Donny X Panne

[cyron]

I was unsure of how this pairing would turn out as far as supports go but its actually really amusing and of course yarne is just amazing his bases are just amazing and he almost never gets anything less then 4 stats in a level usually more

[Anacybele]

He probably inherited Aptitude then, which adds 20% to each growth rate of the user. Any child of Donnel's would end up totally killing shit if they got that skill. xP

Edited February 23, 2013 by Anacybele

[cyron]

He probably inherited Aptitude then, which adds 20% to each growth rate of the user. Any child of Donnel's would end up totally killing shit if they got that skill. xP

I know I made sure i had it set up so he would have aptitude

[darkkfan]

I paired Donnel with Panne during my first playthrough. Yarne was a killing machine, and the supports were pretty good too. The only problem with it is that since Yarne's is one of the harder sidequests, it is difficult to complete earlier in the game. That is, other pairings make it easier to take advantage of aptitude on Donnel's kid earlier in the game, but that's not a huge deal since most people don't attempt the children paralogues until later in the game.

[eclipse]

I'd much rather pass Underdog.

If Donnel has a son, then said son can reclass into Villager, get Aptitude immediately, gain nine levels, and never touch that class again. Underdog doesn't show up until level 15, and I think my characters are better used in any OTHER class besides Villager for those five levels. If Donnel has a daughter. . .yeah, she's getting Underdog too. Stat boosters are technically infinite, so I can eventually max out stats, eventually making Aptitude useless. Second Seals exist, so I can adjust my uber-character back down to promoted level 1; unless I'm facing enemies who are the same level or lower (i.e. unpromoted), Underdog will work, and extra dodging ability is always welcome.

[darkkfan]

I'd much rather pass Underdog.

If Donnel has a son, then said son can reclass into Villager, get Aptitude immediately, gain nine levels, and never touch that class again. Underdog doesn't show up until level 15, and I think my characters are better used in any OTHER class besides Villager for those five levels. If Donnel has a daughter. . .yeah, she's getting Underdog too. Stat boosters are technically infinite, so I can eventually max out stats, eventually making Aptitude useless. Second Seals exist, so I can adjust my uber-character back down to promoted level 1; unless I'm facing enemies who are the same level or lower (i.e. unpromoted), Underdog will work, and extra dodging ability is always welcome.

That's an interesting point, but I still like passing down Aptitude just to make leveling easier (at least for semi-efficient play, but you probably wouldn't be using Donnel in semi-efficient play so whatever), especially since Underdog always seemed sort of meh to me and most people would rather not reclass back to Villager if they don't have to. Granted Donnel and most of his kids don't have too many reclass combos for other skills, but still, I find it difficult to justify giving +15% Hit and Avoid a spot over 20% growths.

As an aside, does Underdog go by internal levels or displayed level? Because that would make a little bit of a difference if you could just second seal a character back to level 1 (promoted, of course) and gain underdog bonuses.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Why so Sirius?

[eclipse]

That's an interesting point, but I still like passing down Aptitude just to make leveling easier (at least for semi-efficient play, but you probably wouldn't be using Donnel in semi-efficient play so whatever), especially since Underdog always seemed sort of meh to me and most people would rather not reclass back to Villager if they don't have to. Granted Donnel and most of his kids don't have too many reclass combos for other skills, but still, I find it difficult to justify giving +15% Hit and Avoid a spot over 20% growths.

As an aside, does Underdog go by internal levels or displayed level? Because that would make a little bit of a difference if you could just second seal a character back to level 1 (promoted, of course) and gain underdog bonuses.

I *think* it's displayed level. Gerome has that, and is in need of Second Sealing, so I can check that just as soon as I'm not broke.

EDIT: NUMBERS

I Second Seal'd Gerome down to level 1 promoted. Here's some numbers:

Name       Class       Level  HP  Str  Mag  Skl  Spd  Lck  Def  Res  Hit   Avoid   Skills (relevant)
Gerome     Warrior      1.00  75  46    8   31   37   35   33   12   149    73     Underdog
Risen1     Berserker   11.00  71  38    0   18   28   16   15    8   120    50     Gamble
Risen2     Berserker   11.00  71  38    0   17   28   15   15    7   118    49     Gamble
Risen3     Warrior     11.00  72  33    0   24   19   22   20   11   132    39     None

I'll leave this for now, then run the skirmish and see how the numbers pan out.

Battle: All plains. No one gets an avoid boost from terrain. Gerome is all alone, so supports don't matter, either.

Risen3 - 44% displayed hit, Gerome has 100% displayed hit

Risen1 - 27% displayed hit, Gerome has 100% displayed hit

Risen2 - 25% displayed hit, Gerome has 100% displayed hit

Looks like it goes off of displayed level.

Edited February 24, 2013 by eclipse

[Honestly Vitali]

I married them just for Donny's line, "I'll never trap again if you promise not to eat me...!"

I also married Nah to Inigo for similar content (poor Inigo!). Maybe I have an issue...

But if you do do it, I also recommend Weak Beats Stong (or it's new name I can't remember -- Underdog?). You can reset levels, so it'll kick in a lot. Aptitude loses it's use.

But he gets Villager, so I guess it doesn't really matter. He can get both.

[PuffPuff]

I'd much rather pass Underdog.

If Donnel has a son, then said son can reclass into Villager, get Aptitude immediately, gain nine levels, and never touch that class again. Underdog doesn't show up until level 15, and I think my characters are better used in any OTHER class besides Villager for those five levels. If Donnel has a daughter. . .yeah, she's getting Underdog too. Stat boosters are technically infinite, so I can eventually max out stats, eventually making Aptitude useless. Second Seals exist, so I can adjust my uber-character back down to promoted level 1; unless I'm facing enemies who are the same level or lower (i.e. unpromoted), Underdog will work, and extra dodging ability is always welcome.

And making him/her into a Merc afterwards to get both Arms Thrift for unlimited weapon uses and Sol to make him/her better in the enemy phases dropping Aptitude in the end for one of them. =)

Edited February 24, 2013 by Katarina

[shadykid]

the thing about reclassing to Villager is that you have to reclass to Villager and then get out of it

besides, Donny would be better served giving a female child Galeforce (which means no Villager class access in the first place)

[Othin]

Underdog isn't worth 10 levels of Villager. Never have Donny pass it down.

[eclipse]

the thing about reclassing to Villager is that you have to reclass to Villager and then get out of it

besides, Donny would be better served giving a female child Galeforce (which means no Villager class access in the first place)

Uh, Donnel starts in that class?

Underdog isn't worth 10 levels of Villager. Never have Donny pass it down.

He's stuck in that class until level 10, and IMO that's the hardest part of his training. Getting the extra five levels after that isn't as painful.

. . .unless you don't intend on training him at all, in which case his kid's gonna be reliant on mom's bases (and pairing for the sake of Aptitude isn't worth it).

[shadykid]

Uh, Donnel starts in that class?

i mean his kid, cause you said the kid could just reclass to Villager and pick up Aptitude

your words earlier:

"If Donnel has a son, then said son can reclass into Villager, get Aptitude immediately, gain nine levels, and never touch that class again."

yeah

[eclipse]

[/size]

i mean his kid, cause you said the kid could just reclass to Villager and pick up Aptitude

your words earlier:

"If Donnel has a son, then said son can reclass into Villager, get Aptitude immediately, gain nine levels, and never touch that class again."

yeah

Okay, I see. I still think it's a waste to pass Aptitude, especially if it's someone that can get it by going Villager (if they're being reclassed into it, it won't be anywhere near as painful as Donnel's joining chapter).

[Othin]

Okay, I see. I still think it's a waste to pass Aptitude, especially if it's someone that can get it by going Villager (if they're being reclassed into it, it won't be anywhere near as painful as Donnel's joining chapter).

The notion of reclassing them to Villager is simply absurd and completely horrible in every conceivable way. I already explained this.

Underdog isn't worth 10 levels of Villager. Never have Donny pass it down.

[eclipse]

The notion of reclassing them to Villager is simply absurd and completely horrible in every conceivable way. I already explained this.

If you're passing on Aptitude to anyone, you're pairing Donnel with someone. If I'm going to do something that inane, I might as well attempt to make him useful on those maps, or his kids are gonna require work that I could've done earlier.

I am of the notion that Aptitude isn't worth getting, but if it must be obtained, the kid can do so on his own time.

[shadykid]

er.....either this is an efficiency playthrough, in which case Donnel isn't getting paired with anybody and this discussion is pointless, or it's not, and therefore it's not worth burning two Second Seals and a bunch of levels for a mediocre skill (Underdog)

[Othin]

If you're passing on Aptitude to anyone, you're pairing Donnel with someone. If I'm going to do something that inane, I might as well attempt to make him useful on those maps, or his kids are gonna require work that I could've done earlier.

I am of the notion that Aptitude isn't worth getting, but if it must be obtained, the kid can do so on his own time.

God dammit, listen. I'm not talking about training Donnel; I'm talking about this bizarre notion you keep advocating of reclassing his kid to Villager. Explain to me how reclassing his kid to Villager so you can pass down Underdog instead of Aptitude is remotely worth it.

[eclipse]

God dammit, listen. I'm not talking about training Donnel; I'm talking about this bizarre notion you keep advocating of reclassing his kid to Villager. Explain to me how reclassing his kid to Villager so you can pass down Underdog instead of Aptitude is remotely worth it.

I see two scenarios:

1. Donnel is deployed until he has a kid, and gains very little (if any) experience. His kid's bases are gonna suffer, and I'll have to work at making his kid Not Suck; furthermore, if I decide I want Underdog in the future (because herpderp max stats makes Aptitude pointless), I'm gonna have to reclass his son to Villager for it/his daughter's SOL and stuck with a now-worthless skill.

2. Donnel gets trained seriously. His kid's bases will be more manageable, which means less (if any) time for me to train the kid; furthermore, once his bases stop sucking, Villager is slightly less painful.

Villager the Class has horrible bases, and putting someone with bad bases into that class is an exercise in patience. Villager the Person with Not-Horrible Bases isn't as painful; thus, given a choice, I'll go with Villager the Person with Not-Horrible Bases. It also means that I don't have to reclass his son into Villager for fourteen levels if I decide that I want more Avoid.

In other words, think ahead to that time when you max everything out.

[Othin]

Let's look at Gerome as an example. When he joins, he can immediately promote to Wyvern Lord and get promotion gains, or demote to Villager and lose stats. As a Wyvern Lord, compared to being a Villager, he gets +8 HP, +10 Str, +7 Skl, +6 Spd, +10 Def, +3 Res, and +3 Move. That's huge, and the kids need every stat point they can get. He also gets to keep his Axe C rank rather than being locked to shitty Lance E, while getting Lance E as a Wyvern Lord as well.

So, what you're saying is, he should suffer through 10 levels of this, then burn another 10 levels in another unpromoted class before finally getting to promote? All for +15 Hit/Avo? It just doesn't make sense, no matter how good or bad Gerome's stats are beforehand.

You talk about postgame. For the male kids, so what? In postgame, you just train them for 15 levels of Villager later, when you're grinding, instead of earlier in the main story, when you're not. That's if Underdog is one of the skills you go for in postgame, which it... isn't. Which I guess answers the "issue" of the female kids, although the main thing I take issue is that you would ever want to reclass the male kids into something so horrible.

It's worth bearing in mind that all of the male kids, save Brady, start with a C rank in some weapon type, yet all of them start with an E in lances. So it's about as horrible for all of them.

[eclipse]

Let's look at Gerome as an example. When he joins, he can immediately promote to Wyvern Lord and get promotion gains, or demote to Villager and lose stats. As a Wyvern Lord, compared to being a Villager, he gets +8 HP, +10 Str, +7 Skl, +6 Spd, +10 Def, +3 Res, and +3 Move. That's huge, and the kids need every stat point they can get. He also gets to keep his Axe C rank rather than being locked to shitty Lance E, while getting Lance E as a Wyvern Lord as well.

So, what you're saying is, he should suffer through 10 levels of this, then burn another 10 levels in another unpromoted class before finally getting to promote? All for +15 Hit/Avo? It just doesn't make sense, no matter how good or bad Gerome's stats are beforehand.

You talk about postgame. For the male kids, so what? In postgame, you just train them for 15 levels of Villager later, when you're grinding, instead of earlier in the main story, when you're not. That's if Underdog is one of the skills you go for in postgame, which it... isn't. Which I guess answers the "issue" of the female kids, although the main thing I take issue is that you would ever want to reclass the male kids into something so horrible.

It's worth bearing in mind that all of the male kids, save Brady, start with a C rank in some weapon type, yet all of them start with an E in lances. So it's about as horrible for all of them.

I didn't say you had to reclass immediately to get Aptitude.

I realize it's an issue of grinding. If you're going LTC/efficiency, then it's obviously a waste of time. However, attempting to use Donnel in anything remotely resembling LTC/efficiency is a waste of a deployment slot, IMO (his bases bite, and the bonuses he gives are suboptimal unless you're going for Miracle/Astra or something silly like that). If I'm using Donnel, it means I'm looking at a super-team. If I'm doing a super-team, that means I'm gonna do as much as possible to alleviate my own suffering later, which means an extra five levels for Donnel so that his sons don't have to go that way/daughters don't get screwed once they start maxing stats.

20% stat growth means a point every five levels on average, or ten levels for the equivalent of one stat booster. Given the sheer amount of Anna I have in my game (it's stupid), I'm not worried about the "loss" I get from not having Aptitude - I'm gonna make it up in stat boosters because I can't draw a skirmish to save my life.

[shadykid]

but the real question is: why the hell would you want Underdog?

[eclipse]

but the real question is: why the hell would you want Underdog?

I like having stupid-high hit/avoid. The RNG can't screw you and kill you if the enemy has 0% hit on you (unless it's something like Counter). I'm waiting for the harder DLC chapters, to see if the extra 15% dodging is worth it.

[Bryan]

I like having stupid-high hit/avoid. The RNG can't screw you and kill you if the enemy has 0% hit on you (unless it's something like Counter). I'm waiting for the harder DLC chapters, to see if the extra 15% dodging is worth it.

I have to jump on the "Why the hell would you have donnel pass down underdog?" train.

Aptitiude is better in every way. That 20% goes a LOOOONG way. That's an extra 160% added growth? That's nothing to scoff at.

Besides, for female children, Donnel passes down Merc and Peg. Knight. Both of those have more than five skills that you could replace aptitude with afterwards, and that's not even including the mother's class choices.

In other words, Donnel makes a kickass father because of aptitude. You're screwing over the children by not giving them aptitude. They'll have supports and they won't ever get hit anyway. And if they do, it's because you're on lunatic mode and the enemies have hawkeye. (Hint, Underdog does nothing while good growths still does. All the more reason to go for aptitiude.)

[eclipse]

I have to jump on the "Why the hell would you have donnel pass down underdog?" train.

Aptitiude is better in every way. That 20% goes a LOOOONG way. That's an extra 160% added growth? That's nothing to scoff at.

Besides, for female children, Donnel passes down Merc and Peg. Knight. Both of those have more than five skills that you could replace aptitude with afterwards, and that's not even including the mother's class choices.

In other words, Donnel makes a kickass father because of aptitude. You're screwing over the children by not giving them aptitude. They'll have supports and they won't ever get hit anyway. And if they do, it's because you're on lunatic mode and the enemies have hawkeye. (Hint, Underdog does nothing while good growths still does. All the more reason to go for aptitiude.)

You realize you're hyping growths in a game where stat boosters are infinite?

EDIT: If I were on Lunatic, Donnel would be permanently benched.

Edited February 25, 2013 by eclipse