[NOC] Volcanic Anonymafia - Game Over

[Rain Nijika]

Ah, yes, now lets see what we have.

I make a post, poking at one person in response to a vote they made on me. It was clearly not going to be much of a defense as the reasons for the vote were simply random. Thus, I felt no real reason to defend myself. After all, if I had, it would have simply been empty words for an empty case. Simple. Next, I do not participate in RVS. Because, well, there was nothing for me to work on. Now, I ask you this. What is the point of putting down an empty vote when there are plenty of votes out there already? Instead, I was content to sit back and observe. And look what popped up. 4 votes on me within almost an hour. All for not placing a vote and some of them for my style of posting. Now, looking at this case logically, I see that this game only has three scum. So it is in fact impossible for all four of these people on my bandwagon to be scum. And even if there were four scum, I find it highly unlikely that they would all be on my wagon. No, they're smarter than that. However, it is interesting to look at the voting patterns.

Two people come in and vote me 6 minutes. 5 minutes later, Invisible comes in and says that he's content leaving his vote where it is. For this case, we can count that as being a third vote on me, since it essentially is due to his first vote being completely random. Invisible then says that I threatened him (please, I wouldn't waste my time. Saying that I'm going to keep an eye on you isn't a threat when I'm going to keep an eye on everyone) but then essentially says that I'm useless and need to go. Now, how is that any less of a threat than what I said? Hmm? And then the kicker, Fail there comes in and says that since I have no vote down, I have no sense and no place in this game.

Now, what can we learn from this? Well, I actually find it unlikely that Fail is scum. Instead, I find it likely that one of the first two people to vote me are scum. After all, that allows them to come in and appear to be contributing while really they're voting someone for something that isn't scummy at all. Let me ask you this. If I were scum, which would be better for me? To come in and toss a random vote down with a few words behind it, or to instead make a post that doesn't have a vote in it when I have the full knowledge that not voting in RVS is considered scummy for some reason? As for Invisible, I'm still not sure on him, but even if he is scum, for right now he has enough votes on him. As such, I'm going to

##Vote:Space Marine

You vote me for a weak reason which you then weaken even further by saying that you could easily switch your vote to Invisible.

Learn to observe people, not just see.

[All Might]

RVS is an attempt to spark discussion when there's nothing in the game to go off of. Sitting back and waiting for the discussion to get sparked in some way is not helpful, and for that reason I can agree with the votes made on you, as they're ED1. SM's vote against you reads as much a much more genuine ED1 vote than the other's, which look more like jumping onto a wagon with the excuse of it being to get reactions. Your vote against SM saying that he decided to vote you for something that's not scummy at all is completely subjective because making empty posts in RVS isn't helpful to the town. Either you don't help town get out of RVS or you help town get out of RVS by making yourself the center of suspicion, which is unhelpful if you're town, because it wastes town's time.

[Shiki Ryougi]

It may have been RVS, but even RVS votes serve a purpose. People react when votes stack against them, and some people react to even a single vote on them. Maybe yours wouldn't have got your target to react, but laying down a vote and possibly getting a reaction is better than just strolling in, making a comment, then walking out. Even if you were busy, how time-consuming is it to lay down an arbitrary vote on someone and get back to work?

Also, if your intent in the first place was to look "purposely scummy," then stop. It really does screw up people's reads.

[Rain Nijika]

I'm not trying to purposely look scummy, that would be a waste of my time. But, I also had no reason to lay down a vote. That was my point. It would have been less effort to put down a useless vote that would have gotten no reactions than to make a post like I did which did get reactions that I was looking for.

[Shiki Ryougi]

How do you know that your vote would have been "useless" and that it would be reacted to? With your logic, how would would we ever get out of RVS in previous games? Basically, you popping in and refusing to vote is the "thing that broke RVS". In my case, it's not so much that you didn't vote, but your general attitude.

Who even has a reason to lay down a vote in RVS in that case?

[All Might]

Yes, but the reactions you got could make people focus on you as a scumread of their's, which isn't beneficial even if that wasn't your intention. But I'm not getting a scumread from you atm so I'll drop it. You should be aware of it for future games though.

Pasadena, since you're here, what did you think of Bored's post analyzing the votes made against him?

[Cú Chulainn]

Someone seems to know how not to bring progress in a game. Most ludacris. I wouldn't come near you unless you had those cute skinny jeans on. Your plan of not participating in.RVS stages by firmly abstaining from it have albeit made you look like a baboon's red shiny rear.

Honestly, if you're trying to press things forward, do you think you will be successful by adamantly doing nothing?

##Unvote

##Vote Bored

Hell you reacted to every random point against you like there were legit cases formed within the mere handful of hours that this game has existed on.

Between utter defensiveness, overreaction, and a lack of vote-worthy reads after that verbal explosion of flaming hot nonsense, I'm satisfied with my vote right here.

[Rain Nijika]

I am curious as to how making one post, waiting for a bit, and then making a detailed post about people's reactions and putting a vote down is doing nothing. Perhaps you need a dictionary to figure out the definition of nothing?

I react to points made to me because they were points and if I ignored them people would get mad at me.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Pasadena, since you're here, what did you think of Bored's post analyzing the votes made against him?

I feel that he's ignoring why people are voting him and just simplifying it to "people voting me are scum". Also, I don't like that he said, "I think the first two people voting me are scum for something that's not scummy" because by his own admission we can't ALL be scum voting him, and feels like he is just throwing around accusations.

[Shiki Ryougi]

I am curious as to how making one post, waiting for a bit, and then making a detailed post about people's reactions and putting a vote down is doing nothing. Perhaps you need a dictionary to figure out the definition of nothing?

Uh, yeah, this comes off to me as being "intentionally scummy".

[Refakitty³]

Invisible, why do you feel the need to discredit the votes made against you when none of them, as far as I can tell, are serious?

Because I'm town and chances are I don't think you're gonna be lynching me, that's why. Also because as you say, they aren't particularly serious. I'm not worried about them at all.

Bored, I have a few questions.

How would you suggest we progress in a game if we did not have RVS (or something similar)?

What do you have to gain for not voting at any point, ever?

Why did you vote Space Marines over me, if you think I might be scum? Better yet, why did you vote for him while doing the exact same thing yourself? (You said you could have voted me, but decided to vote someone else instead.)

Now if you'll excuse me it's well past midnight and I should be sleeping. I will return in the morning and hopefully make a post before I have to leave for school.

[All Might]

I didn't feel that his attempt to analyze the people voting him was him being intentionally scummy. His analysis was incorrect, in my opinion, but I don't think that it was scummy. Seems more like a newer player flailing around slightly than scum to me. And even if he was attempting to be intentionally scummy, while that's bad play, it's also something that town do, not something that scum do. So at the moment, anyway, I don't find Bored to be scum.

Additionally, Bored's response to Flaming Hot is correct- his first post didn't do anything, but the second one did, even if it didn't do it very well. Flaming Hot seems like he's just jumping on the wagon, saying the same stuff as the first few people did, but not really giving proper reasoning, as the initial reason why the first few people voted for Bored doesn't really hold true anymore.

Invisible, if the votes weren't serious like you admit, and you don't think we're going to be lynching you, why respond to the votes in the first place? That was my question and I don't think you've answered it. I'll wait for morning for your response to this since I'm heading off now too.

[Estelle]

I feel that he's ignoring why people are voting him and just simplifying it to "people voting me are scum". Also, I don't like that he said, "I think the first two people voting me are scum for something that's not scummy" because by his own admission we can't ALL be scum voting him, and feels like he is just throwing around accusations.

Bored is an idiot (if everyone thought the way he does we'd never get anywhere) but this is an oversimplification of what he said to the point of misrepresentation. He explicitly said the people he thinks are scummy are those who are voting him while trying to look like they're contributing, and that he finds it unlikely that Fail is scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: Pasadena

@Pocket Ace: Why do you think Bored is a new player? His posts imply to me that he has a decent grasp of mafia theory e.g. "Why would scum do this?"

[Refakitty³]

I'm not quite out yet.

Invisible, if the votes weren't serious like you admit, and you don't think we're going to be lynching you, why respond to the votes in the first place? That was my question and I don't think you've answered it. I'll wait for morning for your response to this since I'm heading off now too.

I don't think that's quite how you worded it initially but that might just be me failing comprehension right now.

To answer your question: Well I just felt like it at the time, mostly because I was reasonably certain that you won't be lynching me. It's mostly just some petty reasons on my end, kinda like an offhand comment. Take it how you will, that's half the fun.

[Shiki Ryougi]

I didn't feel that his attempt to analyze the people voting him was him being intentionally scummy. His analysis was incorrect, in my opinion, but I don't think that it was scummy. Seems more like a newer player flailing around slightly than scum to me. And even if he was attempting to be intentionally scummy, while that's bad play, it's also something that town do, not something that scum do. So at the moment, anyway, I don't find Bored to be scum.

What I felt was intentionally scummy was his popping into the thread to sorta respond to Invisible and say "call me when interesting things happen", not do anything else, then wait to see how people respond to him. Like he's drawing attention to himself to see how people react to it.

Aside from Bored, I am not quite liking Invisible right now. He seems to be making a big deal out of acting as if he's not bothered by votes on him.

[Rain Nijika]

"I feel that he's ignoring why people are voting him and just simplifying it to "people voting me are scum". Also, I don't like that he said, "I think the first two people voting me are scum for something that's not scummy" because by his own admission we can't ALL be scum voting him, and feels like he is just throwing around accusations. "

I am not ignoring why people are voting me. They're voting me for not putting a vote down in RVS and for "being useless". I also specifically did not say that everyone that is voting me is scum. Instead, I looked into how each person voted me and stated why I thought some of them were scummy. If you're not even going to bother to actually read what I'm saying, why should I bother to write this at all? I said I thought that it was more likely that one of the first two people voting me are scum because I was a safe person to vote seriously at that point in time. Then, looking into their posts, I made a decision of which of those two people I thought was more likely to be scum and voted them.

As for being intentionally scummy, no. I'm not. I did something that I do not view as scummy at all. I figured that I'd get maybe one or two comments on it and that's it. I did not expect to get 5 votes within two hours. If I had realized the extent to which what I was doing would cause ruckus, I likely would not have done it since I do not want to be cluttering up people's reads with scum reads. But, I ask once again, which is harder: dropping down a vote with one sentence explanation and getting no negative attention for it or doing something that I view as perfectly valid but am aware could possible get a few negative points towards me? Scum are trying to blend in. They want to appear to be one of us. Their perfect world is when we are at each others throats and they can just pick us off one by one. But instead I do something that stood out. Why would I do that if I were scum? Think about it logically.

How would you suggest we progress in a game if we did not have RVS (or something similar)?

What do you have to gain for not voting at any point, ever?

Why did you vote Space Marines over me, if you think I might be scum? Better yet, why did you vote for him while doing the exact same thing yourself? (You said you could have voted me, but decided to vote someone else instead.)

-Well, discussion is one way. RVS rarely gets anything useful from the votes. What's useful about it is the interactions. I can get interactions from people without a vote and most people tend to treat RVS as a joke since it really is most of the time.

-What do I have to lose by not voting at this point in the game? I had no facts to base my vote off of. My vote and my voice are my two weapons in this game. One of those is much more deadly and I will not treat it lightly. When I vote someone, it's a serious thing. I see no reason in wasting one of my few weapons for a joke that other people seem to view as the be all end all.

-I am not sure if you are scum. That's why I didn't vote for you. I'm honestly not sure how to read you. You're a mystery I have yet to solve. Add on to that the fact that you already had plenty of votes and it results in voting you being both boring and largely useless. Voting Space Marines who I view as scummy allows me to use my weapon seriously and perhaps usefully. For instance, did anyone else notice that after I voted for him, Space Marines was reading the thread and then disappeared without defending himself? I find that a bit suspicious. However, I do have something of a read on you, but I'm not sure how it's going to swing. Thus I mentioned it because hiding our thoughts from each other will only allow the mafia to mess with us more. So I mentioned my read on you, but it was not as solid as the one I had on SM and as such voted him over you.

But come. Lets look at this logically. There are 14 people in the game. At any point in time, there have been 5 people voting for me. I know that I am town, which means there is a greater than 1/3 chance that at least one of the people voting me was scum. I find it likely that only one of them was scum as if they are playing logically, they will avoid band wagoning together, at least at first. However, that is assuming that the mafia is playing smart, which can be a dangerous assumption to make at times if it causes you to eliminate people completely. Thus, I went with my instincts as to who was slightly more likely to be scum.

[Estelle]

tldr reader's digest version please

[Shiki Ryougi]

Bored is an idiot (if everyone thought the way he does we'd never get anywhere) but this is an oversimplification of what he said to the point of misrepresentation. He explicitly said the people he thinks are scummy are those who are voting him while trying to look like they're contributing, and that he finds it unlikely that Fail is scum.

Fail was not one of the first two voters on him. Therefore, I acknowledged that Bored didn't think Fail was scum. Also, I know what he said. But I still feel that this is simplification on his part as well to say he thinks that Space Marine and I were voting him just to look like we were contributing. It was RVS, I didn't like what he had to say, and I voted. Sorry if you think I'm oversimplifying to the point of misrepresentation, but it felt like an OMGUS, as much as I hate that word.

[Rain Nijika]

"tldr reader's digest version please "

No. Read it yourself. I put effort into that post and if you can't be bothered to read it then maybe you shouldn't be playing.

[Estelle]

Like I said, you're oversimplifying. He even said that even if the number of scum was >= the number of people on his wagon, that it was unlikely they were all scum because it would be terribly stupid of them to wagon like that. The first two people to vote him seriously were, in his words, trying to not contribute while looking like they were by starting a bad wagon.

However, I don't like this "Scum wouldn't do X so I'm not scum" logic used unless X is something that is extremely detrimental to scum, such as getting several members of their team killed or clearing several townies.

[Prims]

Votecount 1.2

Bored (5) - Invisible, Space Marine, Pasadena, Failbaddon, Flaming Hot

Invisible (2) - Senbonzakura, Pocket Ace

Pasadena (2) - Mormegil, Brian Kibler

enigma (1) - Failbaddon

Flaming Hot (1) - enigma

Paperclip (1) - Moeblobs With Hats

Senbonzakura (1) - Frank Lucas

Space Marine (1) - Bored

Not Voting: Paperclip

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have about 65 hours and 21 minutes left in the day.

[Shiki Ryougi]

I am not ignoring why people are voting me. They're voting me for not putting a vote down in RVS and for "being useless". I also specifically did not say that everyone that is voting me is scum. Instead, I looked into how each person voted me and stated why I thought some of them were scummy. If you're not even going to bother to actually read what I'm saying, why should I bother to write this at all? I said I thought that it was more likely that one of the first two people voting me are scum because I was a safe person to vote seriously at that point in time. Then, looking into their posts, I made a decision of which of those two people I thought was more likely to be scum and voted them.

I'm not everyone else, so I can't speak for them. My vote was more for your attitude: "Call me when you have something more interesting," which came off to me as you not wanting to participate. Also, I'm not getting your logic on why the "first two" votes were worse than the "later ones", even if it seemed like a "safe" vote at the time. According to logic, later votes on a wagon can also be a "safe vote" because that person already has votes on them started by another person and it's "not as much" their responsibility.

As for being intentionally scummy, no. I'm not. I did something that I do not view as scummy at all. I figured that I'd get maybe one or two comments on it and that's it. I did not expect to get 5 votes within two hours. If I had realized the extent to which what I was doing would cause ruckus, I likely would not have done it since I do not want to be cluttering up people's reads with scum reads. But, I ask once again, which is harder: dropping down a vote with one sentence explanation and getting no negative attention for it or doing something that I view as perfectly valid but am aware could possible get a few negative points towards me? Scum are trying to blend in. They want to appear to be one of us. Their perfect world is when we are at each others throats and they can just pick us off one by one. But instead I do something that stood out. Why would I do that if I were scum? Think about it logically.

Scum want to blend in, yes, but town shouldn't attract attention to themselves to the point where it lets the real scum blend in. Perhaps it was not your intent, but you did end up accumulating four or five votes. As much as I don't like your attitude or disagree with your logic, I do agree that your motivations don't sound like a scum one. (Also, please do not tell me to think "logically" when I feel the same can be said to you.) Don't think you are completely off the hook though.

##Unvote

##Vote: Invisible

I still find it odd the way you need to show how "cool" you are with votes on you. Are you scum, trying to act overly town by not making a big deal over getting votes?

[Shiki Ryougi]

Like I said, you're oversimplifying. He even said that even if the number of scum was >= the number of people on his wagon, that it was unlikely they were all scum because it would be terribly stupid of them to wagon like that. The first two people to vote him seriously were, in his words, trying to not contribute while looking like they were by starting a bad wagon.

I ended up leaving that part of his post out of mine, but yeah, I know all that and I acknowledge that. My simplification sucks, I just didn't want to repeat his entire point to make my point. Like I stated in my previous post, even if I can see his "logic", I don't agree with it and it still feels like a partial OMGUS (whether this is true or not).

[Shiki Ryougi]

Also, enigma, I see you reading this thread. Are you just going to watch or say something?

[C. C.]

Moeblobs With Hats does not like both Bored and Invisible!

However, Moeblobs With Hats is bothered by how quickly the wagon on Bored has formed! Moeblobs can sense opportunistic scum on Bored's wagon!

Thankfully for Moeblobs, the weakest link perceived on Bored's wagon is conveniently also Invisible!

Furthermore, the accusation in post #61 that Bored is being hypocritical does put Invisible on a higher placement then Bored! Accusing someone of doing the same scummy tactic you have committed only causes both of you to gain a lower standing among town!

Furthermore taking the "Because I'm Town" defense does not fly with Moeblobs! Being apathetic over votes on you makes you look scummy, rather then defending them! Mafia is a game of interactions! You should address points made at you regardless of how early the game is ongoing, or else there will be no progress made towards interacting and finding scum!

Invisible has three strikes placed upon him! Therefore, he's out!

##Unvote

##Vote: Invisible