Wallace: is he THAT bad?

[Doga]

Wallace is a cool old man who happens to wander in the middle of a battle, and is pretty neat at fighting those bandits in the chapter he joins in Lyn's Mode, but there's no practical reason to use him when Oswin exists.

Of course, it's not like you CAN'T use him. Pretty much anyone is viable in most modes anyhow.

[Shadow Mir]

How much of Lyn's mode did you abuse Serra?

Are you going at the game super slow?

What do you intend to do with these healers anyway?

You got Pent if you really want someone to make use of the special Physic and Warp staff. If you need another user for Restore usage, then you can promote Lucius and have access right away. Oh, and he would be much easier to train too. High magic and good enough speed to double pretty much everything. Oh, and high magic + auto C rank. Not too far off from being a replacement to Pent with those range staffs. I dunno. I find it hard to justify using any healer these days. They take so much time to be useful for anything other than early game healing. Eventually, you have units who just 1RKO most everything in their path while avoiding lots of damage in FE7.

About wallace though... he is pretty annoying to try picking up.

Well, I'd hate not having a staff user until I promote a mage, particularly in games like this one where elixirs are expensive *and* only sold in a couple shops in the game, one of which isn't until near the end of the game and the other two are secret shops, considering that by midgame, vulneraries aren't healing enough for when I DO need it.

[MacLovin]

Dorcas: He has good STR and HP and if he will be warrior he will have even lower SPD than Wallace on the same level. He also will be probably promoted at last(Raven, Guy and even Barte wants hero crest more). His RES suck. Only thing when he is better than Wallace is MOV, but nothing more. It's sad to talk, because he is good men.

Rebecca: After moment of consternation she is a little bit better than Wallace. Comes quickly, good support to Lowen, doubles enemy, bow(sometimes awful, but good against wyvern). Only thing what hurts is extremely low DEF. I will erase she form this list.

-Dorcas is better due to being around when you want him.

-Ties for second best hero crested unit vs Guy. Guy's got str problems and energy rings aren't there until the last chapters. Dorcas also gets the best weapon type and has decent bases and Lyn Mode as an option. He also gets some utility in smashing armours in some early chapters. Compaing Wallace to him is a joke, since Wallace comes late and Dorcas can easily take a speedwing if we're talking HNM and then double everything with 10 spd and take the brave axe if needed. Not to mention the fact that he exists for the most chapters.

-Rebecca has little competition for one of 2/3 orion bolts, and the brave bow comes around midgame along with a killer bow or two. Archers/Nomads have alot more potential than folks give them credit for in this game due to the sheer amount of resources to work with. Granted that Rath is the only one that helps efficiency-type runs. Rebecca chips early on and Wil KO's pegs in NLOC.

Marcus is easy to use early on. Bosskills give him 45 exp, any other unit can get a level by killing 2-3 enemies. He also benefits from use of the early dracoshield and perhaps a speedwing to keep him in tiptop shape for HHM lategame.

-Renault can help in LTC/Efficieny runs by warping/rescueing in a pinch. He can also serve as a filler with fortify in any run.

-Nino adds to the exp rank in ranked runs, and some enjoy using her for fun.

-Wallace has numerous issues and just comes too late and right before a bunch of open maps/maps with heavy terrain that don't serve a 5 move unit very well.

-Prissy and Serra can both be used if you have the deployment slots. Prissy can rescue/drop and catch up to Marcus/Lowen/Florina/Sain/Kent to heal then and Serra could potentially have a higher staff rank.

You might want to specify what sort of playstyle you're talking about. Wallace does have his uses, but they aren't really applicable to something like absolute-Ltc and maybe ranked.

I've used him, and he's kinda mediocre when 10 spd doubles 80% of the game and a trained Kent/Sain have enough durability to not worry about dying.

[bottlegnomes]

Ignore. I can't read.

Edited June 9, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Vorena]

Well, I'd hate not having a staff user until I promote a mage, particularly in games like this one where elixirs are expensive *and* only sold in a couple shops in the game, one of which isn't until near the end of the game and the other two are secret shops, considering that by midgame, vulneraries aren't healing enough for when I DO need it.

This is why I said for early game healing. You can obtain your first guiding ring about chapter 17/18. Lucius if you used him in Lyn mode will have a nice start even at join, then you have some time to get him some levels. By this time, you could potentially evolve him early and still end up with a decent unit. The healer duo on the other hand are not even ready to promote yet. You'd have to be doing some pretty heavy usage on Serra in Lyn mode or going fairly slow with priscilla to get her some levels. Otherwise, you won't see them getting decent combat stats until like lv15-20 which won't happen until you probably already have like 2nd or 3rd guiding ring by now.

They are necessary units early on to have at least one. But eventually you could easily have Pent & Lucius take over all the higher end staff usage. Or just have Erk/Canas take over healing duty when need be.

[Sublime Manic]

• Priscilla or Serra( because training them both in single run is too tiring)

Let's just say Raven is worse, too, with similar logic that using a bunch of attackers means using Raven too wouldn't be worth it.

Contextualizing Priscilla and Serra against each other like this is ridiculous. If Serra on her own merits is a better unit than Wallace, and Priscilla on her own merits is better than Wallace, they're both better than Wallace.

You were asked to list units worse than Wallace. The comparison is just with Wallace. Not with other units that can fulfill their same role.

[Shadow Mir]

This is why I said for early game healing. You can obtain your first guiding ring about chapter 17/18. Lucius if you used him in Lyn mode will have a nice start even at join, then you have some time to get him some levels. By this time, you could potentially evolve him early and still end up with a decent unit. The healer duo on the other hand are not even ready to promote yet. You'd have to be doing some pretty heavy usage on Serra in Lyn mode or going fairly slow with priscilla to get her some levels. Otherwise, you won't see them getting decent combat stats until like lv15-20 which won't happen until you probably already have like 2nd or 3rd guiding ring by now.

They are necessary units early on to have at least one. But eventually you could easily have Pent & Lucius take over all the higher end staff usage. Or just have Erk/Canas take over healing duty when need be.

I'm generally opposed to early promotion, for one, and second, I'd feel my army benefits more from a healer being able to defend themselves when promoted than it'd benefit from a mage who gets the ability to heal on promotion

[MacLovin]

in HNM, early promotion doesn't really hold much back.

In HHM, it's kind of dependant on what character we're talking about.

Sain is alright with it, and so are Kent and Oswin. Not so sure about Lowen though.

Heath/Rath like it for some boosts and Canas like +4 AS, etc.

[ZemZem]

Lowen's bases are pretty good, but unless he's fairly blessed in STR and SPD, he's not a fan of promoting at level 10.

[Espinosa]

It depends on what you want to do with Lowen, I guess. If you want him to tank WKs with an Iron Axe on a mountain or something, might as well promote him early; if you want a competent endgame fighter, then you might prefer to wait.

[Vorena]

I'm not talking about lv10 promotion. I mean more along the lines of lv14-15 promotion time period. The enemies in this game are at very low levels, Take a look at our HHM stats thread. At chapter 16, enemies are still at level ~6 for the most part. And it continues to be very low compared to your units for pretty much the whole game.

Consider a unit that is lv18 going to lv19. A lv9 enemy unit unpromoted will only yield 7 exp points after defeating it. That's 14 enemies you have to defeat in order to gain an extra level. If you have multiple units that you are tryign to train unpromoted you'll be sitting around waiting for that lv20 in hard mode. The gains you get over 5 levels will on average typically be fairly close to the gains you get for promotion gains. You could wait forever with a unit that could be instantly better after promotion gains.

Although, 0% growth runs are completely possible on this game lol

I'd feel my army benefits more from a healer being able to defend themselves when promoted than it'd benefit from a mage who gets the ability to heal on promotion

To me, I see absolutely no difference between the two after promotion. Both healer and mage become the healer+mage hybrid. So, I do not see any differentiation betweem them besides weapon ranks. But, each to their own.

@Wallace:

Has anyone used Wallce in drafts at all?

Edited June 10, 2013 by Vorena

[Tamanoir]

I'm not talking about lv10 promotion. I mean more along the lines of lv14-15 promotion time period. The enemies in this game are at very low levels, Take a look at our HHM stats thread. At chapter 16, enemies are still at level ~6 for the most part. And it continues to be very low compared to your units for pretty much the whole game.

Consider a unit that is lv18 going to lv19. A lv9 enemy unit unpromoted will only yield 7 exp points after defeating it. That's 14 enemies you have to defeat in order to gain an extra level. If you have multiple units that you are tryign to train unpromoted you'll be sitting around waiting for that lv20 in hard mode. The gains you get over 5 levels will on average typically be fairly close to the gains you get for promotion gains. You could wait forever with a unit that could be instantly better after promotion gains.

Although, 0% growth runs are completely possible on this game lol

To me, I see absolutely no difference between the two after promotion. Both healer and mage become the healer+mage hybrid. So, I do not see any differentiation betweem them besides weapon ranks. But, each to their own.

@Wallace:

Has anyone used Wallce in drafts at all?

Well, mages healer have a high risk of mawing their staff rank before the Magic ones...

The problem with Wallace is that Defence is pretty useless in this game. You want avoid more than defensive prowess, and Res more than Def, since Def allows you to at least avoid Status Staff... And ennemies tend to have these annoying poisoned weapons which means even if you don't takes any damages, you'll eventually die of poison...

[Espinosa]

Our HHM stats thread is very incomplete and it seems like nobody has cared to resolve it after all those years. That said, not everybody on HHM can begin ORKOing without a substantial investment and plenty of characters will not turn into anything menacing for the opposition unless you purposely slow down to train them. They could still be useful in a draft though, sure.

It's normal for enemies to be at lv. 6 in chapter 16 because chapter 16 is really just the sixth chapter for Hector's team.

0% growth runs seem possible in every game and, with the exception of, like, Shadow Dragon, you DO go faster and more reliably when growths are on your side.

The benefit of an ex-mage post-promo is that it's easier (and hits your funds less) to bring up a mage than a healer, so a Sage/Bishop who used to be an offensive tome user will have more magic and more range for Warp. This isn't exactly the game where Warp dominates, but it's helpful when you get it, and at least high-Mag staff users can do something with it which your guys who just run around and kill stuff can't boast.

[Shadow Mir]

Our HHM stats thread is very incomplete and it seems like nobody has cared to resolve it after all those years. That said, not everybody on HHM can begin ORKOing without a substantial investment and plenty of characters will not turn into anything menacing for the opposition unless you purposely slow down to train them. They could still be useful in a draft though, sure.

It's normal for enemies to be at lv. 6 in chapter 16 because chapter 16 is really just the sixth chapter for Hector's team.

0% growth runs seem possible in every game and, with the exception of, like, Shadow Dragon, you DO go faster and more reliably when growths are on your side.

The benefit of an ex-mage post-promo is that it's easier (and hits your funds less) to bring up a mage than a healer, so a Sage/Bishop who used to be an offensive tome user will have more magic and more range for Warp. This isn't exactly the game where Warp dominates, but it's helpful when you get it, and at least high-Mag staff users can do something with it which your guys who just run around and kill stuff can't boast.

Though aside from Lucius or Pent, you'd have to go out of your way to get a promoted mage to have any respectable staff rank, let alone the A required for Warp.

I'm not talking about lv10 promotion. I mean more along the lines of lv14-15 promotion time period. The enemies in this game are at very low levels, Take a look at our HHM stats thread. At chapter 16, enemies are still at level ~6 for the most part. And it continues to be very low compared to your units for pretty much the whole game.

Consider a unit that is lv18 going to lv19. A lv9 enemy unit unpromoted will only yield 7 exp points after defeating it. That's 14 enemies you have to defeat in order to gain an extra level. If you have multiple units that you are tryign to train unpromoted you'll be sitting around waiting for that lv20 in hard mode. The gains you get over 5 levels will on average typically be fairly close to the gains you get for promotion gains. You could wait forever with a unit that could be instantly better after promotion gains.

Although, 0% growth runs are completely possible on this game lol

To me, I see absolutely no difference between the two after promotion. Both healer and mage become the healer+mage hybrid. So, I do not see any differentiation betweem them besides weapon ranks. But, each to their own.

@Wallace:

Has anyone used Wallce in drafts at all?

As for anyone having used Wallace in drafts, I doubt it since in Hector mode at least (most drafts I've seen play Hector mode), his map tends to get finished in 2 turns.

As for the rest, I don't really consider early promotion to be that big a difference here since the promotion bonuses aren't insanely good like they were in FE6.

As to the bold: there's the fact the high rank staves are generally more useful than the high rank tomes, as well as the aforementioned problem with raising most promoted magic users' staff ranks.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Sasori]

I used to love Wallace in my first playtrough where I brought him to endgame and never once thought he was terrible. Of course back in those days I still thought that generals where all great units because they looked cool and I managed to get most of my units killed. I completely relied on units like Marcus, Pent, Oswin and such to carry me trough the game.

Once I actually got some skill I realised that Wallace was actually....not very good to put it gently. His personality is still awesome though.

[Raven]

All the units are good to some extent, it's just some are better. Wallace is one of the worst yes, but that doesn't make him bad. If I can use him in my HHM pre-promotes only run then anybody can use him in a normal HHM playthrough.

He makes for an ACE WALL.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Raven

[ZemZem]

@Wallace:

Has anyone used Wallce in drafts at all?

I don't think anyone would take the time to recruit Wallace.

He and Geitz (drafted as a pair) are usually undrafted, anyway.

(Though, I guess he'd have his uses in Lyn's mode drafts.)

[CT075]

i had wallace once upon a time (my team was absolutely awful, like oswin-renault-farina-canas awful)

he helped out pretty substantially (although, as i said, with that team it would take a special kind of awful not to)

[PKL]

0% growths clearly isn't possible in HHM because dondon never finished his run

lol

[Vorena]

^Not sure if you are being serious about that or not. While the commentary runs were done up to chapter 27, the silenced ones are completed and up on his channel.

Final: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woMzLHjvkIA

32x: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11oGatv-I6Y

Just go through his earliest videos and you'll see all of them.

Well, mages healer have a high risk of mawing their staff rank before the Magic ones...

I have no idea what you meant by that first sentence.

Our HHM stats thread is very incomplete and it seems like nobody has cared to resolve it after all those years. That said, not everybody on HHM can begin ORKOing without a substantial investment and plenty of characters will not turn into anything menacing for the opposition unless you purposely slow down to train them. They could still be useful in a draft though, sure.

It's normal for enemies to be at lv. 6 in chapter 16 because chapter 16 is really just the sixth chapter for Hector's team.

0% growth runs seem possible in every game and, with the exception of, like, Shadow Dragon, you DO go faster and more reliably when growths are on your side.

The benefit of an ex-mage post-promo is that it's easier (and hits your funds less) to bring up a mage than a healer, so a Sage/Bishop who used to be an offensive tome user will have more magic and more range for Warp. This isn't exactly the game where Warp dominates, but it's helpful when you get it, and at least high-Mag staff users can do something with it which your guys who just run around and kill stuff can't boast.

Incomplete yes... But, complete enough to get you an idea of the levels characters are at and as far as I know its fairly accurate.

While enemies are at level 6 in chapter 16 the idea is that your units will be at far higher levels than the enemy most of the time. In completely casual runs still clicking by at a fast pace for 4 or 5 star tactics rating, I recall hitting dragon's gate with characters at level 16-17. Getting those extra 3-4 levels takes forever. When you can easily just promote early and still have units at near peak performance.

It depends upon the unit though. Look at average stats, and most units will only miss 1-2 points in most stats from promoting 4 levels early. They easily get those 1-2 stats back through promotion gains typically.

The reason for referencing 0% run being possible was to point out that there isn't a need to get units to have the maximum stats possible and be at level 20/20.

About the mage -> healer vs healer -> mage. Its all a matter of time. Healers still needed to spam staff at the early part of the game to get up that high. Mages just need to spam staff in the later half of the game to get staff ranking up. Its done in draft where you get someone like Canas or Erk to be your warp user. There is enough time between chapters to get these mage -> healers to work. Again, I still see the two routes being very identical.

-Though aside from Lucius or Pent, you'd have to go out of your way to get a promoted mage to have any respectable staff rank, let alone the A required for Warp.

-As for anyone having used Wallace in drafts, I doubt it since in Hector mode at least (most drafts I've seen play Hector mode), his map tends to get finished in 2 turns.

-As for the rest, I don't really consider early promotion to be that big a difference here since the promotion bonuses aren't insanely good like they were in FE6.

-As to the bold: there's the fact the high rank staves are generally more useful than the high rank tomes, as well as the aforementioned problem with raising most promoted magic users' staff ranks.

Pretty much what I said to Espinosa.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Vorena

[dondon151]

those are different runs

the commentated version was done later and has fewer turns

[Shadow Mir]

About the mage -> healer vs healer -> mage. Its all a matter of time. Healers still needed to spam staff at the early part of the game to get up that high. Mages just need to spam staff in the later half of the game to get staff ranking up. Its done in draft where you get someone like Canas or Erk to be your warp user. There is enough time between chapters to get these mage -> healers to work. Again, I still see the two routes being very identical.

What...? I'm not sure why you brought up drafts since as far as drafts go, by the time you can get a promoted Canas or Erk to have any respectable staff rank, chances are the game's over. You'd need:

15 uses of Heal

14 uses of Mend

17 uses of Mend (or 13 uses of Barrier)

20 uses of Mend (or 15 uses of Barrier)

to get to A rank from their starting rank of E. And I'd say that's a stretch.

[PKL]

Derp. Yeah, I meant the commentated run. I was joking though ;/

[PKL]

What...? I'm not sure why you brought up drafts since as far as drafts go, by the time you can get a promoted Canas or Erk to have any respectable staff rank, chances are the game's over. You'd need:

15 uses of Heal

14 uses of Mend

17 uses of Mend (or 13 uses of Barrier)

20 uses of Mend (or 15 uses of Barrier)

to get to A rank from their starting rank of E. And I'd say that's a stretch.

You'd be surprised how easy this actually is. Battle Before Dawn has 15 turns on its own to spam Torch with Ninian in. By then, an earlypromoted Canas or Erk could spam heal and then mend in Vaida's chapter. Not to mention Barrier. It's actually pretty trivial to get Warp with them in drafts.

EDIT: Oops, accidental double post because quote. Rage

Edited June 11, 2013 by Peekayell

[Nicolas]

Pleas, tell me something: If you all love LTC/Efficieny runs why you don't play Advance Wars?