Draftplay Strategy Discussion (and related)

[Espinosa]

I noticed I've been starting topics every time I wanted to hear others' experience in a certain context (mostly efficiency play) so I figured it might be a good idea to start a thread that would be thematically fitting and meet the needs of people who seek to pick others' brains and facilitate discussion.

Right now I'm playing a run of FE8 that could be comparable to a draft - no Seth, no other proficient combat units early on.

They are entering chapter 5 with the following stats:

Eirika's offence is very dependable, even though the Rapier is about to break (not too many chapters ahead where it can be used). It took Vanessa forever to get the first strength proc, and I had a difficult time 5-turning map 4 because Eirika was the only character capable of one-rounding stuff and she could only be in one place at a time, plus she had (and still has) durability issues.

But here's the current problem: I'm trying to 3-turn chapter 5.

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe8/guiafe8/capitulo5fe8.htm

This is usually a walk in the park when Seth is around, as he can 3-turn the map with ease, one-rounding the boss on turn 3 PP and before that build up (probably sword) rank wexp. Things are different here, as Vanessa is the only mobile unit I have, and she does enable a 3-turn assuming she full-moves each turn and drops Eirika in the forest right before the boss.

Neimi and Lute are both scrubs and don't help much with the 3-turn at all. I basically use them to choke points and get the RN to do what I want, yet it's not enough in the end.

Basically here's what I'm doing:

turn 1: Vanessa grabs Eirika and occupies the shop tile. She will get attacked by a Fighter and an Archer - she needs to dodge the Archer definitely. So far I've found the sequence of actions that lets Vanessa escape all damage. The rest just line up to counter a Fighter once.

turn 2: Vanessa moves 1R6U (2 squares south of the northern Fighter). She will be attacked by another Fighter and another Archer. She can land 2R5U, alternatively, and be attacked by a Soldier and TWO Archers instead, which is a bad idea because the Archers have 78% displayed hit against her.

turn 3: Vanessa, most likely terribly weakened, drops Eirika in boss's range. She dies to the two Soldiers attacking her on EP and Eirika finishes off the boss (she 2HKOs cleanly). The problem here, I think, is that Vanessa will be top priotity for the boss over Eirika due to being moribund and unable to counter.

So the question is... what do? Seems like Vanessa could somehow dodge the turn 2 EP Archer, then both the Soldiers (oh boy), so that Eirika is top priority for the boss (assuming the Soldiers go for her and connect).

Right now I can't seem to think of a way where this 3-turn strat would work, and I'm also missing, like, all the villages - I can't even reach the Armorslayer or recruit Joshua with Natasha for his Killing Edge. Seth (not in play) can take the Dracoshield on turn 1 but that's about it.

Do you think I could work and succeed on the 3-turn? Or go for a lax 4 turn clear with more achievements thanks to the breathing room the extra turn gives (namely for combat experience)? I've never finished a draft so I'd like to know what people do in such situations.

Turn counts lest I forget them:

P 2

C1 5

C2 5

C3 6

C4 5

C5 4

C5x 7

C6 3

C7 4

C8 7

Edited July 9, 2013 by Espinosa

[Da Bear]

It depends.

Could you save turns with the items you get?

[Espinosa]

Probably not. Secret Book and Torch aren't too useful, and I actually think in a 3-turn (4-turn moreso) I could send Seth to get the Armorslayer while anyone else grabs the Dracoshield.

I think the main "prize" is the combat experience, as taking an extra turn means more space to walk around and attack enemies for experience. Vanessa doesn't have ORKO-worthy combat just yet, and Neimi/Lute are pretty bad. Natasha could spam some staves too, and she doesn't get the chance just now.

78% displayed hit is 90% true so I don't know how realistic dodging him (alongside the Fighter) would be in a 3-turn. Maybe I should just be more creative with baiting enemies with Neimi/Lute/Natasha to change the state of the RN. I can dodge the less accurate Fighter (Vanessa is unequipped) but not the Archer on turn 2 PP. On turn 1 Vanessa doesn't take any damage at all.

[BBM]

Is this a female-only run?

I don't think I've ever 3-turned C5 in a draft. It's just not really reliable enough without Seth, and I don't normally have Eirikas with enough STR to ORKO the boss either. I think even Franz/Vanessa combo would be difficult, though I've never had that so idk.

[charlie_]

I don't think I've ever 3-turned C5 in a draft. It's just not really reliable enough without Seth, and I don't normally have Eirikas with enough STR to ORKO the boss either. I think even Franz/Vanessa combo would be difficult, though I've never had that so idk.

This. You kind of want a couple of the villages and the Killing Edge if you can snag it anyway.

[Espinosa]

Is this a female-only run?

I don't think I've ever 3-turned C5 in a draft. It's just not really reliable enough without Seth, and I don't normally have Eirikas with enough STR to ORKO the boss either. I think even Franz/Vanessa combo would be difficult, though I've never had that so idk.

Yes actually. No idea how Amelia and Marisa will fit in later on.

Thanks for sharing the experience guys, I guess I have to admit that the 3-turn I thought of is possible only on paper (or with full control over the RNG) and stick with a 4-turn that obtains some of the goodies.

How does a 5-turn of C4 (Ancient Horrors) sound for this party? Is it a bit too high or normal? I couldn't think of a way to get less turns and actually really struggled with 5 turns too. If Vanessa had proc'd on both of her previous level-ups, I'm sure I could rout more easily but that wasn't the case. Units like Franz, Garcia and even Gilliam are really valuable here (I believe I normally 2-turn this map with a full cast).

[dondon151]

it's only draftplay if u rig ur level ups!

[Espinosa]

it's only draftplay if u rig ur level ups!

I only manipulated the movement in the prologue (everyone knows how to do the 2-turn with Eirika), but getting good level-ups is hard in this game because it has the worst RNG of all the FE games. Re-arranging actions leads to the same exact outcome on enemy phase most of the times.

[dondon151]

FE8 has the same RNG as FE6 (ok technically it's slightly different) and FE7. you're just not rearranging it enough.

[eclipse]

FE8 has the same RNG as FE6 (ok technically it's slightly different) and FE7. you're just not rearranging it enough.

RNG burning works like 6/7, too.

[Espinosa]

I don't mean that one uses a different RN system (like 1 RN), but that the actions affect the RN differently from FE6 and FE7. You can re-arrange your actions, get different level-ups during PP and then get an identical enemy phase when you select End. Sometimes there's a slight variation at the start of EP and then it goes back to being identical again.

Can get kinda annoying, but I'm not sure what irks me more - FE8's RNG or FE6's enemy movement affecting the RN. Remembering whether you skip a cutscene where units move or watch the beginning is easy, but if you happen to position one single character one tile away and the enemies still target the same units at the same hit rates (no terrain discrepancy), the whole turn will play out differently.

Besides the Prologue, I try to (and do) play out my turns without fiddling around with the movement; otherwise, I might as well play full-fledged TAS runs (without the speedrun part) which is an entirely different kind of PT.

[eclipse]

I don't mean that one uses a different RN system (like 1 RN), but that the actions affect the RN differently from FE6 and FE7. You can re-arrange your actions, get different level-ups during PP and then get an identical enemy phase when you select End. Sometimes there's a slight variation at the start of EP and then it goes back to being identical again.

Can get kinda annoying, but I'm not sure what irks me more - FE8's RNG or FE6's enemy movement affecting the RN. Remembering whether you skip a cutscene where units move or watch the beginning is easy, but if you happen to position one single character one tile away and the enemies still target the same units at the same hit rates (no terrain discrepancy), the whole turn will play out differently.

Besides the Prologue, I try to (and do) play out my turns without fiddling around with the movement; otherwise, I might as well play full-fledged TAS runs (without the speedrun part) which is an entirely different kind of PT.

I've found that you may need to burn through quite a few numbers before things get significantly different. My record is 15.

[Hawk King]

Re-arranging your actions on PP isnt enough. You have to actually "burn" some #s.

As far as your 3 turn attempt goes, the only way to get it is if Vanessa dies. The boss will target her over Eirika. Unless you can somehow get Eirika's HP very low, but then you would need to rig a dodge with Eirika.

The only way to 3 turn Chapter 5 in a draft is with an extremely STR blessed Franz. Or rig a ~2% crit with an average Franz/ STR blessed Nessie.

I always just do a 4 turn clear when I have Nessie.

[Espinosa]

Just 4-turned the map. Got the Secret Book with Vanessa, Dracoshield and Armorslayer with Franz & Seth (not used for combat), but couldn't get Torch and therefore also the Guiding Ring (I'm sure Lute can wait until C12 boss's and Natasha can wait until the next one). Eirika is even better than before, and Lute got some decent levels in (speed and two mag level-ups). Neimi and Vanessa didn't level up.

It also kinda sucks that Vanessa has only 6 str. If she had just one extra point, she'd ORKO two Soldiers attacking her on turn 4 EP, giving her a level-up and even better stats. I guess that's how snowballing works - the better stats you have, the more capable you are of growing quickly (until a certain point where the exp gain slows down anyway).

How exactly does one 3-turn without the Eirika drop? You can only attack the boss at 2-range with a 7-move unit, and the boss has 12 defence, so you might have to crit more than once with Javelin.

Getting Eirika to low HP is one way (achievable if Vanessa is at full HP when she performs the drop), or one can also equip Vanessa with a Javelin and out of her and Eirika, the boss should prioritise Eirika (I think) if Vanessa isn't about to die (Vanessa has more defence at base plus WTA). Anyway, I couldn't pull it off and I don't want to burn RNs.

I did manage to find a way to 3-turn with Vanessa dying but this screws me over in map 7 and in many other places I'm sure. Right now the question is more about whether I want to spend extra time on map 8 to get the Elysian Whip rather than whether I want to get Vanessa to die.

PKL also recommends Amelia as a viable combat unit for this run. I don't think I'm cool with towering her so we'll see if this works out... quite a bit later.

[charlie_]

Drafts tend to allow towering trainees (amelia and ewan anyway) to tier 1 level 1.

[PKL]

Yeah, I said it's worth considering because you're lacking in 8 move units. It's worth a try. There arent many females with good move. Training her without tower will be a pain though lol. Might not even be possible.

EDIT: Actually, I forget Tana. Maybe Nessie and her are enough for combat in female runs.

Edited July 6, 2013 by PKL

[General Horace]

kind of late but getting an early guiding ring is oftentimes worth the turns, since an extra two chapters of getting staff rank and the such is pretty valuable

[Espinosa]

Picked up that tip and tried to restart map 5 with the goal to get all villages. Eirika being the only unit with passable combat and Vanessa being necessary for Eirika's transportation pretty much spelled out that I wouldn't be able to 4-turn the map with the level of manipulation I am able to carry out.

I'm doubting it though; is Lute in a hurry to promote before map 11 in the drafts you normally play? It seems that she might not get there fast enough (though mine leaves map 5 at 4/0 which should begin snowballing any moment now). Plus, extra time will be taken in midgame maps, so that's good opportunity to spam Barrier and whatnot. Still, seems apparent that I might not get Warp access for map 16 (maybe with Natasha though? idk how that works out).

[General Horace]

I've had Artur more often that Lute, and I'm fairly sure i've been able to get her to level 14 or so before chapter 9, where another 6 move unit is pretty valuable, especially with your team only have Vanessa with really half decent combat, you could probably drop her down south with all the archers and such to avoid Vanessa having to handle them.

EDIT: 14 is probably a more Artur-like number. Lute is probably like 12 or so.

Edited July 8, 2013 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

Yeah, Artur is faster (2 AS lead at base), joins slightly earlier and has the capacity to kill extra enemies thanks to stray crits so his promotion and staff improvement is easier to rig (speaking from an experience of a full team here though). I promoted him on turn 2 of C8 on my recentest Ephraim route run.

Right now Lute is entering map 7 with 9 mag/10 spd (sic), which is pretty neat, even though she still misses ORKOs on stuff like Soldiers. I guess Natasha could be a temporary warper while Lute starts building staff rank beginning with map 11? Before then she could continue levelling up to have good warp range / combat stats for places like the desert.

Right now I'm failing to 3-turn C7. I'm not beamcrash who was able to rig a 3-turn with Vanessa's survival and all that, and even beamcrash was playing on Normal (Easy? Certainly not Hard) and actually one-rounded the boss with an underlevelled Vanessa.

I'm pretty sure the 3-turn is possible if Vanessa is able to dodge an archer on turn 1 while weighed down (24 avo), then dodge two more Archers and a ballista on turn 2 (42 avo) while Eirika gets reduced to KO range by the Slim Lance (wut) Soldier so that the boss targets her instead of Vanessa. The problem is that Natasha/Lute/Neimi just aren't flexible enough to re-arrange the actions affecting the RNG this way.

If I 4-turn, I can focus more on quality level-ups for Vanessa and Lute, I guess.

No idea what to do with Neimi. She'll probably instapromote to Ranger but that won't be anytime soon even though her promotion isn't a problem. Now I'd promote Vanessa quickly because she's spd/def/res-blessed, which is nice (but has slightly below average strength which is worse) but I was unable to get the Chest Key in C3 because Neimi wasn't rambo enough to KO the Fighter holding it and Vanessa was busy baiting the Merc away from Eirika. Don't think Ephraim's team can pass it around even if I allow them to fight on that map (which I don't plan to)... I tried sending a Chest key to the convoy in 5x - it's just dropped.

So it looks like Vanessa/Tana will promote after C14 and Lute will promote before C11.

[PKL]

Are you sure you want to do that? Having a Wyvern Vanessa is almost crucial for C9, especially with the lack of good offense in the team.

[Espinosa]

Well, I don't have any other way of opening that chest (even disregarding the turn cost). Unless I drag Colm all the way to it (which I might as well I guess, considering male units have been visiting the villages for me).

I thought I would ferry Eirika south in C9 but iirc most of the enemies there have 1-2 range so she wouldn't be able to counter-attack. WK Vanessa would probably solo that part, even though at 9/0 mine only has 7 str, so she'll have to take more turns to beat these guys, often at WTD. Not even sure if Eirika is the worse candidate to solo the south portion of the map.

[PKL]

You won't have enough offense at 1-2 range. Though 9 str (after promoting) IS pretty bad. But at least she will counter more enemies than Eirika will. Lute will probably not have the durability for a drop either. Robed, Dracoshielded Wyvern Nessie at least will have some semblance of durabiliity lol.

Edited July 8, 2013 by PKL

[charlie_]

if you don't get the whip now, you have to wait until the chapter 14 secret shop which is really dicey.

[Espinosa]

It seems that I can 6-turn the map if Eirika dodges Tirado's attacks on both PP and EP (she is OHKO'd...). I noticed drafters take anywhere up to 14 turns pursuing the Elysian Whip, and I wonder if the short-term benefits are worth the noticeable slowdown in this chapter. Don't have the Chest Key for it either. 'Short-term' because Vanessa stops isn't threatening much with 9 or so promoted strength. I think I'll let her grow then promote her together with Tana for the desert.

Lute, on the other hand, has been catching up and I begin to understand why Horace mentioned instapromoting her. But yeah, working on staff rank and levelling for more warp range are mutually exclusive tasks that the player must find the right connection for.

14 turns is probably unlikely even if I do go for the whip, but Vanessa does need 3 turns to break the wall and two more to reach the Chest (with keys of both kinds). So it's like 3-4 extra turns? Questionable payoff too. C9 will take long whatever decision I make, and the exact extent I find hard to estimate because I've only LTC'd it with a full team before (where it was still really damn challenging).