to Cordelia...), I only blame myself, but being hit from the back (or side) by random Pegasus reinforcements just makes it a game of trial-and-error, and such things simply aren't good game design.

I just finished Ch 1617 and that was much better about it. I was warned and there were multiple stairs dotting the place, too many to feasibly cover, but not so many that I can't be reasonably prepared. That's how it should be.

Alright. All of this complaining kind of indicates that you don't like the game, as almost everyone who doesn't like this mechanic has said nothing good about the game, in this thread.

That and complaining (with a fair bit of what I swear would be perfectly at home given voice by my sister's whining) here doesn't do anything productive. We have no power over this mechanic. We can tell you when/where it occurs, or how to look for indications that it will, or how to work around it, but we cannot turn it off, or tell you how to. That rests with Nintendo and Intelligent Systems. To my knowledge Developer's actually look at certain threads on the Official forums. Most likely the FE forums hosted by Nintendo. They might not even know of this site. Or give it much thought.

Also, it kind of gets old for those of us who either don't mind it at all, or who kind of like it. (Like, whenever I see a fort or stairs on the map I assume they'll spawn enemy reinforcements sometime. And it appears to me, that most times reinforcements appear from the map's edges, there's some dialogue clue that reinforcements are on their way. So, yeah, I don't really know how to sympathize...)

Also, everything has flaws of somekind, somewhere. By nature humans cannot create perfection, because we aren't perfect, and our flaws and frailty get in the way of achieving complete perfection. Also, there are over 6 billion people on the planet, each of them has different tastes. You try making a game they'll all love, because if it's merely like for a franchise with the level of loyalty FE has demonstrated, there's going to be a backlash. So accept that it isn't perfect, and if something really bothered you, mail the Devs so there's a chance they'll know your grievance/s and avoid them next time. It's not like this is the Final FE. It's the next iteration of a series that's been going strong for, I would estimate, decades (or at least approaching). It's got an international foothold. The series isn't going to die. Nintendo will not let it, they would lose too much revenue if it did. And each game is the Devs trying to make something better than the last, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they don't, but it is a process of evolution, often even if the succeed, there is at least one aspect which they didn't, one aspect that did not surpass a predecessor.

Also if you are really that passionate, learn Game Programing, and develop your own, its harder than it looks, but if you say, have a working prototype, with perfected game mechanics, and send it to Intelligent Systems or Nintendo, they might take up where you left off, or bring you in. You may also need to waive your rights to intellectual property for this to work though. I've heard that mail-in submissions aren't usually touched, because of Intellectual Property rights, and possible ensuing conflict (read lawsuits) over who gets them.

http://extra-credits.net/episodes/

An excellent site for a look into the Industry from A Dev Consultant, a Graphic Designer/Artist, and an Animator. Humorous, thought provoking, and each episode is ~6 minutes in length. There's a new episode every week, and they cover a lot of topics. They also read fan emails, and answer fan questions, whether it be by dedicating an episode to the question, or covering a couple of questions quickly over a single episode.

[Constable Reggie]

Alright. All of this complaining kind of indicates that you don't like the game, as almost everyone who doesn't like this mechanic has said nothing good about the game, in this thread.

This is so blatantly wrong that it's not even worth reading the rest of your post.

[Florete]

Alright. All of this complaining kind of indicates that you don't like the game, as almost everyone who doesn't like this mechanic has said nothing good about the game, in this thread.

This is such an ignorant statement I can't even believe I'm going to take the rest of your post seriously.

That and complaining (with a fair bit of what I swear would be perfectly at home given voice by my sister's whining) here doesn't do anything productive. We have no power over this mechanic. We can tell you when/where it occurs, or how to look for indications that it will, or how to work around it, but we cannot turn it off, or tell you how to. That rests with Nintendo and Intelligent Systems. To my knowledge Developer's actually look at certain threads on the Official forums. Most likely the FE forums hosted by Nintendo. They might not even know of this site. Or give it much thought.

Okay? I know there's nothing I can do about it. It still makes me mad.

Also, it kind of gets old for those of us who either don't mind it at all, or who kind of like it. (Like, whenever I see a fort or stairs on the map I assume they'll spawn enemy reinforcements sometime. And it appears to me, that most times reinforcements appear from the map's edges, there's some dialogue clue that reinforcements are on their way. So, yeah, I don't really know how to sympathize...)

You know what this topic is about. If it annoys you, don't come here anymore.

Also, the bigger problem that has been brought up in this topic more than once is when there is no dialogue cue. In fact, the post you quoted included me praising a chapter for doing just that, and therefore doing the mechanic in question right.

Also, everything has flaws of somekind, somewhere. By nature humans cannot create perfection, because we aren't perfect, and our flaws and frailty get in the way of achieving complete perfection. Also, there are over 6 billion people on the planet, each of them has different tastes. You try making a game they'll all love, because if it's merely like for a franchise with the level of loyalty FE has demonstrated, there's going to be a backlash. So accept that it isn't perfect, and if something really bothered you, mail the Devs so there's a chance they'll know your grievance/s and avoid them next time. It's not like this is the Final FE. It's the next iteration of a series that's been going strong for, I would estimate, decades (or at least approaching). It's got an international foothold. The series isn't going to die. Nintendo will not let it, they would lose too much revenue if it did. And each game is the Devs trying to make something better than the last, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they don't, but it is a process of evolution, often even if the succeed, there is at least one aspect which they didn't, one aspect that did not surpass a predecessor.

This paragraph was almost as philosophical as Plato's Ion.

You are going way, way over the deep end now. It sounds like you're more annoyed at me than I am at this game mechanic. Chill. I am not a doomsayer, I do not nearly hate the game, and I do not expect it to be perfect. It's just got this one thing that's been causing me grief. Chill. And you should know that if I'm telling you to calm down, there's a problem, considering I was once known as Rage Fox.

Also if you are really that passionate

I'm not.

It's an especially infuriating bit of trolling when you think your frail ones are protected, but then the reinforcement has Pass and runs right by your wall to kill Olivia. Fuck you, Paralogue 10. Fuck you.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[ReedTien]

I do not think it is that bad... For the second playthrough onwards, you'll be able to anticipate their arrival. They never show up in huge numbers at once either. At least your army gets to pair up and dual attack/guard~.

[Florete]

You know, I was starting to warm up to these, since if you at least know where they'll appear, you can usually be prepared, but it's an especially infuriating bit of trolling when you think Olivia is protected and then the reinforcement has Pass and runs right by your wall to kill her, and on the last turn before you're ready to finish the map. Fuck you, Paralogue 10. Fuck you.