Alternate HM tier list

[Da Bear]

Top Tier

Sumia

Cordelia

Olivia

Lucina (Avatar)

Frederick

I put Lucina up there because she can change her class or inherit Galeforce from the Avatar.

Olivia is kind of tough because many maps can be completed just as fast with or without her... Then there's her terrible durability and mediocre move...

I don't know if high is the best place for her.

[charlie_]

Half of the stuff Olivia does can be replicated by buyable Rescue anyway.

[PKL]

Not always.

[charlie_]

I didn't say always.

[Chiki]

Maybe Maribelle can go up to top tier for being able to use Rescue to change to Peg knight. She can level up more easily than Lissa I think. What level was she?

[Randa]

Three, so they should be about the same level. Same exp gain, similar classes. I think they should be about the same.

[Elieson]

Right, Maribelle is going to level up into a ferocious Pegasus knight, capable of peerless offensive destruction and defenses mirroring that of Grima himself.

Those 9 levels as a Pegasus will be horrible, Olwen.

[charlie_]

Everyone is invincible with 2% dual guards!

[eclipse]

First, drafts and LTC are different. You're given a different set of resources, so characters that may be horrid in one setting are amazing in another (I don't draft FE13, so you're getting something out of FE11. Lena's great for LTC, and not so much for drafts, since Warp is usually banned).

Now, assuming that you're doing LTC, how does MU get to 10/10/15 in time to pass Galeforce to Lucina?

[Chiki]

Everyone is invincible with 2% dual guards!

Lol, I never said that. I said Dual Guards, Tonics and Pair ups and Supports together make her durable.

Are her stats really that appalling at that point in the game?

What do you mean by that, eclipse?

[Elieson]

Without Renown and Anna shopping;

Master Seals:

Ch8

Ch10

Ch11

Buyable at 12

Second Seals:

Ch8

Various post ch14 paralogues

Buyable at Ch16

Assuming you give Avatar the ch8 second seal, when is Maibelle or Lissa steamrolling into Pegasus for Galeforce Access? If you mean to have them go MS->SS into Dark Flier, they still have 10 levels to gain as a promoted unit, utilizing Rescue and not Galeforce for most of Valm.

Moreover, units like Panne, who excel as a Wyvern Rider or other mounted class, won't get access to that until godever unless you milk the various few paralogues by marrying off children, and considering this is absolute LTC, you won't be marrying units like Panne and Nowi and Olivia. All this even gives you is a one chapter go ahead pre16 because Paralogue dancing to access 6, 10, and 16 are already halfway through the game.

Dunno about Lissa or Maribelle as top tier man. I could see Mid tier as a stretch because Rescue, but not top because their low mag until LATEGAME is gonna hurt your Obsession for LTC.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Elieson

[Chiki]

Pair ups, tonics etc. fix magic.

Any more opinions on Maribelle (and Lissa)?

[Redwall]

First, drafts and LTC are different. You're given a different set of resources, so characters that may be horrid in one setting are amazing in another (I don't draft FE13, so you're getting something out of FE11. Lena's great for LTC, and not so much for drafts, since Warp is usually banned).

I could see this tier list being relevant as a rough guideline of which characters to prioritize in drafts adopting similar rulesets; but yeah, like you said, I don't think the goal of this tier list is to be of use in drafts that, say, restrict Rescue and Galeforce usage (which seem to be the norm these days).

I dunno about Maribelle and Lissa being reclassed to Pegs...if one of them uses the C8 Second Seal, there's obviously an opportunity cost (Avatar), and by the time the C12 SS is available, the enemies will have become somewhat strong, while Lissa and Maribelle will have to deal with E-ranked lances. Additionally, getting them to Lv 15 Dark Flier will probably take way too long without favoritism that is better used on the top tier units.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

There's no one who can practically reclass to Dark Flier other than the Avatar, it seems.

How high should they go based on staff utility? Magic isn't a big deal in this game at all, and Rescue is buyable.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Olwen

[eclipse]

Lemme clarify: In a LTC FE11 list, Lena is good because she comes early, has Warp, and can use Warp immediately (Wendell needs to Barrier a bit before doing so). In drafts, Warp is banned. Since Lena's worth is tied to her Warp staff, and because she's nothing special when reclassed, she goes down quite a ways.

Another FE11 example are the Wolfguard. Usually, no one pays attention to Roshea/Vyland; in drafts, they're about mid-pick, due to their joining time.

I could see this tier list being relevant as a rough guideline of which characters to prioritize in drafts adopting similar rulesets; but yeah, like you said, I don't think the goal of this tier list is to be of use in drafts that, say, restrict Rescue and Galeforce usage (which seem to be the norm these days).

I dunno about Maribelle and Lissa being reclassed to Pegs...if one of them uses the C8 Second Seal, there's obviously an opportunity cost (Avatar), and by the time the C12 SS is available, the enemies will have become somewhat strong, while Lissa and Maribelle will have to deal with E-ranked lances. Additionally, getting them to Lv 15 Dark Flier will probably take way too long without favoritism that is better used on the top tier units.

I don't think it should be considered for drafts, as they use a completely different ruleset.

[Chiki]

We can simply list Galeforceless Sumia and Cordelia and Rescueless Maribelle and Lissa to account for these rules. Problem solved.

I'll update the OP with the rules once I get my laptop back.

[Anouleth]

There's only one lowest possible turn count--but which characters are used for that one? That is left vague.

It doesn't matter which characters are used for it. Boyd doesn't care who fills his position. What matters is that his position can be filled. Therefore, the lowest possible turn count, all options considered, is the same whether you use Boyd or not.

"A unit saves turns if and only if the lowest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without their presence." There is only one answer to what the lowest possible turncount for a chapter is without the presence of a unit. It is an integer. Determining whether or not a character saves turns is simply a matter of comparing numbers. It isn't vague, despite your claims. Just saying it don't make it so.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Anouleth

[Chiki]

It's clearly worse for Boyd if more characters can fulfill one option, and better if fewer characters can fulfill that option.

Boyd is able to get more credit because we only have one alternate. But if there were 5 Mias, Boyd would get less.

[Anouleth]

It's clearly worse for Boyd if more characters can fulfill one option, and better if fewer characters can fulfill that option.

Yes, it is clearly worse, because if another character can do the exact same job as him, he doesn't save any turns. It doesn't matter if two, or three, or thirty characters can do his job, either way, he doesn't save turns.

Boyd is able to get more credit because we only have one alternate. But if there were 5 Mias, Boyd would get less.

Boyd does not get any credit because he does not save any turns. The lowest possible turncount with Boyd present is 6. The lowest possible turncount without Boyd is 6. A character saves turns only if the lowest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without them. 6 is not higher than 6.

Boyd does not share credit with Mia. This is because Boyd does not save any turns. So he has no credit to share.

[Jediabiwan]

Olivia is kind of tough because many maps can be completed just as fast with or without her... Then there's her terrible durability and mediocre move...

I don't know if high is the best place for her.

I agree Olivia should definitely move down. She's incredibly useful for boss maps but I'm not sure how many times she is needed when you have rescue. As for other maps I don't have enough experience using her. Cherche is a good pair up partner to move her around for those key dances and extra durability, especially if you promote her for deliverer. But Olivia still isn't all that durable when leading, and to get that extra mov she has to switch out with Cherche every other turn. She'll have even worse problems keeping up once you get galeforce.

The question is how many turns can she save that rescue can't. I'm sure she can saves some turns that other unit's can't, but I don't know if its enough to be 3rd in high.

[Elieson]

We can simply list Galeforceless Sumia and Cordelia and Rescueless Maribelle and Lissa to account for these rules. Problem solved.

I'll update the OP with the rules once I get my laptop back.

What about the Paralogue 1 rescue?

[Anouleth]

Will there also have to be a Rescueless version of Olivia to account for situations in which Rescue is restricted?

[Jediabiwan]

I don't see the point of teiring without rescue as it can throw off the ratings for a lot of units when you are going at a much different speed. I thought one of the big points of this list was taking rescue into account with the other list vaguely limited.

[Redwall]

If this were Lunatic, I would definitely agree that removing Rescue changes the picture dramatically since the enemies are so much stronger; however, I would be very surprised if this applied to Hard. With the possible exception of Sumia, Rescue's impact on character tierings is only meaningful for the staff users and Olivia.

In the absence of Rescue and Galeforce, the game will be won on the enemy phase, and is done most efficiently with a team that is small enough to reap the benefits of being EXP hogs while large enough to spread out quickly; adding this to Tonics, Pair Up, and Avoid-stacking will mean that the units you use in such a setting shouldn't have their chances of death changed noticeably by Rescue (although again, Sumia might drop since she's so frail).

[Chiki]

Yes, it is clearly worse, because if another character can do the exact same job as him, he doesn't save any turns. It doesn't matter if two, or three, or thirty characters can do his job, either way, he doesn't save turns.

Boyd does not get any credit because he does not save any turns. The lowest possible turncount with Boyd present is 6. The lowest possible turncount without Boyd is 6. A character saves turns only if the lowest possible turncount for a chapter is higher without them. 6 is not higher than 6.

Boyd does not share credit with Mia. This is because Boyd does not save any turns. So he has no credit to share.

I think you just take a very rigid, literal sense of my definition. That is not my intention. My definition is left vague to allow for having different teams and potential other clears. It does not say in the definition what team you're using, if you're in a draft, etc. Hence why I give credit to other potential clears.

My definition uses the word the. But it is not clear which lowest possible turncount we are aiming for. Under what context?

You can take that sense, if you so wish, but that is not the way I see my definition. For otherwise, the tier list would be useless in finding the worth of other characters, and useless for helping drafters.

Going back on topic. I'll be updating the OP shortly, but does everyone agree with tiering Rescueless Olivia, Lissa and Maribelle and tiering Galeforceless Female Avatar, Sumia and Cordelia?