SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[BANRYU]

Unfortunately I can't see Arthur for the same reason that I can't see Simon (as cool as they'd both undoubtedly be).

Arthur being in the MvC series is good enough, though, right? Besides, I doubt he'd be in Smash after being in MvC (I know this was true of Megaman, but he was a VERY special exception). I'd also like to see Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden, that being a big/pretty neat game/series from the NES days, but he won't be in for similar reasons lol (Dead or Alive says hi; also the shitty reboots for Xbox)

What other old NES characters would you guys want to see get in?

I'd have wanted Balloon Fighter as like a replacement for Jigglypuff, personally, but as of the Villager's announcement and seeing that he clearly has a Balloon Fight move, I realize that's pretty much not happening at this point.

Edited March 27, 2014 by BANRYU

[Comet]

What other old NES characters would you guys want to see get in?

I'd have wanted Balloon Fighter as like a replacement for Jigglypuff, personally, but as of the Villager's announcement and seeing that he clearly has a Balloon Fight move, I realize that's pretty much not happening at this point.

it's not like jiggles was going anywhere anyway, he's one of the original 10

[Anacybele]

Oh no, if you took this as me making fun of you, I'm sorry. That was not my intent. I probably could have worded that better.

It's fine, I was incorrect about bringing up Kid Icarus anyway. :P

I personally call Smash Bros's Jigglypuff a girl because of those hats. xP

Edited March 27, 2014 by Anacybele

[Ema Skye]

I'd really like to see Mach Rider show up, because that chiptune is my favorite NES chiptune.

Plus it's a guy on a bike with a gun. What's not to like?

[Jedi]

Unfortunately I can't see Arthur for the same reason that I can't see Simon (as cool as they'd both undoubtedly be).

Arthur being in the MvC series is good enough, though, right? Besides, I doubt he'd be in Smash after being in MvC (I know this was true of Megaman, but he was a VERY special exception). I'd also like to see Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden, that being a big/pretty neat game/series from the NES days, but he won't be in for similar reasons lol (Dead or Alive says hi; also the shitty reboots for Xbox)

What other old NES characters would you guys want to see get in?

I'd have wanted Balloon Fighter as like a replacement for Jigglypuff, personally, but as of the Villager's announcement and seeing that he clearly has a Balloon Fight move, I realize that's pretty much not happening at this point.

Ninja Gaiden is a series that stayed true to its roots in 3D don't diss the Xbox/Ps3 games they are quite fun, and I'd quite like to see Ryu in his NES blue in smash, do recall DoA dimentions used the exact same Metroid Other M stage that's in smash 4 as well :P. That and Techmo-Koei and Nintendo seem to be teaming up a lot these days. Pokémon Conquest, Hyrule Warriors. The Nintendo cameos in recent handheld warriors and DoA games. Still a long shot but still. I've been playing as Ryu Hayabusa almost as long as I have Sonic and Mario.

Jigglypuff is a fan favorite and not going anywhere plus a cousin and a few people I know use her among their mains, she is a pretty fun character to use and they'd be sad if we lost her. Remember our anguish with Roy, Mewtwo etc. Jigglypuff also has a freaking fanclub in Japan lol.

Also my NES character want just happen to be from 3rd parties lol but strictly Nintendo I'd say... I don't even know, I feel we need more GBA stuff (Golden Sun and Advanced Wars fighters would be cool)

Edited March 27, 2014 by Jedisupersorry

[BANRYU]

I apologize for talking shit about the new Ninja Gaidens; admittedly I have not played them and my experience is limited to the Rage Quit of them lol. Hardly fair justification to condemn them, and I might actually be interested in trying them. Sorry.

Mach Rider sounds like a cool character for an Assist Trophy, if not a playable dude. He DID get his music on the F-zero stages a few times, and that song kicks ass.

Now then. About Jigglypuff... Before I get into this issue, on which my feelings are somewhat complicated, let me establish a few things:

- I like Jigglypuff and I enjoy playing as it. This has been true of me since Smash 64, when Jigglypuff was just awful but still a lot of fun.

- I realize I'm probably going to be alone with the opinion I'm about to say, and I'm okay with that.

- None of what I'm about to say matters at all since Jigglypuff is probably still going to be playable despite it.

Small tl;dr 20-page thesis below the cut regarding my thoughts on Jigglypuff.

I believe that there is NO reason that Jigglypuff should return for the next Smash Bros, or that it should have returned for Brawl.

Why? Well, for a character to remain in the playable roster, we've seen that several things need to apply:

1) The character needs to be a mainstay or a primary character for which his/her/its series is known. Pretty self-explanatory.

2) The character needs to have a unique and interesting moveset that sets him/her/it apart. This is mostly why clones got axed between Melee and Brawl, and why the clones that stayed got more Luigified and set apart from their base counterparts.

3) The character needs to be still relevant to the community or culture he/she/it is from in general. #2 is probably the main reason Roy got axed, but you could argue that this was a big part of it as well, since Roy wasn't brought back with his own moveset. Ike was just a bigger, more relevant, and epic character-- same applies to Mewtwo. Both of the first two qualifications arguably apply to him, yet he wasn't in because Lucario was a more relevant character at the time.

Now let's examine these as they relate to Jigglypuff: #1, debatably, does not apply to Jigglypuff since it ceased to appear in the anime that popularized it in the first place. It has no major role in any of the games like Pikachu does, nor does it get any special niches such as with the Light Ball, megavolutions, or anything else like that, and has not been used to market Pokemon since that time. I would argue that its fanbase to this day can almost solely be contributed to its appearances in the Smash series, outside of the select group of fans that just like Jigglypuff for Jigglypuff as a Pokemon. By extension, #3 also does not apply to it. So Jigglypuff's main saving grace would then seen to be #2, since it has diverted a lot from its roots as a clone of Kirby, and is a very unique playable character with its weird air speedy-floaty attack style. And again I have to stress, I really like Jigglypuff for that reason.

However, it's one of the only characters that doesn't have at least two of the (admittedly informal) qualifications I listed applying to it anymore-- one might argue it's hanging by a thread, in a sense-- that being the sense of tradition, the fact that fans have grown used to seeing Jigglypuff in SSB. However, as I argued earlier in this thread, tradition for the sake of only tradition is pointless (for reasons Egoraptor states in <- that video). But if Jigglypuff has a unique moveset, why axe her? Well, simply put, because Jigglypuff could simply be replaced by a more fitting combatant-- Balloon Fighter. Jigglypuff's slow-on-the-ground, floaty-and-fast-in-the-air style is just begging for a successor with more history and tradition behind it, IMO, and Balloon Fighter is like one of the quintessential NES IPs of the company. But, I hear you arguing, Balloon fighter wouldn't make sense with Jigglypuff's special moves! Well, yeah, but are Jigglypuff's specials that great in the first place? Rollout and Pound are useful, but pretty forgettable altogether, and Sing is nothing but a gimmick; about the only one that I'd miss personally would be Rest. The point is, with Balloon Fighter as a possible successor for Jigglypuff in terms of the floaty playstyle, there is effectively no tether holding Jigglypuff to the playable cast save the stringy wire of tradition, which should have no place in objectively effective game design.

Besides, I don't know about you guys, but when I'd played most of the way through Brawl and the Subspace Emissary... ...I'd completely forgotten about Jigglypuff by the time I'd unlocked it. Hell, I'd have been COMPLETELY fine with it not being present in the game, that's how little of an impact it left on me (although I'd be crazy if I didn't admit that I enjoyed playing Jiggz from time to time, but before I actually GOT it, I didn't care!). I would have preferred getting Mewtwo back myself, personally, but then people probably would have complained about Jiggly not coming back same as we did with Mewtwo, and then Jiggz would be my main in Melee instead of M2 haha.

It's fine if you guys disagree, it's what I'm expecting anyway. You don't have to bother responding to this (in-depth or too passionately, anyway); I've heard enough of the counter-arguments in Jigg's favor and thought about enough of them on my own (as you may be able to tell). This probably doesn't matter either way since Jigglypuff IS most likely coming back (Balloon Fighter certainly isn't replacing it, since we've seen the Villager using a BF-referencing move), it's just some food for thought is all. I'm hoping not to hugely derail the topic with this small essay... ~___~ But we'll see, I suppose.

Edited March 27, 2014 by BANRYU

[Ema Skye]

With Jigglypuff, general consensus was that she was one of the last characters to get added to Brawl (hence why she showed up so late) and was added because of her simple movesets.

I think the simplicity is what is going to keep her around, because she's an easy character to make. I'm not going to get super upset if she gets cut, but I think it'll take some getting used to seeing the absence of a three time veteran.

[BANRYU]

I'm just questioning whether Jigglypuff should have even been around that long is all. As I said, Jigglypuff's reason for being added to Smash 64 is most likely its appearances in the Pokemon show (much like with Mewt and Luke in the movies), and the scope of its relevance doesn't go much further than that.

And Jigglypuff (the one from our childhoods, anyway) hasn't appeared on the show in a LONG time. S'all I'm sayin'.

Granted, you're right, the reason it's most likely to return IS the fact that it's a three-time perfect attendant for the series, whether it should have been or not.

Edited March 27, 2014 by BANRYU

[Ema Skye]

I do have to wonder why they went for Jigglypuff instead of Meowth. :/

I'd wager that Meowth is up there with Pikachu and Charizard for the most recognizable Pokemon (hai anime), and his role in the anime was much more prominent than Jigglypuff.

Maybe Sakurai is too much of a cat person to want people to attack fictional cats... :P

[BANRYU]

Yeah I'd be inclined to agree with you there. If I had to guess, I'd say it's something along the lines of not having enough time to design an 11th and 12th character's movesets in the original, so they needed to make the last two cloney to save time on programming. Luigi is an easy choice to be a clone of Mario, naturally, and Jigglypuff being a clone of Kirby is a clever solution to that theoretical problem (assuming it existed).

From there on, though, I'd say it's just the fallacy of tradition. *shrug* In retrospect I'm a little baffled that it took this long for Charizard to be playable, too.

Edited March 27, 2014 by BANRYU

[HK Motendra]

[Jedi]

Yeah I'd be inclined to agree with you there. If I had to guess, I'd say it's something along the lines of not having enough time to design an 11th and 12th character's movesets in the original, so they needed to make the last two cloney to save time on programming. Luigi is an easy choice to be a clone of Mario, naturally, and Jigglypuff being a clone of Kirby is a clever solution to that theoretical problem (assuming it existed).

From there on, though, I'd say it's just the fallacy of tradition. *shrug* In retrospect I'm a little baffled that it took this long for Charizard to be playable, too.

But Jigglypuff plays nothing like Kirby..? They both float that's it.

Not considerate at all considering in the original comic canon he killed Foxes mother by mistake with a car bomb aimed for James due ti love triangle stuff just sayin.

I do like how Sakurai referenced Andrews constant yell of UNCLE ANDROSS

Edited March 27, 2014 by Jedisupersorry

[Anacybele]

Now Andross I recognize. From Brawl, anyway. :P I've never played Star Fox either.

[BANRYU]

Heh, good ol' Andross.

For shame, Anacybele, so uncultured~ >w>

But Jigglypuff plays nothing like Kirby..? They both float that's it.

Not in Melee or Brawl, sure, but in the original game, they were VERRRRY similar. (True to form, it was basically just a worse Kirby, same as how it's basically just a worse Clefairy in the Pokemon games. >3>) As I said, Jigglypuff has diverged a lot from its roots as a clone, but that IS how it started off.

Edited March 27, 2014 by BANRYU

[Randoman]

I hope you guys don't mind me advertising one of my own Smash threads, but with all the Jigglypuff talk, I thought I'd do so since it pertains to my thread. Anyways, I'm wanting people to answer some of my SSB64 roster questions in this thread, so I could get some more insight on what Sakurai was thinking and planning for SSB64's roster.

I always think it's important to main characters that you like.

I completely agree with this. I was completely horrible with Marth and Ice Climbers at first (I was only good with Marth with C-Sticking for the quite a while in Melee, then I was only good with him with his Down B Counter, then I finally learned to utilize his strong air game to the fullest. Ice Climbers I kept getting Nana killed and it took a long time for me to utilize their ground game, grabs, and their specials effectively, especially the aerial Blizzard), yet I kept sticking with them since I liked them as characters. Eventually, I was able to become better with them than Mario and Luigi, my two first Smash Bros. characters that naturally "clicked" with me.

Yeah, it's important to use characters that fit your style well, but if you really like a character that much, you really shouldn't let their playstyle not matching yours be too big a factor in not using them.

What other old NES characters would you guys want to see get in?

I'd have wanted Balloon Fighter as like a replacement for Jigglypuff, personally, but as of the Villager's announcement and seeing that he clearly has a Balloon Fight move, I realize that's pretty much not happening at this point.

I'm quite accepting of any retro characters actually. I mean, characters like Mario, Donkey Kong, Link will always be getting new games for themselves and have plenty of spotlight. With retro characters, many of them will never star in a new game ever again or even get an updated 3D model of themselves as a trophy in Smash. By having retro characters be playable in Smash, it really helps alleviate and compensate for the fact that they'll likely never be getting a new game or ever debut in HD in their own series and such. I really liked how the Ice Climbers and R.O.B.'s debut in Smash have garned them a lot of popularity and recognition, and want other old, forgotten Nintendo characters to regain their popularity and fame they had in their heyday. So bring on the Urban Champion, Donbe & Hikari, and Duck Hunt Dogs!!

Takamaru is my top NES/Famicom pick, seeing how he's the Link to Samus' Pit in terms of them being brother-sister games due to running on the same game engine. Plus, he's probably the coolest looking Nintendo retro character. Hopefully, his Captain Rainbow appearance, being a Samurai Warriors 3 guest playable character, and his Nintendo Land appearance (even if it's just a Mii in costume for a minigame based on his game) help his chances. Even if he's a sword user, he still has plenty of other weapons like shurikens, clay bombs, and a flaming wand.

Sadly, as much as I'd want Balloon Fighter, I don't think he's likely due to his balloons being Villager's recovery. Plus, Balloon Fight seems to be restricted to references only, especially with the Flipper in Melee, the Balloon Fight Fish in Brawl's Summit Stage, and its music in both Brawl and Melee's Ice Climber stages.

I'd really like to see Mach Rider show up, because that chiptune is my favorite NES chiptune.

Plus it's a guy on a bike with a gun. What's not to like?

It's a girl on a bike, actually, according to the Vs. Mach Rider arcade game that was officially made by Nintendo (I didn't know either until last year, so you're definitely not alone on thinking Mach Rider is a male). I would link you to a youtube video or screenshot proving so, but it's quite a lewd and dirty picture of her (even if it's an 8-bit pixellated picture). It's one of the first images you get when you google images for "Mach Rider", so finding it won't be too hard if you want the proof.

All that aside, I'm all for Mach Rider as a playable character. Her having a helmetless alternate costume Wario style would be quite cool as well.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Randoman

[PKL]

With Jigglypuff, general consensus was that she was one of the last characters to get added to Brawl (hence why she showed up so late) and was added because of her simple movesets.

I think the simplicity is what is going to keep her around, because she's an easy character to make. I'm not going to get super upset if she gets cut, but I think it'll take some getting used to seeing the absence of a three time veteran.

So simple that he made her completely terrible lol.

[Anacybele]

For shame, Anacybele, so uncultured~ >w>

Um...sorry, but I'm not really into all that futuristic space stuff. Same reason I don't play Metroid.

[kingddd]

now that I think about it, the stage builder would be great for the Wii U's gamepad and 3DS touch screen. Making it less tedious to place specific obstacles and objects.

Edited March 27, 2014 by kingddd

[Anacybele]

Oh yes, definitely! It's also a reason why I want a Wii U Four Sword Zelda game and a Wii U Mario Paint. Though we did get the Art Academy instead, a Mario Paint for Wii U might still sell decently because it's got Mario all over it. lol And people liked that bug swatting game.

But anyway, yeah, using the stylus and touch screen on the Wii U and 3DS to make stages would be so much easier than using the Wii remote or other controller!

[Randoman]

New pictures of Diddy Kong and Little Mac from Famitsu

Not much new info, though Diddy's bananas are confirmed to return.

An interesting quote regarding a Zelda pic and translated Japanese lines from the magazine, from a GoNintendo member:

But, the Picture with Zelda, they talk about the Phantom being 'called and controlled in battle' and that 'Zelda may not be able to become Sheik', and such. So there's that, but that Sheik part sounds more like "Hmm, will Zelda be able to become Sheik again? I do wonder!" so I wouldn't worry about Sheik.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Randoman

[Anacybele]

Er, okay. Stuff we've already seen. Wow.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I don´t care for any of the newcomers except for Megaman. I just hope, that Captain Falcon and Yoshi will come back and another Fire Emblem character will join. I have an open mind about anything else.

[Jedi]

Heh, good ol' Andross.

For shame, Anacybele, so uncultured~ >w>

Not in Melee or Brawl, sure, but in the original game, they were VERRRRY similar. (True to form, it was basically just a worse Kirby, same as how it's basically just a worse Clefairy in the Pokemon games. >3>) As I said, Jigglypuff has diverged a lot from its roots as a clone, but that IS how it started off.

Jigglypuff gained a total of one move from 64 to Melee. I still don't see clone.

And it bugs me that they are still using SNES Andross. Why not show his 64 or Adventures self? Considering Fox and co's current designs clash with his SNES look.

Also to the above I have no idea why you are worried about Falcon and Yoshi not returning. Considering they are staples and that Sakurai mentioned the freaking Falcon Punch by name in a somewhat recent interview.

I knew they were staying Day One

Edited March 27, 2014 by Jedisupersorry

[Rewjeo]

Could Jigglypuff perhaps get anything interesting out of the new fairy type? That's the only thing I can think of that she might have going for her, even though I'm personally fond of her for nostalgia reasons.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Rewjeo

[Anacybele]

Maybe Moonblast as her new FS? It'd certainly be way better than Puff Up. :/