SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[euklyd]

it was streamed on MLG's stupid site

nairo also beat esam with doc

wait did nairo stay doc in losers as well? and still won? wow

[Jedi]

wait did nairo stay doc in losers as well? and still won? wow

Yep he did just that.

[Raven]

About that "masked lucina" video

fake and gay, if you pay attention to the transition effects made by hovering over the different characters, you'll notice this "masked lucina" is completely static. The Rayman "leak" was far more genuine-looking than this pisspoor attempt could ever hope to be.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Raven

[The DanMan]

Claps for Nairo; hopefully this shakes up the scene a bit.

[euklyd]

About that "masked lucina" video

fake and gay, if you pay attention to the transition effects made by hovering over the different characters, you'll notice this "masked lucina" is completely static. The Rayman "leak" was far more genuine-looking than this pisspoor attempt could ever hope to be.

note the shovel knight just kinda chilling in the background of the CSS

it's pretty obviously tongue-in-cheek

[Knife]

I saw it in person.

The best

[Jedi]

Saw this and felt I should share it.

[Knife]

So a lot of people have been wondering where I place characters on the tier list. This is it. It is also ordered within the tier. Not sure why I put ____ in _____ tier or why ______ is better than ______? Just ASK!

[Carmine Sword]

Is Mii Swordfighter really better than Mii Brawler without customs?

[kingddd]

Is Mii Swordfighter really better than Mii Brawler without customs?

i personally feel gunner is slightly better than swordfighter. Most of gunner's smash attacks at least connections unlike samus for some odd reason.

Edited October 22, 2015 by kingddd

[Knife]

Is Mii Swordfighter really better than Mii Brawler without customs?

Yes, better up B and recovery in general, much better smashes, up air that kills and does 17%. Both default projectiles (neutral b) are pretty bad, but I guess Brawler's is slightly better.

i personally feel gunner is slightly better than swordfighter. Most of gunner's smash attacks at least connections unlike samus for some odd reason.

Gunner has to rely on spacing with fairs to zone out the opponent, as letting them get close is a death sentence. Default charge shot is so pitiful compared to Samus's (slower and kills later, but charges slightly faster?). The only smashes you really want to use with Samus or Mii Gunner is Fsmash, but overall Samus has the better one coming out extremely fast and is relatively powerful, good tradeoff for the lack of range Gunner's provides. Default swordfighter definitely has its other Mii brethren beat.

That being said, I get less and less sure about tiers as I go down. I strongly believe results make a big impact (although, which is why Pikachu is bottom of A tier (only Esam reps him at a top or high level, no other Pikachus come close) and why Mario is so high (on top of not having many bad matchups, he has two top level reps in Ally/Zenyou as well as a ton of high/mid level reps). Not that results is the end all be all, but they are indicitave of how good a character actually is vs. just theorycrafting. Low tiers tend to not get many results so its harder to say. TBH Robin would be down there or below Link based on character ability alone but he has much more meaningful results.

Only thing I'm sure about down there is Zelda is the undisputed worst.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Knife

[Ragnell]

Knife, what makes you place Peach, Yoshi, and Ike so high in B tier? They all have some high level representation, but only fairly recently. I'm not 100% disagreeing, just curious for your explanation.

Also, what is your reasoning for Lucas, Doc, and Little Mac in C tier? Most people I have talked to consider them all candidates for low tier.

[Elieson]

Why is Sonic > Pikachu, and by that much?

Why is Zard so low? IIRC he was buffed pretty heavily recently, and super armor is useful a lot more frequently than anything Lucina can do now sans maybe a random Ken combo

[Knife]

Knife, what makes you place Peach, Yoshi, and Ike so high in B tier? They all have some high level representation, but only fairly recently. I'm not 100% disagreeing, just curious for your explanation.

Also, what is your reasoning for Lucas, Doc, and Little Mac in C tier? Most people I have talked to consider them all candidates for low tier.

Peach - Has great representation in Japan and Slayer Z is good enough to beat Ally/Concon. Results aside, Peach has great aerial mobilty, a fair that kills very early for how safe it is on shield, a dair that can harrass shield and combo into kill moves, and combos that wreck fast fallers (which incidentally are very common in S and A tier).

Ike - Has great NA representation with Ryo, Ryuga, and San, not so much in Japan. Results aside, Ike is actually kinda mobile in the air, walls out a lot of characters, has true combos lasting a very long time (up throw > fair works on Sheik till like 80%, after that you can start reading DI/Air Dodges, just one example), gets very nice rewards off a relatively safe grab which is a big deal in Smash 4.

Yoshi - Admittedly, his NA results are really bad but in Japan he is seen as a threat. Being the floatiest heavy with a frame 5 nair means he can live a very long time and break out of combos easily. His dair does 32% with all hits and is mostly safe on shield as of the most recent patch because it doesn't let you shield drop. Weaknesses are that he is very gimpable if you hit him out of his second jump and his range are subpar (however many other characters have it worse recovery and range wise). One of those characters that has more theory support rather than results support, but I strongly believe he can contend with the best characters with the tools he has.

These players have always done well with those characters, its just that bigger events are starting to unfold (aka SlayerZ beating Ally and (prepatch) Concon and 3 Ikes in top 32 of BH). In fact, I'd argue that recent results are more relevant than older ones.

Lucas - He isn't that bad, he is getting decent results for a relatively new character. I don't know why people consider him low tier when he has two kill throws, a very fast fsmash, a hoohah that combos very late, grab setups with dtilt and zair, and a very good recovery when combined with the tether + godly double jump. He definitely has more tools than characters below him.

Little Mac - Contender for best frame data in the game, best roll in the game, super armor on smashes, very strong smashes (relatively safe too with the combination of shield stun + superarmor). He loses very hard to many characters like Sheik and Greninja, but at the same time can wreck most characters below him. Yes he can get gimped very easily, but a good Mac player (aka not For Glory) will not allow many opportunities for that to happen and even then will mixup his recovery. His performance is greatly affected by the stage though, so he's more of a counterpick character.

Doctor Mario - Its kinda BS that people put Doc and Mario on opposite ends of the tier lists when they have nearly the same frame data, only major differences being that Doc's Fair kills instead of gimps, Doc is slower movement wise, and Doc's recovery is worse (debatable because Doc at least has a tornado that gives him more height). This difference is not that great that I would be putting Mario in A while putting Doc in E or F. He edgeguards better than Mario and has better OOS options.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Knife

[Knife]

Why is Sonic > Pikachu, and by that much?

Why is Zard so low? IIRC he was buffed pretty heavily recently, and super armor is useful a lot more frequently than anything Lucina can do now sans maybe a random Ken combo

Simple, Sonic has more successful players than Pikachu does. Pikachu is carried by theory and Esam, otherwise I would be skeptical of even putting him in A.

Zard still has his fundamental problems such as a huge hurtbox and being juggled, but yeah I think you do have a point especially with the most recent buffs he could be leading D tier or be last in C tier. His grab has great range and rewards are pretty good and as I mentioned, grab rewards are a big deal in this game. I can probably move Charizard up.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

So a lot of people have been wondering where I place characters on the tier list. This is it. It is also ordered within the tier. Not sure why I put ____ in _____ tier or why ______ is better than ______? Just ASK!

Bowser and Roy are too low!

[General Horace]

i'd say bowser is too high if anything

going offstage for him to do anything really hurts because you can't b-reverse his up b and he doesn't ledgesnap when facing away from the ledge so if he fails an edgeguard he's going to get punished by whatever move the opponent wants, it's really stupid. the only real good things he has are upb oos and a command grab

EDIT: he has a good dashgrab too actually, but throws don't do a whole lot for him

I actually agree with the list for the most part though.

Edited October 22, 2015 by General Horace

[Knife]

Bowser and Roy are too low!

I was being pretty generous with Bowser. Roy could be higher, but I just don't see much going for him other than powerful smashes (that you may seldomly land against good opponents), horizontal mobility (running and air), Blazer OoS, and grab combos. Everything else is meh (range, disadvantage, recovery, approach).

Edited October 22, 2015 by Knife

[Florete]

Zelda is both the best and worst character in the game.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

What. Bowser's air game is great! I go off the stage all the time, against humans and CPU opponents, and never have a problem! Ya'll are crazy!

[Knife]

Can't tell if you're trolling.

Most character's have the ability to go offstage to edgeguard. However this is a list of relativity.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I'm actually being dead serious about having no problems with Bowser's off-stage abilities, I really do think they're good. I'm also being lighthearted, adding spit-faces to show said lighthearted playfullness and to show that I fully respect your disagreement with my own opinion.

[Shin]

I'm actually being dead serious about having no problems with Bowser's off-stage abilities, I really do think they're good. I'm also being lighthearted, adding spit-faces to show said lighthearted playfullness and to show that I fully respect your disagreement with my own opinion.

This is the Smash thread, we'll have none of that respecting other people's opinion nonsense here.

[Carmine Sword]

I'm just glad that Ganondorf is not considered the worst character in the game.

[Jotari]

Why doesn't Ganondorf own all?

Edited October 23, 2015 by Jotari