why are jeigans in high tiers?

[arvilino]

So Snowy you wrote this:

There wasn't anything to say. Even a 20/20 Rolf would be 'good' if he came in chapter 1. But let me ask you this. If you had a 20/20 Titania and needed to raise up Oscar, Boyd, Ike, and Marcia to get a healthy LTC count, would you still have Titania get kills even though she gets, literally, nothing out of them? Or would you try to raise up those other units and try to use Titania rarely, if ever, at all?

Then Red Fox of Fire answered it in terms of LTC, since you brought it up.

If I needed to raise them to keep turn counts low, I would do so in the least costly way possible - something we, you know, already do. I wouldn't be at all afraid to use Titania when she makes things faster. Essentially nothing would change compared to normal except possibly attempting to feed more boss kills to other units if it doesn't take extra time to do so.

So why did you respond with this as if it wasn't you who set the question in terms of LTC.

So, in your mind, LTC above all else even when one unit literally gets nothing out of those kills. Don't you think some people, especially people not obsessed with LTC, might not do that?

Besides why does it matter if Titania gets nothing out of the kills? Whether a unit gets EXP or not, if you need them and only them to do something to reach a certain goal, you're going to have them do that something whether they're 20/20 and gaining 0 EXP per kill or 1/0 and gaining significantly more EXP. It's not wasting EXP if the unit is required to do something none of the other ones can in the same situation,

[General Horace]

So Horace, do you think Seth is an exp drain?

To some extent, yes, there would be some things possible if he had not swallowed up all the exp on his own (chapter 12 and endgame come to mind) but at the same time, some chapters like chapter 9 require Seth to have quite a few levels, that he probably could have got through boss kills etc.

EDIT: also that one with all the zombies and stuff before saleh, i think its chapter 11

Edited April 7, 2013 by General Horace

[Chiki]

I never would deny that Jeigans are top tier. They simply don't deserve the 10s that debaters here used to argue. They are exp drains and they are overrated.

[shadykid]

because your stance has been thoroughly refuted in every possible way, even when the opposition has made serious concessions.

at some point you have to recognize that you're wrong...

i don't know about that one....

[Espinosa]

I never would deny that Jeigans are top tier. They simply don't deserve the 10s that debaters here used to argue. They are exp drains and they are overrated.

Then name one thing Seth (or Sigurd) fails at. Why should we worry about others losing the experience when Seth makes the best use of it?

[Chiki]

Flying.

[Espinosa]

Flying.

Flight would compromise reliability of counterkilling archers on enemy phase. If Delphi Shield is assumed, then you should be looking for a "perfect game" rather than for a perfect character because no flier covers their weakness right from the start (though Haar and Jill mysteriously grow neutral in relation to bows in FE10).

[Redwall]

Snowy, the outcomes of your tierlist aren't even testable; f(x) = (utility + combat + saved turns)/3 doesn't output anything that's independently measurable.

Contrast that with how tierlist disputes are currently handled; you believe the decision of Mia vs. Zihark over a single turn to be a "weakness" of the tiering criteria, whereas everyone else knows it to be a strength since it means that character rankings can actually be tested and falsified.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

Flight would compromise reliability of counterkilling archers on enemy phase. If Delphi Shield is assumed, then you should be looking for a "perfect game" rather than for a perfect character because no flier covers their weakness right from the start (though Haar and Jill mysteriously grow neutral in relation to bows in FE10).

Do you really think mounts are more valuable than flying? After all your playthroughs? The disadvantages are trivial.

If flight was useless in FE8, sure, but it isn't.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Loki Laufeyson]

Snowy, are you just having a beef because you think the tier lists are made up of Stop Having Fun Guys? I used to think the same thing until i like, read the topics. They arent saying "You must play this way or yer doing it wrong!" At least not anymore... They are saying "These guys are awesome/bad based on these conditions." While i too, tend to find that arbitrary and never follow it, if its useful for people who play that way, what is the problem?

[dondon151]

Do you really think mounts are more valuable than flying? After all your playthroughs? The disadvantages are trivial.

If flight was useless in FE8, sure, but it isn't.

of course flying is more valuable in a vacuum. the question as it applies to each individual game, though, is whether the benefit of using the flier over the mount later in the game offsets the cost of training the flier in the first place.

[Chiki]

of course flying is more valuable in a vacuum. the question as it applies to each individual game, though, is whether the benefit of using the flier over the mount later in the game offsets the cost of training the flier in the first place.

As I said in my post, flying in FE8 isn't useless. Chapter 7, etc.

Training would allow Vanessa to survive at least one hit from archers and ballistae, and that isn't even including misses.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

Plenty of factors affect how good a flier/flight is in a game/specific map:

- how plentiful is the terrain

- what is the effective damage (if any)

- risk of death

- convenience of training the flier(-s)

- presence of a dancer and the possibilities that arise from it (e.g. if Sain promoted to a flier in Lyn Mode chapter 10, the mode could still only be 3-turned, making zero difference in whether Sain flies or Florina carries him and Lyn instead)

Imagine a situation like chapter 7 in FE8. Unless Eirika can ORKO the boss (she shouldn't be if Seth has been killing the bosses as he should) and Vanessa is ready to dodge 2 archers and a ballista, Vanessa will have to carry Seth over the river, then once Seth has taken out the archers and other enemies (soldiers 2HKO Vanessa with good hit rates) do the same with Eirika who seizes. But even if you're forcing your luck, a 3-turn is what you can get theoretically with either Vanessa or promoted flier Seth.

So if you limit it to turns, you will often find yourself in situation where no visible improvement in turn count is observed while reliability is compromised (flier Seth can no longer be dropped in the range of two archers, and if Seth carries Eirika himself, he'll even be weighed down!).

[dondon151]

As I said in my post, flying in FE8 isn't useless. Chapter 7, etc.

Training would allow Vanessa to survive at least one hit from archers and ballistae, and that isn't even including misses.

well, no, i didn't say that you shouldn't completely neglect vanessa. obviously you give her as much EXP as you can while seth is doing his own thing. the EXP gain is not fast enough at this pace, though. so you will never have super powered invincible vanessa like you can have with marcia or jill in FE9, and a flier needs to be that good to oust a mounted jagen-archetype unit from the top spot on the tier list.

[Baldrick]

This tier list would be useless because it would be a conglomeration of a bunch of names of units who can all do the same thing. The point of going for turns is to create a standard by which unit strengths can actually be judged and separated. This idea removes that. If the list is based on making units strong and nothing about them matters except what they're like when strong, you'd be better off tiering the chapters based on difficulty than the units clearing them.

To be fair, if the goal was made clear and rigorously applied, and the loopholes shut (like stopping arena abuse and implementing a maximum turncount allowance), units could be tiered on a max exp/level run just fine. It might be somewhat less objective because scoring is an overall thing rather than on a chapter-by-chapter basis. The factors would likely be level, availability, stats relative to level, and maybe weaponry usable.

Whether anyone actually cared (personally, I would find it tedious, but I find tier lists tedious in general) is another matter.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Baldrick

[Hawkeye]

Snowy, you're getting on RFoF's case for disapproving of your alternate method, but how is that any different than how you feel about the current tiering method? The only difference is that while there are a lot of people who approve of/see the benefit of tier lists as they are, nobody has agreed with you yet. I don't count gamefaqs because we're not on gamefaqs and you're not even providing specific examples, just saying that they exist and hoping we take your word for it. There's nothing wrong with not liking the tier lists, but that hardly makes them bad.

Also, I'm just going to keep saying this despite the fact that I know it's falling on deaf ears, but the only people who talk about how Titania/Jeigans are extremely dramatically better than all other units are the people who are complaining about other people doing that. They're complaining about an opinion that does not exist (obviously Seth is a bit of an exception but I'm sure we can all see that).

Edited April 7, 2013 by Hawkeye

[CT075]

in regards to the actual topic (wrt snowy) i'm still curious to see what he has to say wrt an actual playthrough that disproves literally his entire argument

[Chiki]

well, no, i didn't say that you shouldn't completely neglect vanessa. obviously you give her as much EXP as you can while seth is doing his own thing. the EXP gain is not fast enough at this pace, though. so you will never have super powered invincible vanessa like you can have with marcia or jill in FE9, and a flier needs to be that good to oust a mounted jagen-archetype unit from the top spot on the tier list.

But Seth's very existence gets in the way of Vanessa doing her own thing, like training to avoid archers, ballistae etc. so while Seth is out there doing his own thing, it's costing Vanessa exp. It's like an Energy Drop: giving stuff to one unit affects your other option.

I'm not denying that Seth is the best candidate for exp. If I were doing my own playthrough, I'd do the same. But all I am doing here is making a very modest claim: giving Seth resources has a negative affect on what could have been; that is, even shorter turn counts thanks to a stronger Vanessa.

Hawkeye, Mekkah and Anouleth are two of the people who have that opinion. As well as the owner of the FE9 tier list who refuses to acknowledge that Marcia > Titania.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Olwen

[CT075]

having run through an FE8 LTC myself i'm about 90% sure that there is absolutely no way that vanessa will manage to cut the turns gained by having her improve over seth

[Hawkeye]

But Seth's very existence gets in the way of Vanessa doing her own thing, like training to avoid archers, ballistae etc. so while Seth is out there doing his own thing, it's costing Vanessa exp. It's like an Energy Drop: giving stuff to one unit affects your other option.

I'm not denying that Seth is the best candidate for exp. If I were doing my own playthrough, I'd do the same. But all I am doing here is making a very modest claim: giving Seth resources has a negative affect on what could have been; that is, even shorter turn counts thanks to a stronger Vanessa.

Hawkeye, Mekkah and Anouleth are two of the people who have that opinion. As well as the owner of the FE9 tier list who refuses to acknowledge that Marcia > Titania.

What opinion do I have?

[Chiki]

having run through an FE8 LTC myself i'm about 90% sure that there is absolutely no way that vanessa will manage to cut the turns gained by having her improve over seth

Even if I'm wrong about Vanessa, which I have no issue admitting, this doesn't prove my argument wrong; Horace himself said exp Seth takes could have gone to others to cut more turns.

Hawkeye, I was addressing you.

[Florete]

in regards to the actual topic (wrt snowy) i'm still curious to see what he has to say wrt an actual playthrough that disproves literally his entire argument

On this note, I do want to point out that it's kind of funny Snowy constantly insists on using PoR and Titania for this argument when that is just about the worst example due to the abundance of BEXP in the game and the fact that Titania actually has good growths. I mean, at least in FE7 there's no BEXP and if Marcus gets unlucky enough he actually can drop off around mid-late game. And I don't really know enough about FE8 to judge what Seth does and if overusing him makes any later maps (desert, etc.) tougher.

FE6 Marcus is Top tier but only the 6th best unit currently, 10 doesn't really have a Jeigan aside from Sothe who is ranked really well but still below a few others, Frederick isn't on top...It's really just the 7/8/9 trio that people "gush" over like Snowy claims (and 4?), and even among those he arguably chose the worst one for his argument.

But Seth's very existence gets in the way of Vanessa doing her own thing, like training to avoid archers, ballistae etc. so while Seth is out there doing his own thing, it's costing Vanessa exp. It's like an Energy Drop: giving stuff to one unit affects your other option.

I'm not denying that Seth is the best candidate for exp. If I were doing my own playthrough, I'd do the same. But all I am doing here is making a very modest claim: giving Seth resources has a negative affect on what could have been; that is, even shorter turn counts thanks to a stronger Vanessa.

having run through an FE8 LTC myself i'm about 90% sure that there is absolutely no way that vanessa will manage to cut the turns gained by having her improve over seth

And herein lies the problem. If Vanessa doesn't save more turns than her necessary training costs (and I don't know if she does or not), what was it actually worth? How many turns does Vanessa cost and how many does she save as a result?

[Espinosa]

But Seth's very existence gets in the way of Vanessa doing her own thing, like training to avoid archers, ballistae etc. so while Seth is out there doing his own thing, it's costing Vanessa exp. It's like an Energy Drop: giving stuff to one unit affects your other option.

I'm not denying that Seth is the best candidate for exp. If I were doing my own playthrough, I'd do the same. But all I am doing here is making a very modest claim: giving Seth resources has a negative affect on what could have been; that is, even shorter turn counts thanks to a stronger Vanessa.

Hawkeye, Mekkah and Anouleth are two of the people who have that opinion. As well as the owner of the FE9 tier list who refuses to acknowledge that Marcia > Titania.

Vanessa's poor bases and low con just reinforce her as being a ferry bot at best. I'm doing an efficient runthrough in FE7 right now and massaging Florina's level just ensures she can survive an enemy phase while rescuedropping with flight and 7-8 move, Sain and Marcus are the ones doing the bosskilling, to cite an example from another game. So if we don't penalise Seth for taking away exp from, say, Colm or Neimi, we shouldn't do the same for Vanessa. She can ferry people to places just fine at base stats even, though you might appreciate her levelling up here and there. I'd prioritise a Cav for better combat in indoor chapters, and Artur for staff utility as Bishop/Sage.

Vanessa getting stronger has a strictly negative effect on our early-to-midgame turn counts, and lategame it's all about Warp and Rescue use, doesn't matter that much if you fly or not. You claimed earlier that turn count + reliability is all we should care about, so why are you contradicting yourself now?

That's three people, and you're using whatever it is they said out of context.

[Hawkeye]

Even if I'm wrong about Vanessa, which I have no issue admitting, this doesn't prove my argument wrong; Horace himself said exp Seth takes could have gone to others to cut more turns.

Hawkeye, I was addressing you.

What were you addressing about me? You've quoted dondon and cam.

[dondon151]

I'm not denying that Seth is the best candidate for exp. If I were doing my own playthrough, I'd do the same. But all I am doing here is making a very modest claim: giving Seth resources has a negative affect on what could have been; that is, even shorter turn counts thanks to a stronger Vanessa.

and you should know that i am contesting this claim because FE8 doesn't have BEXP. vanessa doesn't match seth's base str until she's 20/2. but seth would be at a much higher level even if he didn't eat up bosskills everywhere. vanessa at 20/8 ties str with --/5 seth. she's never going to have the same amount of amazing power as seth, and seth doesn't overkill enemies by a huge amount.

warp becomes available in chapter 15, so turns cut by fliers are going to be marginal at best after that point. so you are implying that between chapters 2 and 15, vanessa can both catch up to seth statistically and save more turns than she costs. i frankly don't see it here.