Serenes Forest Mafia Mafia 3 - NOW IT'S REIN TIME (Game over)

[Excellen Browning]

As for explaining rhetorics, I think we are talking about the same thing, but giving it different names, Helios. As your senior I should have been aware of that, I guess.

[Leornianwynn]

It feels to me like SB is not reading everything and that this has resulted in him misrepresenting things that I have said and Shinori's joke. I'm not sure if it's evidence of an anti-town alignment, but it's definitely anti-town in effect and because of that, SB is now on my suspect list.

[Leornianwynn]

Also, regarding associative reads:

I don't think associative reads without flips are that scummy as long as they are re-evaluated when new information comes out. Most reads in mafia are associative to some degree. If your read on someone changes after a flip then that was probably an associative read.

Also, the associative part of my read on Elieson is being drastically overstated. I had been calling Elie scummy for quite some time before I pointed out his defense of Bizz.

As for my read on Bizz, it wasn't as strong as the one on Elie because it was mainly due to associative stuff with Elie, him calling me a hypocrite, and the vote on SB, which given SB's recent behavior, I'm thinking isn't so scummy anymore. Also, the wagon on Bizz took off pretty fast which disturbs me a bit. So right now, I have a slight scum lean on Bizz.

My top scum reads right now are Elie and SB.

Bizz is slightly scummy. Shinori is kinda null. He needs to post more. A lot of nulls right now for that matter but I also have some strong town reads.

[BBM]

Excellen, mind explaining that vote more? And if Rein and Kirsche are both sheeping, why Kirsche over Rein? And why are you going from voting for Elie to voting someone voting for him?

You're also still not giving a proper explanation as to what the "rhetoric game" is, just saying "oh it's what you're talking about Helios", even though Helios ended up concluding that he didn't really find Elie all that scummy.

I don't really like how Wombat words #202. Why make the distinction between acting anti-town and being anti-town if you're going to scumread the person exhibiting what you consider as anti-town behaviour anyways? Feels like an attempt to distance yourself from your read there.

As for the bit about associative reads- if you change your read on someone after a flip, that's an associative read AFTER A FLIP. Associative reads before a flip are bad because while all scumhunting is educated guessing, you're involving a second layer of it. You're guessing that A is scum if your guess about B's alignment is correct. And it's scummy in addition for the reason you said- that they can be re-evaluated and taken back when new information comes out so very easily.

[riariadne]

I'll have more in a bit.

APPARENTLY a bit means "tomorrow". Fuck.

[Leornianwynn]

D1 reads in general are very mutable. There are no flips at the start of D1.

And any read that has to do with player interaction (i.e. most of the reads in mafia) is associative to some degree.

And also, if my reads on Bizz and Elie were largely associative, that would preclude them being used to line up mislynches, which is basically what Elie accused me of.

I think people might have a point if I were trying say something like "Player A and Player B have to be on opposite sides. If Player A flips town, Player B is scum." That kind of statement is super scummy unless there is really good evidence like flips and vote analysis. That kind of read would be very scummy right now. My accusations of defense are not. In fact, scum often like to defend townies to get towncred. One of the easiest ways to catch scum is to spot someone who defended a scummy townie way too hard.

[Leornianwynn]

And I often compare possible intent with likely effect in my reads, BBM. When in doubt I go with the latter over the former.

[scorri]

Ok, wow, yeah that Bizz wagon built up quickly. And since my original vote on him was for... well... nothing, I'mma do this.

##Unvote

As for where my vote is going next... Well, I've been rereading now for a bit and have a few ideas. Kinda. I'm mostly still really lost, but lets see if I can get what few thoughts I have out in a comprehensible state.

-Well, I don't like the way Wombat connected Elie and Bizz with scummieness, but apparently that's viewed as not as scummy from where he's from? I dunno. I still think that it's not a good thing to be doing because it can cause screwing of other people's reads if they were finding one scummy but not the other and then he comes along and is like "Oh, I think these two might be scum buddies" then they might start thinking that and then I dunno. Words.

-Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. THINGS! Shinori has an excellent point on Psych where he says that Shinori isn't catching scum at all. Scumslip? MAYBE!

-This caused me to take a closer look at Psych. And, well, there's not much there. What little is there is very sparse (yes, i know, pot meet kettle, etc.) but when you take a look at what little content there is, it's not very good. He calls what Shinori did an OMGUS, then when pointed out that it wasn't really one, he was just like "well, shinori's just bad at that then lol" and then he's voting Shinori for his posts being crap which seems pretty hypocritical to me, and I'm going to vote here for now.

##Vote:Psych

AND NOW I RETURN TO NOT EXISTING REREADING!

Gentle reminder to not get modkilled while I'm gone.

[scorri]

Oh, real quick, Elie, I realized one problem in all of your flirting with me. And that's that I'm not gay. No matter how much some people might think I am! I'M NOT! I SWEAR!

(ok, actually going back to rereading now)

[charlie_]

That was the lamest retraction of a vote I've ever seen

you should try explain it when you're not drunk, gay and tired

but if he's prims he'll never stop being gay

SB, why are you focusing only on my first 4 posts? My statement which everyone is calling hypocritical clearly referred to my posts up until Levity's post. if you interpret my statement correctly, your argument falls apart.

The same goes for the "wasting time" bit. It doesn't matter how little time was wasted. The fact remains that Elieson was implying that I was not looking out for town's interests by not going along with his plan when I (correctly) thought that his plan wouldn't end up doing anything. His plan didn't do anything except make it look like he was trying, which is typical of scum posts when they are waiting for things to develop.

Bleh, reading back I actually missed a few posts before that, although the only post that really had content in was the one I stopped before, so my point is still kind of valid. Maybe you could argue your post was better than Eli but the other 6(?) before then didn't add much, if anything.

Like I said earlier, it could've gotten results and nobody else was really doing anything much.

Captain America & kirsche 4 vote sheeping obvscum

Lynch lynch lynch

##unvote: elieson

##vote: kirsche

What's with all of these votes with no detail? Don't like kirsche's as well, along with Snike's earlier vote I pointed out.

This is the post I quoted when I told Elie his suggestions were wasting time. It clearly shows him trying to impy that not going along with his plan is scummy.

I basically told him it's not scummy to not want to do something that won't catch scum THAT IS TO SAY SOMETHING THAT WASTES TIME.

Now I actually know where to look, I can actually see the implication. Huh. Glad to have that cleared up finally.

Still disagree with this, but I don't think either of us are gonna budge on this so I'm just gonna drop it.

Now I've resolved some of my issues with Wombat, I feel a bit better about him. I also feel like a bunch of my issues with him might be from culture differences between forums and misunderstandings, so meh.

There are definitely better places for my vote right now I think. Snike and kirsche haven't impressed me at all, and neither have Nags, although there isn't really a lot to go off with a few of them.

##Unvote

##Vote: kirsche

That last post was horrible and he wasn't exactly impressing me beforehand.

It's sad that I could argue that Rein's contributed more than a quarter of the playlist. Doubt we'll be seeing content from Shin since he's already gone to bed. He's even older than me so he needs a good night's sleep I guess.

[BBM]

#WIFOM/meta, but I think Kirsche is too meticulous to post something as lazy as #194 as scum.

[Grace]

I don't see why I voted Bizz so that's says a lot about that vote.

this isn't good either. still don't like it.

his elie vote isn't exactly unfounded but there's not much behind it either. i'm keeping my vote here so the time being.

I don't think associative reads without flips are that scummy as long as they are re-evaluated when new information comes out. Most reads in mafia are associative to some degree. If your read on someone changes after a flip then that was probably an associative read.

generally when we talk about associative reads, we talk about specifically making a hard assumption that two people are scum to due interactions with each other (and potentially not much else), which without any sort of flip/info role, is a flawed logical assumption.

#WIFOM/meta, but I think Kirsche is too meticulous to post something as lazy as #194 as scum.

brb, smashing my head against (another) wall

bbm, you realize that WIFOM works the other way as well, right?

ALSO: This is the first time you even mention anything remotely related to kirsche in a read sense. Considering he's now becoming a wagon, I want your thoughts on it that aren't just a handwave as per the quote above.

[Grace]

i'm keeping my vote here for the time being.

i hate words

[BBM]

What, that he's too meticulous to post something like that as town? Not quite, people are more self-conscious as scum and therefore much more likely to spit out a post that is much more lazy and terrible than their regular level of posting as town than they are as scum.

As for all of Kirsche's posts, I didn't like his Bizz vote or the fact that he said he was jumping in on a town slapfight (SB vs Shinori) even though the post before had him say that he also disliked Shinori (just that he found Bizz worse). However, I didn't really find what he said about Elie to be bad (might be biased though). While I do think that Bizz's vote on SB was better than Shinori's, I do agree with Kirsche that Elie didn't really explain why that was so. Also I think the latest point ouweighs the Bizz stuff personally.

Also looking at that Elie post that Kirsche quotes again, I don't understand how pushing a lynch equates to misrepping at all. You can push a lynch as town too.

[Percivalé]

I guess if I wanted to be clearer, my argument that Wombat was being hypocritical in the first place was supposed to be attempt at content, since I don't like to stay in RVS too long either, but I can't say it wasn't a defense of Elie. (I used to have a bad habit of outing my town reads by taking my strongest town read and defending them no matter what, and getting mad when it looked like they were going to be lynched, but yeah.) It bothers me a bit that he's still stuck on that though tbh, he keeps mentioning it when he talks about his read on me.

Having said that I'm still not fond of an Elie/Shinori lynch today, but I'll admit there are better votes on the Elie wagon than the Shinori wagon.

Kinda hesitant about Kevin because even though his posts are lazy he sounds like he might mentally be in a bad place. I don't like his Elie vote though because it seems like a wagon hop.

[Grace]

BBM: you completely missed my point about WIFOM. it's entirely possible that he did something like that as scum to make us think he's town. i wasn't agreeing with you at all.

[Percivalé]

Thaaat being said I should probably take a look at the votals again because it seems like I've been missing a lot by never actually checking them

[BBM]

BBM: you completely missed my point about WIFOM. it's entirely possible that he did something like that as scum to make us think he's town. i wasn't agreeing with you at all.

I know you weren't agreeing with you; I just misunderstood the way in which you were disagreeing with me.

People don't actually do that, because very few people think the way I do wrt WIFOM. They wouldn't intentionally make a really terrible post to make the one person who thinks that way think they're town, if it makes all the other members of the town think they're scum.

[Leornianwynn]

generally when we talk about associative reads, we talk about specifically making a hard assumption that two people are scum to due interactions with each other (and potentially not much else), which without any sort of flip/info role, is a flawed logical assumption.

I wasn't making a hard assumption. I was pointing out what I thought was a likelihood. Just because I scum read someone doesn't mean I think there's no way he or she could be town.

[Leornianwynn]

I guess if I wanted to be clearer, my argument that Wombat was being hypocritical in the first place was supposed to be attempt at content, since I don't like to stay in RVS too long either, but I can't say it wasn't a defense of Elie. (I used to have a bad habit of outing my town reads by taking my strongest town read and defending them no matter what, and getting mad when it looked like they were going to be lynched, but yeah.) It bothers me a bit that he's still stuck on that though tbh, he keeps mentioning it when he talks about his read on me.

Having said that I'm still not fond of an Elie/Shinori lynch today, but I'll admit there are better votes on the Elie wagon than the Shinori wagon.

Kinda hesitant about Kevin because even though his posts are lazy he sounds like he might mentally be in a bad place. I don't like his Elie vote though because it seems like a wagon hop.

I don't like the bolded. Brb with a quote.

[Psych]

I feel like scorri's validation of bizz's wagon moving quickly is an attempt at throwing heat away from bizz, since it only had 3 votes and wasn't actually moving quickly at all. She then jumps to another wagon, one that's more likely to mislynch town, mine.

I mean i'm easier to get lynched than some others, even if i don't have many votes on me atm.

and yes scorri that is hypocritical for you so i am curious why you did it

##Unvote, Vote scorri

i'm also curious why bizz posted in #215 about wombat being a hypocrite but totally ignores scorri

honestly, leo just seems to love shit posting a bunch of rapid walls of text in a row hoping to make points in defense to things. i'm a bit concerned about his level of defensiveness vs offensiveness since he seems like he's just trying to save his hide and then turn any arguements on his attackers, like eli

It feels to me like SB is not reading everything and that this has resulted in him misrepresenting things that I have said and Shinori's joke. I'm not sure if it's evidence of an anti-town alignment, but it's definitely anti-town in effect and because of that, SB is now on my suspect list.

honestly this is just stupid here and i don't really know why A) you'd tell us this due to not getting a joke and b) why not getting a joke makes you scummy since i'm pretty sure everyone will at one point misinterpret things

i'm getting strong town reads from SB

[Leornianwynn]

Not sure about this Psych wagon (he has 3 votes, right? counting scorri's unvote). Elie, why are you voting Psych? Judging by how adamant you seem I assume there's a reason.

~Gut~ is giving me weird feeling about scorri and wombat. Wombat mostly because of the hypocrisy thing, scorri because lol gut. Also Elie's response to BBM kinda skirted around what he said which also makes me uncomfortable.

##Unvote

##Vote: Wombat

this might change soon idk

This is the post of Levity's that I first criticized for containing a possible chainsaw defense of Elie. What I didn't like about it is that Levity had spent the previous couple of his posts criticizing my case on Elie. Here he votes me based on the alleged hypocrisy with respect to Elie while at the same time calling a couple of Elie's actions into question.

If the reason Levity defended Elie was that he was a strong town read, then why does this post imply that Levity finds some of Elie's behavior questionable?

[scorri]

Psych: My vote on Bizz was an RVS vote. I feel no need to defend my unvote. It felt like the Bizz wagon was quickly built up and I felt no need to continue having my vote there. I may also feel like it was quicker than it was due to having just reread, but...

Then I voted you because of a possible scum slip that you still haven't explained really.

[Percivalé]

Elie wasn't a strong town read of mine at all though, I was just mentioning it. I kinda knew you'd take it the other way which is irritating, I don't really feel like bothering with it tbh.

@psych I'm a little behind in content today because I keep falling asleep, why do you think it'd weird that I ignored scorri when there are other people I've ignored today too? (wrt manix, etc)

I don't really feel the need to respond to every single thing immediately

[Leornianwynn]

Don't know what a shitpost is but if it's bad them I'm obviously not doing it :P

But in all seriousness, Psych, I don't get the thing you're saying about my defense:offense ratio as I started the game very offensively. I've been getting more defensive lately, but that's because I've been getting more accusations thrown at me lately.