Experimental tier list 2

[Zkirsche]

1-2 range. You answered your own question.

No I didn't, 1-2 range isn't the be all and end all in terms of tier difference, The 1-2 range isn't even particularly useful until part 4 when Sothe is meh anyway, most of Part 1 and DB's Part 3 has enemies with just 1 range, and the very few archers you see in 3-12 can just be focused down on the player phase anyway. If both can counter attack then Volug wins simply because he's more durable and deals more damage most of the time.

Sure he has to eat through grass in the player phase but that doesn't stop him from counterattckng in the enemy phase and IIRC we have a laguz stone for him anyway.

why is 3-12 a 5/5 when you're basically just throwing 2 units in a pool of enemies?

why is 3-13 a 5/5 when you are ORKOing the boss, which by the way, is the same exact objective as 2-E (and that map gets a 1/5)?

I accept the premise for this tier list, but being able to debate what difficulties should be what should be allowed. Please explain these complexity ratings, Olwen.

[Da Bear]

No I didn't, 1-2 range isn't the be all and end all in terms of tier difference, The 1-2 range isn't even particularly useful until part 4 when Sothe is meh anyway, most of Part 1 and DB's Part 3 has enemies with just 1 range, and the very few archers you see in 3-12 can just be focused down on the player phase anyway. If both can counter attack then Volug wins simply because he's more durable and deals more damage most of the time.

Sure he has to eat through grass in the player phase but that doesn't stop him from counterattckng in the enemy phase and IIRC we have a laguz stone for him anyway.

When does the DB get a laguz stone?

Also, if 2 range isn't that common it still exists and if Sothe isn't being used in favor of Volug you lose turns against many of these ranged attackers who inhibit Volug's ability, player phase often spent grassing past part 1 means he won't always be able to kill them which will often cost turns.

And then there's Sothe's having a few chapters before Volug exists.

[dondon151]

it's really just a matter of "does volug save more turns than sothe," and he doesn't really, due to availability and a bad starting position in 1-7

[Narga_Rocks]

Lol, if you disagree with complexity why are you even on this thread? Take it to the philosophy thread.

I disagree with your conclusion. If he disagrees with the concept of applying complexity to a tier list, then he should take it to the philosophy thread. If he disagrees with specific complexity ratings that you posted in the first post of this very thread, it belongs here.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Da Bear]

I believe we would be better off getting initial tiers down before changing things around...

[Zkirsche]

If it's down to 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4 I guess I can see how Sothe is a lot better as he really does make things so much easier. Want to see him in high though.

I believe we would be better off getting initial tiers down before changing things around...

Great and then lots of people from high tier and below are positioned wrong just from incorrect complexity ratings and we then have to go through and change everything character by character when we can just put them in a decent place for a better set of ratings to start with.

[Florete]

I don't know if I just missed this before or something, but how the hell is 2-P more complex than 2-1? Rather, how is 2-P not a 1/5 like 1-5 and 3-7?

[Chiki]

Fixed 2-P to 1/5.

Dondon, it seems you haven't looked at the video closely enough, or I counted wrong. I counted 11 tiles on turn 2 (not turn 1). It is incredibly difficult to find the right positioning even with the Boots, and I doubt it can be done without. For Jill often ended turns with 2-3 units above the threshold needed to clear the chapter even when I was going max range.

Nolan doesn't get transfers like Jill does, and already has far lower base stats than Jill. By the time Jill shows up, Nolan will have levelled up only around 3 times in an LTC playthrough. So his base stats are comparable to what he has my the time this new map shows up. Now we can give him the Energy Drop and Dracoshield as we would Jill. Nolan will have 15.38 strength, 12.4 speed and 12.4 def. Jill, on the other hand, has 15 strength, 19 speed and 17 def. It's trivial to note that Jill is far superior to Nolan when they both show up--not including the fact that Jill has extra move and flight. How much longer would we have to take in maps?

1-6-1: A 3 turn I believe is impossible without Jill flying past bushes and her extra move. Jill is getting more exp than Nolan is in this chapter: not only because she is more reliable but also because she has greater range with enemies.

1-6-2: I don't even know how many turns Jill saves from this one. Can Volug carry Tauroneo? You don't even have Savior at this point, so it would be impractical for Volug to carry Tauroneo. Let's say Jill saves 3 turns here. Though it's worth noting that Nolan gets some extra exp here as it takes longer.

3-6: This is the most important chapter. Both Jill and Nolan will likely be newly promoted. But in your 3-6 chapter, not being able to use Jill's extra move and flight will prevent Nolan from getting as much exp as Jill is. If Jill is able to get to level 15, Nolan will probably be getting to around level 8 or so. For using Nolan requires units such as Volug and Sothe getting more kills than they normally would, and without Jill's flight, Nolan simply won't be covering enough range to get many kills.

3-12: Let's do a comparison of Jill promoting at level 17 and Nolan at level 10. I'm assuming they get the Energy Drop, Dracoshield, Speedwing and Seraph Robe. I'm including Jill's transfers.

Jill: 48.5 HP, 29.9 str, 28.9 skl, 27 spd, 29.7 def.

Nolan: 47 HP, 26 str, 28 skl, 27 spd, 19 def.

Jill has a solid 3.9 str and 10.9 def over Nolan. That coupled with Nolan's lack of flight and move, I don't even know how many turns up lose in 3-12 (maybe something like 2 or 3).

3-13: Nolan and Jill should both be able to double Ike by this point with the 1-E Speedwing. But Nolan cannot take 2 hits from Ragnell, whereas Jill can. And I don't know if Nolan can reach Ike on turn 2. We can't have Volug shove Nolan either as he is needed to shove a laguz in Ike's path.

It's hilarious that you're suggesting an unreliable 2 turn with Boots Tauroneo here. Lol.

4-P, 4-3 and 4-E-1: Hmm... Lol.

Now there's the issue of Haar being > Jill. But Titania can do whatever Haar can with the exception of flight situations. Those chapters come down to 2-E, 3-3 and 3-4. You can replace Haar with Marcia or Tanith or whatever in 3-11.

2-E: Elincia can do what Haar can here and one-round Ludveck with a reliable Stun activation.

3-3: Haar's flight is great here. I think he saves around 3 here?

3-4: I think one can have Pass Ranulf with Savior carry Ike here. I think he saves around 2 turns here?

3-8 and 3-10: one can replace him with transfers Oscar here.

As you can see, Haar's contributions aren't really all that unique or special at all. Jill has more chapters with unique utility.

[Florete]

1-6-2: I don't even know how many turns Jill saves from this one. Can Volug carry Tauroneo? You don't even have Savior at this point, so it would be impractical for Volug to carry Tauroneo. Let's say Jill saves 3 turns here. Though it's worth noting that Nolan gets some extra exp here as it takes longer.

I don't think it's a point for Nolan, but Sothe w/Adept and strong enough forges can clear the map in two turns with a few Shoves. If he fails the Adept proc it just becomes 3 turns.

In other news, I think the last time I heard someone advocate Jill > Haar in this game was Reikken in 2008. Never thought that would come back. Not saying I agree or disagree, just that it's interesting. Although I recall his reasoning including a 3-7 recruitment to the GMs, so it's no surprise it didn't catch on.

[Chiki]

Then Nolan isn't getting much exp at all, so Jill wins either way. Either Jill saves turns or Nolan becomes less reliable to use.

And yeah, I'd go for the 3 turn as an Adept proc is unreliable. Does Sothe have a reliable chance of surviving?

Even with Jill saving just a turn from 1-6-2, Jill is still, at least for me, undoubtedly better than Haar (assuming she gets transfers).

Dropped 3-13 to 3/5 and 3-12 to 4/5.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Olwen

[Florete]

And yeah, I'd go for the 3 turn as an Adept proc is unreliable. Does Sothe have a reliable chance of surviving?

It's been a while since I've done it in hard, but with transfers, his chance of death should be pretty low. Not sure without transfers.

[Chiki]

I don't consider transfers Sothe in this tier list. Though it might be a good idea to.

Btw kirsche, 1-2 range is important in 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-8 and 1-E.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Olwen

[dondon151]

Dondon, it seems you haven't looked at the video closely enough, or I counted wrong. I counted 11 tiles on turn 2 (not turn 1). It is incredibly difficult to find the right positioning even with the Boots, and I doubt it can be done without. For Jill often ended turns with 2-3 units above the threshold needed to clear the chapter even when I was going max range.

i'm putting my money on option 2: you didn't explore all of the options

Nolan sandbagging

nope, nope, nope. this is entirely speculation. there's also stuff like tarvos's +4 def that you conveniently neglected. in 3-13, tauroneo is available for shoving. you should try this out for yourself if you are keen to prove me wrong, otherwise i'm not content with taking your word for it.

It's hilarious that you're suggesting an unreliable 2 turn with Boots Tauroneo here. Lol.

4-P, 4-3 and 4-E-1: Hmm... Lol.

i only mentioned it in passing because vykan used that in his speedrun. the point is that jill clearly does not need boots for 3-13.

what do part 4 maps have anything to do here? if you eschewed haar and used nolan instead, the outcome would be the same. this is not a nolan vs. jill debate.

Now there's the issue of Haar being > Jill. But Titania can do whatever Haar can with the exception of flight situations. Those chapters come down to 2-E, 3-3 and 3-4. You can replace Haar with Marcia or Tanith or whatever in 3-11.

2-E: Elincia can do what Haar can here and one-round Ludveck with a reliable Stun activation.

3-3: Haar's flight is great here. I think he saves around 3 here?

3-4: I think one can have Pass Ranulf with Savior carry Ike here. I think he saves around 2 turns here?

3-8 and 3-10: one can replace him with transfers Oscar here.

As you can see, Haar's contributions aren't really all that unique or special at all. Jill has more chapters with unique utility.

2-E: reliable? elincia's chance to activate stun is 22% at best. i'm pretty sure that her hit rate isn't perfect either. and i don't know if her biorhythm is supposed to be at bad or at worst; if it's at worst, then she has a meager 1% chance to land stun on any given hit assuming that she gained a point of skl beforehand. activating stun in 2-E is about half as reliable as sothe getting an adept proc in 1-6-2.

3-8, 3-10: i don't understand your assumptions with transfer units. transfer units cannot exist concurrently with NT units, but the tier positions of other units requires a certain assumption on this part. which is it? if the assumption is transfer units, why bother tiering NT units at all?

what about 3-5 and 3-11?

and look, you're making up words again. i thought that all we cared about were your three metrics, not some ad hoc definitions that you apparently so despise.

Edited May 5, 2013 by dondon151

[charlie_]

1-6-2 can be 2 turned by Sothe, forges and a single shove too. It's not Jill exclusive.

[Chiki]

i'm putting my money on option 2: you didn't explore all of the options

Your entire reply is half-assed. If I tried a countless number of times to rout the map with Boots and failed due to not being able to reach every enemy, it's a pretty clear that it's probably impossible without Boots Jill.

nope, nope, nope. this is entirely speculation. there's also stuff like tarvos's +4 def that you conveniently neglected. in 3-13, tauroneo is available for shoving. you should try this out for yourself if you are keen to prove me wrong, otherwise i'm not content with taking your word for it.

Nolan will probably want to hold 1-2 range weapons throughout 3-12 if he wants to get as many kills as he can, so Tarvos's defense bonus is questionable.

i only mentioned it in passing because vykan used that in his speedrun. the point is that jill clearly does not need boots for 3-13.

This is a tier list based on reliability and smart decision making. Your argument has no place here at all.

2-E: reliable? elincia's chance to activate stun is 22% at best.

A good example of sophistry here. Elincia has 4 chances to activate Stun (63%).

3-8, 3-10: i don't understand your assumptions with transfer units. transfer units cannot exist concurrently with NT units, but the tier positions of other units requires a certain assumption on this part. which is it? if the assumption is transfer units, why bother tiering NT units at all?

If one wants to seriously play LTC (which is what I'm assuming here) transfers are going to be in play more often than not. Though there is no harm at all in considering characters without transfers.

what about 3-5 and 3-11?

I already said Janaff can take 3-11. I believe he should have enough capacity for Celerity, Pass and Savior.

3-5 is easy with Celerity Titania and Reyson, I think.

not some ad hoc definitions that you apparently so despise.

By utility I mean that she cuts turns in those particular chapters and adds onto reliability, lol.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Olwen

[dondon151]

Your entire reply is half-assed. If I tried a countless number of times to rout the map with Boots and failed due to not being able to reach every enemy, it's a pretty clear that it's probably impossible without Boots Jill.

the great olwen is certainly infallible! or maybe he's just full of himself.

Nolan will probably want to hold 1-2 range weapons throughout 3-12 if he wants to get as many kills as he can, so Tarvos's defense bonus is questionable.

3-6, dude, and if i recall correctly, you didn't glue a 1-2 range weapon to jill in 3-12 either.

This is a tier list based on reliability and smart decision making. Your argument has no place here at all.

correction: your tier list is based on a single strategy. let's not pretend otherwise. the argument is relevant in the hypothetical situation that we're considering to calculate "how many turns jill saves."

A good example of sophistry here. Elincia has 4 chances to activate Stun (63%).

a good example of you not knowing game mechanics here. stun is skl/2 % activation and elincia will always have bad biorhythm going into 2-E, which further reduces skill activations by 5%.

If one wants to seriously play LTC (which is what I'm assuming here) transfers are going to be in play more often than not. Though there is no harm at all in considering characters without transfers.

no - either you assume that transfers are in play, so that character values can be measured concretely, or you assume that transfers are not in play, so that character values can be measured concretely. placing characters using some strange amalgam of what they do given the presence or absence of other transfer units will be representative of no real playthrough. furthermore, your condition is more or less bullshit, because many players who play LTC either can't be bothered to grind an FE9 playthrough or lack the FE9 disc.

I already said Janaff can take 3-11. I believe he should have enough capacity for Celerity, Pass and Savior.

3-5 is easy with Celerity Titania and Reyson, I think.

fair enough on 3-11, but i'm not sure reyson can get enough shoves on 3-5.

Edited May 5, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

the great olwen is certainly infallible! or maybe he's just full of himself.

Actually, I do have evidence that Jill needs Boots in 3-12.

Jill needs to be able to reach all of the enemies at 4:24 that Tauroneo lured for her, and in order to do so she needs the Boots. Otherwise she won't be getting enough kills.

3-6, dude, and if i recall correctly, you didn't glue a 1-2 range weapon to jill in 3-12 either.

I didn't include 3-6 in Nolan's calculations. Nolan's shoddy durability in 3-6 is not even worth considering. Jill with a resources dump can take 2 hits from tigers whereas Nolan can't.

I don't know what strategy Nolan would use for 3-12, but all I was claiming is that there may be an occasion in which Nolan can't rely on Tarvos. And even when he does. Jill still has a grand total of 7 def over him.

correction: your tier list is based on a single strategy. let's not pretend otherwise. the argument is relevant in the hypothetical situation that we're considering to calculate "how many turns jill saves."

Why do I list other units here then? I tier plenty of other units I don't use.

a good example of you not knowing game mechanics here. stun is skl/2 % activation and elincia will always have bad biorhythm going into 2-E, which further reduces skill activations by 5%.

The fact remains that Elincia can duplicate Haar's 1 turn of this chapter. Haar with Hammer is probably going to have low hit, so even if Haar has around a 50% chance to ORKO Ludveck that isn't too much of an advantage over Elincia.

no - either you assume that transfers are in play, so that character values can be measured concretely, or you assume that transfers are not in play, so that character values can be measured concretely.

Or.. you can assume both as different potential characters. What disadvantage is there? Red Fox's tier list does it.

furthermore, your condition is more or less bullshit, because many players who play LTC either can't be bothered to grind an FE9 playthrough or lack the FE9 disc.

Then I list no transfers as a potential option. Why do you take issue with something that clearly has no harm at all on the tier list's validity?

Certainly seems like Titania can reach the boss on turn 1 as she has a grand total of 13 range with a Hand Axe. Reyson has 7 move with a shove.. it should be trivial to reach Titania.

[Grace]

Nolan's shoddy durability in 3-6 is not even worth considering. Jill with a resources dump can take 2 hits from tigers whereas Nolan can't.

Can I pose you a question then: What if Nolan got said resources? And what levels are you assuming for Jill and Nolan?

edit: On average, at equal levels, Jill only has slightly better durability than Nolan even with HP/Def transfer. I'll concede that Jill is likely to be a higher level, but unless you're saying Jill is getting Robe+Shield and the transfers (+12HP/+4Def), she still needs to be 20/1 or equivalent to take two tigers. (41/21.1 HP/Def) Nolan at 20/1 with the Robe and Shield + Tavros Def bonus has 44.6/19.85 Def, which only if both round down means Nolan can't take two tigers. (44/19 is clean KO'ed by two 41's.)

Surely 20/1 Nolan (or equivalent) can't be too much of a stretch for 3-6? And what if Jill doesn't have the transfers? What then? (She needs to be 20/8 on average without a support to be able to take two tigers, with a C/B non-def support she'd have to be 20/6 (this is with the Robe and Shield))

Edited May 5, 2013 by Manix

[Chiki]

Read my posts. I already assumed Nolan is getting the same dump.

Again, I was arguing for Jill with optimal transfers > Haar. Not the other ones. Please read the prior posts.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Olwen

[Grace]

You made a claim that Nolan's durability was bad (can't take two tigers), and I disproved it. Unless you want to argue that Nolan isn't reaching 20/1 or equivalent by 3-6?

Yes I'm aware that if you use both of them they can't both have the resources and one is going to fail out durability but you can't always assume they are both in play, right?

Edited May 6, 2013 by Manix

[Chiki]

If Sothe is 2 turning 1-6, then Nolan has no chance to promote at all at level 20.

[Grace]

If Sothe is 2 turning 1-6, then Nolan has no chance to promote at all at level 20.

Then what if Sothe doesn't? What then? You can't assume all these strats are going to be in play all the time, otherwise the tier list basically becomes:

High Tier:

guys that contribute to getting low turns

Low Tier:

guys that don't

(slightly generalized but you get my drift)

If you assume those strats are in play all the time, this isn't a tier list. It becomes a ratings thread under the guise of a tier list.

I'm out. It's not worth my time trying to argue when you are set in your own ways.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Manix

[Chiki]

Lol, I am doing an experimental tier list with certain criteria taken for granted. Such as: We are going as quickly as possible. If you're going to argue with me at least know the goals of the tier list.

[Anouleth]

Then what if Sothe doesn't? What then? You can't assume all these strats are going to be in play all the time, otherwise the tier list basically becomes:

High Tier:

guys that contribute to getting low turns

Low Tier:

guys that don't

(slightly generalized but you get my drift)

If you assume those strats are in play all the time, this isn't a tier list. It becomes a ratings thread under the guise of a tier list.

I'm out. It's not worth my time trying to argue when you are set in your own ways.

That is the entire point of this tier list, if you had read the first post: units are tiered based on the number of turns that they save.

[Vykan_12]

I don't want to get too involved in this, but I am rather intrigued how Jill managed to rise so high her transfer self is actually above Haar.

If it's not too much to ask, can someone break down how she's being used, what items/transfers/skills she's getting, what levels she's expected to be at various important chapters (eg/ 1-E, 3-6, 3-12)? I'm just really surprised she can get levelled enough on hard mode to be more useful than Haar, let alone even top tier.

Like one thing I noticed is you guys talking about a Jill 2 turn on 1-6-2. That requires Jill to have 17 str and 19 spd, and I had trouble achieving that on easy mode. Then after giving her a seraph robe, dracoshield and loads of BEXP to artifically increase her level, she still had durability issues in 3-6. Of course something like an A support with Volug or a more defensive approach in 3-6 could maybe compensate for that.