Shipping Mafia - Rule 9a invoked for universal loss

[Elieson]

Quick while I'm still here.

SB and Grass; I'm pretty sure I made a post regarding SB not having anything useful, as well as Grass for his Shinori lynch comment (which I'm not dismissing yet).

If I didn't say that I felt thy were scummy beause of that, I implied it (or rather, here is me saying "I feel they are scummy, and IMO haven't improved beyond that point")

[Grace]

Got it Elie. Still think your case on me is grasping so. You may want to claim to me during the night if you don't wanna be shot, just a fair warning

[Elieson]

Yea I could definitely do that with you; I don't really wanna blow that out into the open

[Grace]

well seeing as how I really don't need to have my vote on Elie if I might be shooting him, let's move back to this

##Unvote

##Vote: Strege

yep

[Grace]

I might go collect claims during the night, but only if people feel they can trust me and/or I'm gonna shoot them

[BBM]

Elie, why are you still voting Manix, since your last post implied you no longer thought he was scum?

Looking at Ether's posts, his first vote is for Grass. He votes him due to being part of the votepile on Manix, but never really explains why the votepile is bad in the first place, or why Grass is worse than the other people who voted for him. After that he votes me for harping too much about Shinori lying, but other than that being sort of a misrep, he also says later that his latter votes don't really mean much, and also doesn't really comment on much of anything, just handwaving it as a misunderstanding.

[Grace]

random sidenote:

More Manix fun. Is this really something that needs to be called out so early in the game? It's been almost one Day phase and you're already calling potshots as if you're the unanimously agreed on town-leader or something.

oh the irony

vig is a great role for a town leader btw, you just gonna avoid all the blocks and redirection roles.

[Grassbridger]

Vig is also a great fake claim for mafia to make to be town leader, since it has a kill...

[Grace]

it really isn't: because trying to explain the lack of extra kill each night will get suspicion on you

[Grace]

also watcher is on me to confirm any visitors so be claiming blocked with no visitors should be outed, etc

[Elieson]

Yea it's not the best scum fake if there aren't multiple kills, especially during D1.

Now SK though, that's a potential

[Grace]

claiming vig as SK is lame because as vig you're number one target for the mafia and putting yourself front and center is a huge risk as SK

[BBM]

As someone who's claimed Vig as SK (and won ), it's a gambit you make later in the game, not on D1, and especially not in a situation where it isn't even necessary to claim.

[Elieson]

As someone who's claimed Vig as SK (and won ), it's a gambit you make later in the game, not on D1, and especially not in a situation where it isn't even necessary to claim.

Proudest moment in your life, I sweer

Yea I guess that's true though Manix; either way, claiming a killing role sets you up to be killed by one side or another

[scorri]

Hrm, ok.

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Shinori has been acting in such a way as to make my read on him go away. He's been pretty actively scumhunting and seems to be townie to me.

Strege on the other hand, I'm less happy with. As I pointed out in my last post, some of the things he's been saying just aren't adding up. He's pushing on me for reasons that are no longer really valid, he's being wishy washy on SB, and currently has his vote on someone he claimed he no longer was viewing as scummy. He's had four posts, one of which was RVS, one of which was a question for SB, and the other two were focused largely on SB and me, ignoring pretty much everything else going on in the thread. He commented on the whole "did mafia know their alignment N0" thing, but he didn't comment on the people who were talking about it.

Besides Strege, I'm not sure who else I'd be ok with lynching. I'll try and reread the thread.

Reminder for people as to how I operate with reads: If I don't mention you in a post, you're probably either a null or town read. Enjoy.

[BBM]

Votals:

Bananas (2): Grassbridger, Strege

BBM (1): Ether

Ether (2): Xinnidy, SB

Shinori (2): Balcerzak, Kay

Strege (3): Manix, BBM, Scorri

Manix (2): Blitz, Elieson

Balcerzak (1): Shinori

Grassbridger (1): SB

Not Voting (1): Cam

If we don't get an extension, we've got 4.5 hours left. We're sort of spread all over the place, with a 4-way tie for 2nd place in votes. Grass also hasn't explained why he thinks SB is lying about being Watcher, since he's posted since then and hasn't unvoted.

[Grassbridger]

What? I never saw that claim.

<rereads iso>

...

...

I am bad with subtle claims. Crumbing early is fine but if you're not explicit later I'll miss it...

##Unvote

##Vote Strege because I have null or townreads on others with at least 2 votes. Gotta run, might be back before phas but might not.

[Shinori]

I'm gonna request that if Balc doesn't do anything through the night he get vigged to be frank.

[eclipse]

I got multiple requests for an extension, so here you go~!

New phase end is 5/8/13 at 9:00 PM HST

TO FIX THE TEXT BOX:

1. Look at the upper left corner of all those tools.

2. Click on that thingy that looks like a switch (right above the Bold option).

3. ENJOY~!

I'll let that one slide, Cam, as the "edit" occurred within a minute of the post. . .don't do it again!

[Ether]

To start off with, ##Unvote

Man, and people wonder why I don't play this game. I'm too shit to even manage to not get myself as a very real lynch possibility on D1. Whatever, either I'll get fed up with it and sub out with a vow to really never play again this time, or I'll die within the next phase or two, and probably vow to never play this game again.

Anyway, since SB was the only one who really seemed to make a direct stab at me, I'll respond to that(It's on page 8, I'm not quoting because quotes are fucked up now and I'm not dealing with it... actually we'll see if this works) http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=39840&page=8#entry2387826

-I didn't like how quickly people piled on Manix because the votes all came within a really short timespan, with pretty much nothing behind them. I didn't like how pushy he was being about RVS and voted him for that, but aside from scorri, no one else really seemed to feel that way about it, and she wasn't even one of the ones who voted him.

-Second point is the same as the first. I voted grass because he added a third vote to a wagon that really had no reason to be a wagon. I dislike piles of votes showing up for no real apparent reason.

-I backed off of grass because he explained why he put his vote on Manix(which is why I voted him). I thought the votes on shinori were excessive because I didn't see anything scummy out of him. A read in that instance was pointless because if I don't say "btw this guy is scum/town" while I'm talking about them, chances are it's a null read. Like I said, I dislike wagons without substance behind them. Hell, if I had the choice without getting lynched for it, I would never participate in D1. I get the reasoning behind it, but I have never actually gotten useful reads on someone off of D1 unless they were wearing a big shiny hat that says scum on it.

-My latter votes didn't mean much of anything. If you think that's scummy, good on you. I voted things that made me feel uneasy, not necessarily scumreads, because I had no scumreads.

Now then, since clearly my inability to read people is a problem(wow, people didn't know that I couldn't get reads? Do you even know who you are asking to play?) I will be considering subbing out, and will hopefully make a decision by the end of the day. As for addressing things outside this post, sorry, but I don't have anything to say on anyone, aside from Bal and Blitz have been even more absent than me, and that isn't a good thing.

tl;dr It takes me a few days atleast to actually develop opinions on people unless they are massively obvious, hence why I always say I can't keep up with games anymore. Take the fucking hint. Anyway, if you're going to kill me, I would atleast like it if you would wait until D2 to do so, since the wording on my role is strange and it could be one of two things, which it is I'm not quite sure yet. Also, since there is no real reason not to put it out there at this point, anyone with terrible luck can contact me during the night.

[BBM]

If you're not having fun, then it's your choice whether or not you want to drop out, but I don't really think just struggling a bit is a reason to drop out. Mafia, like anything else, is something you have to work at if you want to do well.

Anyways, I'm sort of disappointed that Ether doesn't have any reads yet, but his tone sounded genuine and his defence, at least, was good.

[Elieson]

Ahh shbits I was distracted and didn't even think that I was still voting for Manix.

##Unvote

And with an extension in order, in comes a reread.

a scumread claimed watcher not what I was expecting gahhhhhh

[Balcerzak]

I had a fair amount of IRL stuff I've been taking care of from Sunday through Today, but when I got back home tonight, eclipse gave me a polite reminder over IRC to not forget about the game, so here I am. (Yes, I know I made a few posts here and there elsewhere on SF, but they weren't the kind of things that needed dedicated hours of threadcombing to put together.) Also, for the record, I still haven't finished catching up, but hopefully there's enough content here that it can stand on its own until I collect the attention span to finish the remaining pages of thread, and actually continue to make useful commentary instead of just glazing over with lol-skimming.

Going to start off by going back to where my vote currently is at, which was on Shinori.

Summary of the situation:

BBM: "Shinori, are you referring to N0 bullshit in general, or specifically this game?"

Shinori: "My response was that Blitz had did this too and I didn't really like that. However that is generaly blitz fishing. He does that every game in OC. So when I told BBM it was general stuff I wasn't lying."

At the time on Saturday, it still felt like you were trying to use weasely justification here. The correct answer would habe been 'both', but instead you were frustratingly obfuscating. I guess there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but at that point, I thought leaving my vote where it was was fine for a continued sense of pressure and keeping you interested in producing content. Honestly, it might have helped if at the time I was active I'd managed to get some votes on me, because in D1, as town, it's always my hardest day. With worry hanging over my head in the form of votes, I tend to pay greater attention, and less apt to fad out till the N1 hits and the "fuck it, let's see what we can collect on the grand reread".

Anyway, after my last string of relatively self-explanatory posts, we had more Shinori/BBM back and forth, with what were probably a lot of misunderstandings on both sides. In addition to the already discussed to death BBM's "I'm town, why would I care about giving away my alignment" extrapolated back to N0 positions I also thought there was another misunderstanding that this time slipped under the radar, at this point from Shinori's side of the arguing.

And since I didn't know what would happen with me stating who I was pairing with I'd much rather not give out that info for free.

Was in reply to

I told anyone who told me one or more of their targets the same amount of my targets, sometimes more. I saw it as an even information trade, just as one might trade whether their role was active or passive with someone else.

Now I don't know if the stunt Blitz pulled on Shinori was the same kind of information trade that BBM was discussing or not, which means maybe this was irrelevant, but from here it looks like neither party were really closely reading the posts the other was making durin that whole segment.

After this I kind of am leaving my post as mostly just the sort of "notes to self" form that I often put together, because otherwise it's gonna take me another who knows how many hours before I can actually hit the POST button, and I'm honestly kind of exhausted tonight already.

---

Strege #94 leaps on the SB bandwagon, and Shinori was already getting shit about his SB vote. Would scum do that? Honestly don't know that, and I have no Strege meta to help. I also am not really seeing the appeal of the SB push from either Shinori or Strege, so... Also worth noting, Strege brings up interesting point "If scum knew their alignment than scummy behaviour can be detected from N0, but if they didn't then changes in behaviour between N0 and now are more important." This is going to be a little hard to judge though, particularly since OC and NOC styles can be entirely different to begin with, but it might be worth keeping an eye on, if we only compare N0 with N1, N2, N3 etc.?

Grassbridge #95 "##Vote BBM for saying that Manix's posts had too much logic in them."

Wow... This post also helps starts up the discussion of whether BBM "slipped" when he was discussing about how he was town N0. Not quite sure what to make of that just yet. (BBM's post #129 answers this clearly, to my mind. Also went back and found the offensive post in question: BBM's #80 which said "Looking over Manix's posts, his logic regarding RVS and stuff has been sound, but I feel like too many of his posts have just been logic." fmpov the "just logic" section is the big take away here.) I do not feel comfortable with this vote at all.

SB #103 seems incredibly solid. Puts together a well-thought out case from voting Grass. Perhaps I'm letting my negative reading of Grass cloud my judgement here, and I probably should go back and make sure everything cross-checks out okay.

Kay's first memorable post (first post?) is #105, which is really harsh on both BBM and on Shinori, though she ends up voting the latter.

Grassbridger #107 combines OMGUS with deflection, as he doesn't answer any of SB's accusations against him, and merely attacks a (admittedly) kind of weak line of reasoning SB included about Shinori. Bananas seems to cover this up rather well in the following post.

scorri's #115 bothers me. This is probably the weakest of any votes on the Shinori train to that point. Not sure if opportunistic scum, or just sloppy town, but given this, and the Kay vote, at a time when the Shinori wagon probably should have been dying down (though maybe this is just my opinion based on retrospect?) makes me really feel hesistant to lynch him.

BBM #132 "I also sort of like the case against SB so ugh ##Unvote" BBM #78 "Even disregarding the Blitz vote, I don't like his SB vote." What happened between then and then? I don't think Shinori ever really addresses SB at all during this time (scorri mentions this in her #120) BBM, please explain what prompted your about face here please?

Also, I am going to use this time to

##Unvote:

##Vote: Grassbridger

I'll see how much more of the thread I can plug through properly (instead of the quick skim through for basic gameflow) I can still make tonight.

[Grassbridger]

Bal: I don't think SB "covered" my attack well in the next post; I saw it as more of the same bad logic (as I've said several times that maybe you haven't read yet). I did defend myself against some of what he said, and more in later posts.

##Unvote (Strege)

I made this vote in a rush when I thought the phase was ending. I'll take some time to process recent events tomorrow, in around 12 hours.

[Strege]

A lot of content to sift through now; let me know if I miss anything.

Why do I need to prove myself? What do I have to prove?

But lets see...

Alright. This is literally your only mention of why you find me scummy. So, lets see. I'm voting Shinori, have been pressuring him, and still enjoy my vote there for now. So unless you have new reasons why you think I'm scummy, I don't see any reason why I need to prove anything to you. You, on the other hand, claim you're feeling better about SB but you're not moving your vote because your reasons are vague. You then say that I need to prove myself, that you don't think Manix is scum, and that you agree with SB but maybe not.

I was mostly referring to you saying Shinori was pushing BBM, which I didn't see, and after going through your ISO about three times I just noticed that you actually addressed that. Wow. That was dumb and I shouldn't have written it. That said, I didn't like your vote on Shinori in this post because your questions were fairly redundant, which is one technique to artificially inflate one's reasoning, and because of the finality of the last sentence, which indicated that you weren't open to voting for other scumreads (you still seem excessively focused on Shinori and on me, the only person pressuring you if I'm not mistaken).

Regarding the post I've quoted, you present my arguments in an excessively confusing manner. I had decent reasons to think SB was scum at the time of posting, my devil's-advocate arguments for town!SB weren't solid, and I didn't have better scumreads, so I felt I had reason enough to keep the vote on him. Further, I did not "agree with SB but maybe not" -- I was citing the sources of my feelings about Ether, and I don't see how that's scummy. Was this post meant to be accusatory? I honestly don't understand what it's trying to accomplish starting at the words "You, on the other hand" -- the last sentence especially, since its first two points are redundant and the last one is misrepresentative.

I pretty much picked someone at random for my RVS vote. I didn't really bother looking for alignment stuff on N0 because after talking to a few people I realized that most people, if not all, didn't have an alignment or role yet. So the only way I've factored in N0 has been to try and find odd changes in behaviour from N0 to D1, which is why I was pushing Shinori for a while.

Now, ##Vote: Strege

In his first content-post, he calls out SB and Scorri. What he said about Scorri there is true, but in his most recent post, I feel like he's not really making any attempt to update his reads with what has happened to that point. It's true that at the point of his first post, all Scorri had really done was say her viewpoint on RVS, but by that next post, she'd said stuff about Shinori and produced some content. Not a lot, admittedly, but enough that his original point was no longer applicable. As for SB, he says that SB is scummy for particularly focusing on Cam for being inactive when others have been so as well, but he's sort of misrepping SB here. SB was pressuring Cam for having low content despite making posts- the exact same thing that Strege is calling SB and Scorri out for. His stance on SB in the latest post was weird because he pointed out good stuff about SB while still saying it wasn't enough and keeping his vote there. And then later in the post he also agrees with SB, his vote, on something. It's not something that's disallowed, but still kinda offputting. He also has a post in the middle which is literally just a one-line question, which is bad because there were around 24 hours and 40 posts between his first post and that one, so quoting one post out of all that and asking a question about that is bleh. Both that question, and the one to Elie in the recent post, are kind of just there and don't seem to have much of a purpose.

My reasons for not taking my vote off scorri, being uncertain about SB, and agreeing with SB's points are mentioned above. I didn't vote SB just for focusing on Cam; he had no other reads, which many other people did, didn't contribute anything to the discussion of Cam, which other people did, and otherwise seemed to be contributing the bare minimum of inconspicuous town participation. I remember you (it might have been someone else) reading his disagreement with Grassbridger's logic in this post as him expressing suspicion of Grassbridger -- I don't read it that way. Cam wasn't making an effort to blend in, but scorri and SB seemed to be. Also, I don't think me asking simple questions is scummy. At best I'm not really gaining any towncred for activity and at worst I'm being slightly obtrusive. I was trying to get some reads by reading through old stuff and making sure I understood what was being said, at least on a superficial level. My inactivity is a legitimate point against me. All I can say is that I was trying to produce reads and, as people have mentioned, D1 hasn't been giving them up easily.

I can agree on some of the points there (mainly the stuff about how he said I was improving but didn't move his vote. Would like to know what this:

is supposed to mean too.

Bleh quotes suck. When I said "SB telegraphed that he was looking after Ether -- not sure what to make of that exactly" I was referring to you saying something along the lines of "I'm going to read Ether's ISO" and then coming back with a huge post about you reading Ether as scum. I realized that series of events could suggest confirmation bias if you were town, but was hoping someone could chime in with input on if that actually affected a scumread. I still don't know, and I'll still solicit analysis, but I've given up trying to figure that out since it doesn't seem like a huge deal.

Bold added for emphasis. I'd lynch him right now. He's leaning slightly closer to scum and I could see possible scum!Strege being more apprehensive about posting so yeah (he promised better activity and didn't deliver much so :/)

I've tried to avoid meta thus far because it feels weird and cheaty, but if my apprehension to post is indicative to you of me being scum you should skim the Avatar game (the only other game I've played on here). I was town but I got voted late D1 for weird sporadic posting and... oh.

Honestly, though, I have demonstrated activity if not content, and you've said that content is hard to come by right now.

Uh, isn't that what I was just doing?

No, the way it looked like you were accusing him based on not wanting to reveal an alignment he didn't know was nonsense. I didn't mean to say that everything you said about him was.

Also, no, I don't particularly think it's a bus, but I do think it's likely that one of you is scum.

Why are you suspicious of BBM for making an assumption that you made, too?

I was suspicious of BBM because of his level of confidence when we didn't know anything. I identified two modes of play and chose one, which I've admitted I did poorly. I don't think the confidence thing is scummy, especially not after a few pages early in the phase, but it was weird so I pushed it.

- ed1 from quicktopic

having reminded myself of that yeah something still doesn't feel right with Strege, as previously explained

well seeing as how I really don't need to have my vote on Elie if I might be shooting him, let's move back to this

##Unvote
##Vote: Strege

yep

I don't blame you for finding my posts kind of scummy but unless I missed something all of your reasoning for lynching me are based on general tone and inactivity. Do you have any better argument against me? Do you have any better reason to lynch anyone?

Hrm, ok.

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Shinori has been acting in such a way as to make my read on him go away. He's been pretty actively scumhunting and seems to be townie to me.

Strege on the other hand, I'm less happy with. As I pointed out in my last post, some of the things he's been saying just aren't adding up. He's pushing on me for reasons that are no longer really valid, he's being wishy washy on SB, and currently has his vote on someone he claimed he no longer was viewing as scummy. He's had four posts, one of which was RVS, one of which was a question for SB, and the other two were focused largely on SB and me, ignoring pretty much everything else going on in the thread. He commented on the whole "did mafia know their alignment N0" thing, but he didn't comment on the people who were talking about it.

Besides Strege, I'm not sure who else I'd be ok with lynching. I'll try and reread the thread.

Reminder for people as to how I operate with reads: If I don't mention you in a post, you're probably either a null or town read. Enjoy.

Addressed all of this above, except for the bit where you seem to misrep me by saying "[he] currently has his vote on someone he claimed he no longer was viewing as scummy" when what I said was "SB's improved a bit in my eyes". Did you get that out of me agreeing with him about Ether?

Me not commenting on the people who were talking about knowing their alignment or not N0 isn't scummy if you mean I didn't join in a speculative discussion, since one didn't exist -- my impetus for saying what I did was that people were assuming contradictory things and it seemed like something that would cause problems down the road. If you mean that I didn't talk about my reads on people then it's redundant and I've tried to explain my lack of reads earlier in this post.

Hopefully I didn't miss anything in regard to defending myself. Sorry for the wall of text. I'll give the thread another read and return with some proper reads.