Worst unit in the game

[Constable Reggie]

So Ricken isn't the worst, and that you're a.. well.. if you think he is, because he wears a big hat?

LTC: Donnel is unsalvageable; Ricken is great here thanks to Rescue.

Efficiency: Donnel is not as bad but still horrible. Ricken is still great here because he can become a Dark Knight or he can use Rescue.

Drafts: Never played one, but I think Donnel would be shitty here too. Ricken can become a Dark Knight.

Lunatic+: Ricken can avoid Counter and become a Rescue bot. I think Donnel might be untrainable here.

0% (hypothetical): Ricken can become a Rescue bot. Donnel is completely unsalvageable.

edit: also, nice weasling your way out of admitting you insulted people who think Ricken is the worst character.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Steampunk]

*grabs popcorn*

I have a hard time calling anyone in this game "the worst" since they can all become OPed killing machines if you want to put the time in. Instead, I'll just pick on the people I use the least: Virion, Ricken, Donnel, Kellam (on the fence with this one), and Frederick (same here too). Also don't use Lucina that much for some reason. Don't know why that it. Don't use Virion because I just don't like him. Don't use Ricken because there are other options that work just as well if not better. Don't use Donnel because I don't like putting units in daycare until they can walk on their own two feet. Don't use Kellam much because I don't like knights/generals too much and I usually have to put him in daycare as well when I reclass him to thief. I try to avoid using Freddy since he's a pre-promote. When I do start using him, he's a good deal behind everyone else because I didn't use him before. He is pretty solid when I do keep him up to par though.

[The Fush]

This depends on how you're playing the game. If you're running the game at a brisk pace or LTCing, then it's probably gonna be Donnel because he'll be lagging behind the whole way.

[Da Bear]

This is terrible.

First off: Olwen you started things out pretty well with this OP:

Who do you think is the worst unit in the game?

This seems to be asking for opinions. Between topic title and the fact that you made this thread I guess I was being overly optimistic but enough on that.

Then Interceptor said Ricken and you said that he was obviously wrong simply because of lolrescue. What's up with that? I can see people disagreeing with Ricken for the worst unit but you took it way too far when you said he was one of the better units simply because of lolrescue. What's up with that? He has one pro that he shares with several other units and actually is probably worse at it than most of those units but just having lolrescue makes him a great unit. I then came in and stated that he was terrible and again all you could say was lolrescue.

You went on later in the thread to state that rescue is like the best thing in this game other than Galeforce and Veteran. You never gave adequate reasons (the ones you did give were pretty mediocre) and you simply assumed that you were right, here were those reasons. (bold is mine)

1. Save a unit from death If a unit is in death range by the time Ricken can rescue you're probably doing it wrong.

2. Move a unit so that they can save another unit from death Oh, yeah, also, Ricken by no means has a monopoly on rescue. He's still worse at it than most other rescuers, he's possibly surpassing Lissa but she has it for longer so that's pretty meh.

3. Get an extra kill for exp How? It's not Galeforce. A unit can't kill twice with it.

4. Catch a Thief who is running away This is true. Though I can't think of any places where you can't easily catch up with any thieves that show up.

5. Save Say'ri Ricken is far from the only unit who can do this.

(Don't get me wrong rescue has niches but Ricken is far from using it well).

Then Reggie showed up and stuff happened in which he pointed out that you basically openly insulted people who disagree with you. You seemed to ignore that though so I won't press the point.

Rundown of the thread:

Olwen: Who's the worst unit? (If you say anyone other than Donnel you're wrong)

Interceptor: Ricken

Olwen: LOL Ricken has rescue. He's gr8

Bearclaw: Ricken, he's got nothing going for him really.

Olwen: LOL Ricken has rescue. He's gr8

*Then people diagree on all kinds of stuff*

Reggie: I would say Ricken but I don't want to be insulted for being wrong so I'll say Inigo.

Olwen: Ricken is great thanks to rescue.

Reggie: Not everyone worships rescue

Interceptor: Yeah, but who cares about those people?

Olwen: Obv. If someone doesn't think rescue = top tier they're so wrong.

Reggie: Then why ask opinions? (best post in the thread fyi)

*Olwen and Reggie then have an argument about forcing opinions on others*

Quite frankly. That's not good at all.

Now I have a question for you Olwen. (even though you'll probably ignore this because it disagrees with you)

Do you consider PTs like no pair-up Iron Man or a no second seal, no wireless menu, no DLC, no Anna shops, no skirmishes run to be casual? They don't sound casual to me but they also don't seem to back up your points very well. Did you ignore them because of that? Did you not know about them? Do you consider them to be casual PTs?

(If it's the last one I'm convinced your definition of "casual" is something that disagrees with you)

Edited June 11, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Redwall]

stuff

Good heavens.

-Olwen used "lol" exactly once in a way to which no one could have taken any offense. Seriously, I actually Ctrl+F'ed through seven pages of this topic.

-Yes, Olwen believes Ricken is one of the better units in the game. So what? He brought up specific contexts in which he believes Ricken to be useful, and brought up the possibility of Dark Knight which you and Reggie conveniently ignored. (BTW, in HM LTC, Ricken is a much better Rescue user than Lissa and Maribelle, and unlike Anna doesn't cost any turns to recruit; remember he also has good Mag growth and the Mag+2 skill)

-At what point did Olwen say Rescue was the best thing ever? He has claimed that Ricken and Rescue are among the better options in the game, and nothing more. If you actually read carefully, you will note hasn't compared them to Veteran or Galeforce.

-Olwen has clearly stated several contexts beyond LTC he considers to be challenging. I see no reason he wouldn't consider something like a no-Second-Seal run (which, btw, would cement Donnel as the worst character) to be worth considering for competitive purposes.

He said exactly one thing that could be construed as belittling (pg 1), which I suppose is progress for him. You otherwise have no case.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Redwall

[Fargo294]

As a character I don't like Sumia all that much. I don't think that any of her supports develop her well enough or at all even aside from Frederick's. This might have something to do with the fact that she has ALL OF 8 SUPPORTS. Severa was initially irritating to me because she made me chant "Stop being an enormous bitch" under my breath. HOWEVER, she actually ended up getting well developed through her parent supports. I also hate it that Sumia dies if she gets hit by a god damn ladybug. Then again, so do Miriel, Laurent, and Olivia...

In terms of stats, Virion's speed is awful even though it's supposed to be at 60%. Kellam suffers from the same thing; on my current game, his speed has been stuck at 20 for around 10 level ups now. He wouldn't be so bad if his resistance was higher. Tharja's growths are kind of wild.

Am I the only one who doesn't know what a "Rescue" is?

[Constable Reggie]

Dark Knight which you and Reggie conveniently ignored. (BTW, in HM LTC, Ricken is a much better Rescue user than Lissa and Maribelle, and unlike Anna doesn't cost any turns to recruit; remember he also has good Mag growth and the Mag+2 skill)

Him being able to go dark knight was always a secondary point. He's second guessing DK!Ricken's usefulness in drafts, and is only mentioned once elsewhere.

Also, it's baffling for you to bring up how peachy dandy he is in ltc, since the entire point of this thread was (or at least I thought it was) to get people's opinions on who they think the worst character is.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Vashiane]

@Fargo: Rescue is the Rescue Staff you can get at some points in the game... it allows you to retrieve a unit and move them beside the caster.

Um...

Okay. I know I'm not qualified in efficiency or LTC'ing or anything like that, and I am a grinder, but I have an opinion on this.

First, I'm usually not certain about Ricken and his skills with a Rescue staff. If I make anyone a sage first, it's Miriel and Lissa. Ricken usually goes Dark Knight first, then Great Knight, then if I have the patience to level him Paladin, and then make Sage his final class. So it's usually end to post game by the time he can actually use staves for me. And both girls usually pull through well enough for me not to formally consider delving from that strategy to get a better Rescuebot, since it gets him decent skills to work with (Lifetaker, Luna, Dual Guard+, Defender and Aegis? Yes please.) By the time I actually start using rescue more often, Lissa's got chapter 8's Master Seal and Libra get, so I've never truly seen the point and when he does go Sage, he's fucking amazing at everything, naturally.

Second, I actually use Donnel. I actually go through the effort to train him. No, it's not quick and no, it's not "efficient", but I actually LIKE Donnel as a character and when I end my game, I'll be damned if he doesn't go back home to his mother a hero. He makes an amazing father for Nah, Noire or Owain from my experience and while I'm not going to say he's the best character in the game (sorry Donny, but that's not the truth, sadly), he's not terrible... if you actually have the patience to train him.

Out of all the units I use, the only one I feel the RNG screws me over with repeatedly to the point of barely being able to use her... is Tharja. I've only been able to use her for an extended amount of time ONCE, and then she started getting doubled and got a case of Chrom's "don't know how to dodge" syndrome.

[Shadow Mir]

As a character I don't like Sumia all that much. I don't think that any of her supports develop her well enough or at all even aside from Frederick's. This might have something to do with the fact that she has ALL OF 8 SUPPORTS. Severa was initially irritating to me because she made me chant "Stop being an enormous bitch" under my breath. HOWEVER, she actually ended up getting well developed through her parent supports. I also hate it that Sumia dies if she gets hit by a god damn ladybug. Then again, so do Miriel, Laurent, and Olivia...

In terms of stats, Virion's speed is awful even though it's supposed to be at 60%. Kellam suffers from the same thing; on my current game, his speed has been stuck at 20 for around 10 level ups now. He wouldn't be so bad if his resistance was higher. Tharja's growths are kind of wild.

Am I the only one who doesn't know what a "Rescue" is?

Out of all the units I use, the only one I feel the RNG screws me over with repeatedly to the point of barely being able to use her... is Tharja. I've only been able to use her for an extended amount of time ONCE, and then she started getting doubled and got a case of Chrom's "don't know how to dodge" syndrome.

That reminds me, Gaius is one of the units who I generally find a pain to work with because he gets hit more than I'd like.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Vashiane]

That reminds me, Gaius is one of the units who I generally find a pain to work with because he gets hit more than I'd like.

That happens too sometimes, which SUCKS because I need my locksmith. But I'm officially done with trying to fix Tharja, she has repeatedly gotten fucked and trying to fix her is waste of resources. I'll grind her to Tomebreaker for Noire, and then I'm done. I've got Henry after all.

[Redwall]

Him being able to go dark knight was always a secondary point.

I don't disagree, but that doesn't preclude a belief that there exist contexts in which Dark Knight can be helpful.

He's second guessing DK!Ricken's usefulness in drafts, and is only mentioned once elsewhere.

He believes Ricken is more often useful as a Sage than as a Dark Knight, but that a Dark Knight can be more useful on occasion. There's nothing wrong with that.

Also, it's baffling for you to bring up how peachy dandy he is in ltc, since the entire point of this thread was (or at least I thought it was) to get people's opinions on who they think the worst character is.

That was in response to bearclaw's claim that "[Ricken's] still worse at [Rescue-spamming] than most other rescuers, he's possibly surpassing Lissa but she has it for longer so that's pretty meh." While I respect people with differing opinions as to which characters and playstyles are the "worst" (subjective), it can objectively be shown that Ricken is a better Rescue user than Lissa upon imposing the (arbitrary) ruleset that is LTC: simply consider the lowest possible TCs with and without Ricken, if we otherwise do not impose any character restrictions. Edited June 11, 2013 by Redwall

[Constable Reggie]

I don't disagree, but that doesn't preclude a belief that there exist contexts in which Dark Knight can be helpful.

It doesn't, but without rescue use no one would say a word about people thinking Ricken to be the worst unit in the game, even if he does have Dark Knight. This has always been about rescue.

[Chiki]

It doesn't, but without rescue use no one would say a word about people thinking Ricken to be the worst unit in the game, even if he does have Dark Knight. This has always been about rescue.

No, it hasn't, it has been about Ricken being the worst unit in the game.

[Constable Reggie]

Please tell me the biggest reason why you think Ricken isn't the worst unit the game, in one word.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[PKL]

Because Donnel and Virion exist? And an 8 move unit with nice def that hits Res is good? Because spd pair ups and tonics exist? Idk, maybe.

[Chiki]

Please tell me the biggest reason why you think Ricken isn't the worst unit the game, in one word.

Rescue, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing worth considering. Dark Knight Ricken is worth discussing as well. Veteran might be the best thing about the Avatar, for example, but it doesn't mean that it's the only thing about him/her that's worth discussing. He/she can change into every class in the game.

[Randa]

I'm gonna have to somewhat agree with Chiki on this. Ricken is not the worst unit in the game. That's Donnel. And to explain why lets look at it from multiple directions.

Absolute LTC: Neithr is going to be very useful.

Drafts: Ricken is slightly better because he doesn't cost exp to recruit and cost turns to train. I have yet to actually draft him but I feel that he could at least contribute were as I have been stuck with donnel and there is no way to use him without losing turns.

Restriction runs( such as iron man, theoretically 0% growth, and no pair ups): How would you use Donnel his bases are pathetic, if he dies when being trained he's gone for good, and without a pair up he ain't killing diddly poo. Ricken at least has 1-2 range so he's safer to use.

Grinding: What difference does it make here?

Lunatic+: Why would you use either of them? Maybe Ricken. Maybe.

All in I think Chiki is right Ricken is not the worst but he's really not that good.

[Opdepov]

For worst unit ingame, it's either Bassilio or Flavia.

All other characters at least come early and can be trained towards usefullness, the kahns come in a chapter where all your units are trained and powerfull. These two however are in constant danger of dying in the chapter they join (should you want to use them). The only use they have there is getting put under another unit for some stat bonusses. After that chapter they quickly dissapear towards the bottom of the character list.

offcourse the same could be said for Gangrel, Walhart etc.. but let's not consider the post game characters really.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Falter

[Constable Reggie]

Whoa there, I'm not the one saying that rescue is the only thing we should consider.

Ricken's one of the better units in the game in any challenging context, thanks to Rescue.

Also, why do people think Ricken is bad? Being a Rescuebot with high magic makes him a good unit in every context there is in the game.

Ricken is really useful because he can use Rescue in both of them.

Ricken can promote to Sage in 7 levels and become a Rescue bot almost immediately. That will only take a few chapters.

LTC: Donnel is unsalvageable; Ricken is great here thanks to Rescue.

Efficiency: Donnel is not as bad but still horrible. Ricken is still great here because he can become a Dark Knight or he can use Rescue.

Drafts: Never played one, but I think Donnel would be shitty here too. Ricken can become a Dark Knight.

Lunatic+: Ricken can avoid Counter and become a Rescue bot. I think Donnel might be untrainable here.

0% (hypothetical): Ricken can become a Rescue bot. Donnel is completely unsalvageable.

Casual: Nothing matters here.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Sunwoo]

I'm probably gonna regret getting into this conversation, but whatever.

Who do you think is the worst unit in the game?

That's the question presented in the OP. Unless I am misinterpreting stuff, it asks us, the people who post in the thread, who we personally feel is the worst unit in the game. I'm sure we can all agree that we all play differently and value different things that a unit can provide. One person may feel Donnel is the worst in the game. Another may feel that Virion is worse than Donnel. And another may think that Ricken contributes less than both of them. Does it honestly matter? Perhaps the person who values Ricken less than Virion or Donnel has a play style that makes Ricken less useful ... or perhaps it's a personal bias and experience that comes into play? I don't know, nor do I really care. We are all free to disagree with each other on who we think is the worst unit and why, but just keep in mind that different players value different things and that there really shouldn't be too much debate over a simple opinion thread ...

[Chiki]

Uh, okay? So what? Just because I think that's the best point doesn't mean I think it's the only point worth mentioning. And I have mentioned Dark Knight Ricken before.

Efficiency: Donnel is not as bad but still horrible. Ricken is still great here because he can become a Dark Knight or he can use Rescue.

Drafts: Never played one, but I think Donnel would be shitty here too. Ricken can become a Dark Knight.

[Redwall]

Whoa there, I'm not the one saying that rescue is the only thing we should consider.

Great. Neither is Olwen.

[PKL]

I'm gonna have to somewhat agree with Chiki on this. Ricken is not the worst unit in the game. That's Donnel. And to explain why lets look at it from multiple directions.

Absolute LTC: Neithr is going to be very useful.

Drafts: Ricken is slightly better because he doesn't cost exp to recruit and cost turns to train. I have yet to actually draft him but I feel that he could at least contribute were as I have been stuck with donnel and there is no way to use him without losing turns.

Restriction runs( such as iron man, theoretically 0% growth, and no pair ups): How would you use Donnel his bases are pathetic, if he dies when being trained he's gone for good, and without a pair up he ain't killing diddly poo. Ricken at least has 1-2 range so he's safer to use.

Grinding: What difference does it make here?

Lunatic+: Why would you use either of them? Maybe Ricken. Maybe.

All in I think Chiki is right Ricken is not the worst but he's really not that good.

That's an understatement. He was Silver in the DLC draft I did due to Rescue and Gregor helping his combat. I think drafts make Ricken shine. He's mediocre everywhere else, but is far from worse than Virion Donnel Inigo Brady and Basilio Flavia.

[Interceptor]

Grinding: What difference does it make here?

Class set and stat caps.

[Opdepov]

Is this a topic about characters? Or a topic about the rescue staff?

When you consider an item to make a character usefull, aren't there more characters that can use said item? Being able to use an item several characters can use doesn't make you usefull. It simply states that there are better characters to do the same job.

It's like stating Canas was great because of Luna, at least there he was really the only character that could use that item (untill the final chapter).

I will agree that Ricken is better than Donnel though, for that seems the main discussion right now. Magic just does a lot of damage without fear of retalliation.