Musical Chairs Mafia, Town Wins, the Mod Loses

[Shin]

Shin be a dear for us and tell us what your roles were during d-1 an d-2. (not today)

Double vanilla! Super tasty... but rather boring.

I've just spent the last thirty thousand years in a time warp reading D1 and 2. Things that are noteworthy

- RIP Da Colonel, you'll be frying chicken with the best of them.

And I guess a bunch of junk about mafia I guess;

I really didn't like Objection's hardlining of Refa, he really seemed to push to lynch our beloved white suited colonel. However that soon changed when it came to Darros. He didn't really have much to say about Darros, but I really don't get why he'd support a lynch that could have been avoidable as scum.

Strege was pretty all over the place, he seemed to think there were like 5 people in the scumteam, and his case on Darros was more about how people didn't interact with him than his actions themselves. Still, he pushed the case way before the lynch happened, which would make it a really bad move for scum.

Shinori/scorri are like super inactive, and I've got literally nothing to go by on them! May your united being post please!

Eli's rubbing me the wrong way a little, a lot of his early content is speculation about the set up, and his posts are pretty empty. His case on BBM is based upon things not feeling right and the fact BBM hasn't chased Strege for everything. He very quickly drops it. I don't really see any real opinions on people either. You never really explained your Darros vote either, smells like you were trying to separate yourself from him. I feel like you're trying to facilitate scum hunting rather than do it, potentially hoping people mislynch.

BBM is also kinda waffley, and voted Kay a lot... I don't really know but I'm less convinced he's town than Objection and Strege.

##Vote: Elieson

[BBM]

Strege, I'm aware my townread on you is based on actionspec and I give zero fucks. I didn't say that my Objection read hinged on Darros (I don't think I did anyways); all I said was that if Darros flipped scum Ninja I'd be much more sure that he was town. I don't know how I left myself a way out on Darros in 378, since I quantified him as one of the two scummiest players in the game. And what's scummy about 404? I asked Kirsche a question, because he stated a not-scum read on Kay, my top scumread, with little reasoning given at the time.

NNR, the OP has Kay listed as the dead Tracker instead of Refa.

[The Objection!]

Just a reminder:

-Consequently, this game is as bastard as you think it looks to be.

Which means that we can't take everything the mod says at face value.

[The Objection!]

Also, last night doctor and hooker should out their targets. And BPV should claim too, if there is one.

Just to be on the safe side.

[Strege]

Strege, I'm aware my townread on you is based on actionspec and I give zero fucks. I didn't say that my Objection read hinged on Darros (I don't think I did anyways); all I said was that if Darros flipped scum Ninja I'd be much more sure that he was town. I don't know how I left myself a way out on Darros in 378, since I quantified him as one of the two scummiest players in the game. And what's scummy about 404? I asked Kirsche a question, because he stated a not-scum read on Kay, my top scumread, with little reasoning given at the time.

NNR, the OP has Kay listed as the dead Tracker instead of Refa.

I'm sorry, I wrote some of my argument quite rudely. Your reasoning is what left you with outs. 404 is just a language thing -- the "or at least slightly suspicious" feels like trying to pull some support from kirsche.

Objection, I was doctor again yesterday and I targeted SB. No word from the mod yet if I was blocked or redirected, so the roleblocker can keep quiet until that is confirmed if they want. Also, I thought the bastard thing was in reference to the random aspects of the game, but I'm not 100% on that assumption.

[NekoRex]

Just a reminder:

Which means that we can't take everything the mod says at face value.

I meant that as more of a "You can see the setup, if you think that it's bastard, well then your loss for not signing up"

I haven't lied about the setup at all, otherwise it wouldn't be open, ya goofs.

Edited August 16, 2013 by NekoRex

[BBM]

NNR, does Hitman pierce hooks? And do kill abilities still get used up if they get blocked?

I really don't like Elie's Strege vote. Okay, you can sometime just sheep somebody else's case if you think it's good, but Elie has said literally nothing directly about Strege the entire game. Additionally, Kirsche's Strege case is a carry-on from D2, yet Elie didn't comment on it at all then. He chose to attack me and vote Darros over possibly getting killblocked from the hook. And he hasn't said what's happened about hid read on me either.

[Strege]

I got my D3 role PM, and I was not blocked or redirected to my knowledge. Roleblocker can go ahead and claim.

@Objection: Which players do you think are scummiest right now?

[Strege]

@Shin: I don't understand what you mean by saying that Objection didn't have much to say about Darros, yet is probably town because he supported his lynch. In what way did he support it? The only thing I can think that you mean by that is that Objection voted Darros when he didn't need to, but Objection was the fourth vote on Darros (the votals from that period are a tad confusing because Gregor and Darros are listed seperately) and SB and I had expressed suspicion of Darros. Also: what do you think BBM was waffling about?

[NekoRex]

NNR, does Hitman pierce hooks? And do kill abilities still get used up if they get blocked?

Pierce... hooks? Strongman only pierces protection like the Vest and Doc.

Roleblocked abilities will get used up as normal, and only info roles get a blocked result if they were hooked.

Edited August 16, 2013 by NekoRex

[BBM]

Bleh. Well, gotta rethink some stuff. The mafia didn't use the Jan last night, so they must have used the Ninja, meaning they actually did decide to use the Hitman N1? I guess that clears Objection and removes Prims/Shin and Strege off that list, but I'm still getting a gut townread off Strege. I'll have to pay more attention to those slots now I guess. Bother.

[Strege]

We don't know that scum used their Hitman N1. If you want to talk probabilities, that's one thing, but there are a four explanations for no kill N1:

--scum targeted Wallcrab (unlikely I suppose)
--scum hit town!BPV!Elie
--scum targeted town!Prims with a non-hitman kill (docced by town!Strege)
--Gregor took the kill wherever and was blocked by town!Objection

Based on that I don't think anyone is clear outside of SB.

[The Objection!]

Still expecting more from Shinori and Kay...

But yeah, not much I don't have that much reads atm. But one thing that stood out to me was:

Vanilla d2 here. Neko should retitle the thread to d3.

[meme]
I don't always sheep kirsche



But when I do it's when he's probably right
[/meme]

##Vote Strege

Kay is probably scum too

Spot the reason for the vote! But Objection did it with Darros...

Well, this is kinda different I guess.... The reasons in this one is purely sheep, sheep, and sheep. And that bit about Kay, what? why?

I wouldn't say that Elie's definitely scum but this calls for an explanation!

##Vote: Elieson

[The Objection!]

I wouldn't say that Elie's definitely scum yet but this calls for an explanation!

I think this is necessary.

[Shin]

@Shin: I don't understand what you mean by saying that Objection didn't have much to say about Darros, yet is probably town because he supported his lynch. In what way did he support it? The only thing I can think that you mean by that is that Objection voted Darros when he didn't need to, but Objection was the fourth vote on Darros (the votals from that period are a tad confusing because Gregor and Darros are listed seperately) and SB and I had expressed suspicion of Darros. Also: what do you think BBM was waffling about?

That's pretty much what I meant. He voted fourth out of six. If he really wanted to, he could have done stuff to redirect attention to somebody else, but it wasn't so late that he was voting just to get towncred. Since Darros flipped scum, it's unlikely Objection is unless he was really stupid and decided to help kill one of his teammates.

BBM went on a lot about other mafia games. As much as it's relevant, I never find it terribly helpful. Plus, his constant Kay voting bothered me. I'd rather prod an inactive than lynch one, although Kay being one of the night kills does confuse this somewhat.

[Zkirsche]

Also yo I was doc again yesterday and I docced SB. I considered other, less obvious options, but I couldn't narrow them down to one which the mafia might go for and the Gregor reread threw off my townreads, so I went with the obvious option again. I didn't get a role PM for D3 yet (crossing my fingers for another doc) and I don't even know if I was blocked or redirected (if I'm even given that kind of info), so the roleblocker can delay their claim if they suspect me at all.

Why do you sound so defensive? I don't think anyone would criticise you for choosing to protect our only clear.

Other than my waffling on Objection you haven't really explained this

Waffling is pretty bad by itself, you know. Aside from that your push on Refa obviously looks kinda worse now. I don't really understand #427, I want clarification because it looks weird and out of place as it is.

If that's the case then your biggest scumread would be Objection as per the following post:

I understand why you would point out that the objection thing is a nullread, but this seems very eager to get rid of my vote on you. Unnaturally eager, IMO. If we're assuming hitman D1 then hook is the only possibility (although I was thinking BPV was also a possibility at the time). I guess scum could choose to idle one of their roles but that seems like sub-optimal play FMPOV.

Still not convinced Kay is scum.

[BBM]

Hmm, I just noticed SB's quote of Darros from D1 about Elie/Objection and I think that could be a scum not wanting his buddy to get lynched just as much as wagon distancing.

[Elieson]

We should probably have a counterwagon to switch to if Gregor comes in and defends himself extremely well, or claims tracker which is provable. I would be okay with shifting to Kay, Refa, or Shinori (though I'm really not super inclined to lynch Shinori at the moment because he promised content). Bleh, I'd almost prefer Refa over Kay at this point because I think kirsche's defense is fine. How did we get this far and all my other reads are still lame.

Anyway, what would everyone else's choices be?

My entire read on Strege is probably built around this post, where he is like "c'mon guys, can we at least try to find another wagon other than Gregor's? Also, I don't like Kay but I don't like Refa more". His Refa/Kay is waffley as all heck, and even though he voted Gregor, I just find it scummy due to his attempts to prepare a wagon shift like "dude's gonna claim something probably, lets all have hands on deck to shift votes"

[BBM]

What is wrong with "I dislike both Refa and Kay but I dislike Refa more?" He explained why that was so.

Additionally, if Strege really was scumbuddies with Darros, he'd know that Darros couldn't claim Tracker or anything provable even if he got there, since he was sitting on a Vanilla chair.

[Strege]

That's pretty much what I meant. He voted fourth out of six. If he really wanted to, he could have done stuff to redirect attention to somebody else, but it wasn't so late that he was voting just to get towncred. Since Darros flipped scum, it's unlikely Objection is unless he was really stupid and decided to help kill one of his teammates.

BBM went on a lot about other mafia games. As much as it's relevant, I never find it terribly helpful. Plus, his constant Kay voting bothered me. I'd rather prod an inactive than lynch one, although Kay being one of the night kills does confuse this somewhat.

Kay is alive, just awaiting a sub.

Why do you sound so defensive? I don't think anyone would criticise you for choosing to protect our only clear.

Waffling is pretty bad by itself, you know. Aside from that your push on Refa obviously looks kinda worse now. I don't really understand #427, I want clarification because it looks weird and out of place as it is.

I understand why you would point out that the objection thing is a nullread, but this seems very eager to get rid of my vote on you. Unnaturally eager, IMO. If we're assuming hitman D1 then hook is the only possibility (although I was thinking BPV was also a possibility at the time). I guess scum could choose to idle one of their roles but that seems like sub-optimal play FMPOV.

Still not convinced Kay is scum.

I've never been doc so I don't remember what people don't like. I just did what I would want any even mildly suspicious person to do if they had a hooker or doc claim from the prior day -- claim first and explain their target. The mod issue took away the advantage of the "claim first" bit so I wanted to address that.

I seriously disagree with the waffling thing. I would like you to explain how me awkwardly defending Objection late D1 does scum!me any good, and why scum!Strege might continue to waffle after people said it was scummy, and why waffling on one player is worth a D3 lynch on a player who has pretty clear opinions about everyone else. wrt 427: you said your reasoning for suspecting Objection (or most of it anyway) came from Refa's 226, so I read it, and noticed bits that I wanted to question Refa about.

"If we're assuming hitman D1"; I don't see why we're assuming this. I was noting a discrepancy with your reads. You seem like you keep forgetting about Objection.

My entire read on Strege is probably built around this post, where he is like "c'mon guys, can we at least try to find another wagon other than Gregor's? Also, I don't like Kay but I don't like Refa more". His Refa/Kay is waffley as all heck, and even though he voted Gregor, I just find it scummy due to his attempts to prepare a wagon shift like "dude's gonna claim something probably, lets all have hands on deck to shift votes"

BBM cut me to explain the bit about tracker. Also, I don't feel like my read on Kay/Refa was waffly -- my case on Refa obviously looked strongest before he had a chance to respond to it, and then he did so my read settled down. I kept reading Kay and Refa and commenting on them, and by the end of the day it went to Refa above Kay. Also, notice how I never tried to shift the wagon onto Kay or change my opinion of Objection in order to shift the wagon onto him. I wanted a counterwagon because there was a slim chance that Gregor could have a provable role, and more importantly I wanted people to keep talking despite a foregone conclusion regarding the lynch. Also, you have stated nothing about Kay in the past so I don't understand why you think the scumteam is me/Gregor/Kay. I was the first person to mention Kay at all, and one of the first to build a case against Gregor.

[Elieson]

Tbh with the amount of town deaths and inactivity, a scumbuddy!Gregor could've claimed tracker in the heat of the situation and made it through alive what with like 1/2 of the living players being notorious offenders of AFKism.

And my read from Kay comes from seeing her online and not seeing her post, nor Having seen her offer a reason to not be playing. It's a nulltell i suppose but it's screaming scum to me, and I'm really pulling a lot from gut reads since the majority of my Gregor suspicion originated from a Gut read.

[Strege]

Tbh with the amount of town deaths and inactivity, a scumbuddy!Gregor could've claimed tracker in the heat of the situation and made it through alive what with like 1/2 of the living players being notorious offenders of AFKism.

And my read from Kay comes from seeing her online and not seeing her post, nor Having seen her offer a reason to not be playing. It's a nulltell i suppose but it's screaming scum to me, and I'm really pulling a lot from gut reads since the majority of my Gregor suspicion originated from a Gut read.

Realistically, that might have prolonged Gregor's life by like one phase. If I were his scumbuddy would that be worth tying myself to his claim?

Your suspicions of Gregor might have originated from a gutread but at least you provided some support for them (on D1 anyway). Kay's inactivity could be based on any number of things.

[Zkirsche]

I've never been doc so I don't remember what people don't like. I just did what I would want any even mildly suspicious person to do if they had a hooker or doc claim from the prior day -- claim first and explain their target. The mod issue took away the advantage of the "claim first" bit so I wanted to address that.

That entire paragraph is wasted space. You could've just said this:

yo I was doc again yesterday and I docced SB.

but then you follow up looking paranoid you're going to get lynched for it. I don't even know why not being told if you were redirected or blocked is a reason for the hooker to delay their claim any further than they already would have.

I would like you to explain how me awkwardly defending Objection late D1 does scum!me any good

Doesn't do you any good, but it's a common trait among scum to do.

who has pretty clear opinions about everyone else.

You contradicted yourself:

My reads are kind of all over the place atm

"If we're assuming hitman D1"; I don't see why we're assuming this.

Gregor was the strongman and he had used his 1 use (that's why it wasn't given to us when he flipped, because 1 shots aren't revealed only if they've been used).

was noting a discrepancy with your reads. You seem like you keep forgetting about Objection.

Anyway with Darros dead and being scum it's not unreasonable that Objection! hooked correctly. So my biggest read returns to Strege.

This is me addressing why you went above Objection, because I think he stopped the kill. Right now I'm pretty damn sure he stopped the kill as otherwise scum would have targetted bearclaw and reveal mechanics work much differently with scum than with town.

I was the first person to mention Kay at all, and one of the first to build a case against Gregor.

You were, but after that case you didn't even put him in your top 3 scum reads so it could just easily be a small distancing case gone wrong.

[Strege]

That entire paragraph is wasted space. You could've just said this:

but then you follow up looking paranoid you're going to get lynched for it. I don't even know why not being told if you were redirected or blocked is a reason for the hooker to delay their claim any further than they already would have.

--I don't read my claim as defensive and I don't know why you are. Explaining my target was /probably/ unnecessary but it strikes me as good practice to concentrate any potentially-relevant information in one place like that. The redirect/block thing is only relevant in regard to the block -- if I claimed a result that disagreed with the blocker for some reason than there would be a 1v1, and probably more plausibly if I was blocked then the blocker would be clear as long as I was town (immediately confirming him as town FMPOV).

Doesn't do you any good, but it's a common trait among scum to do.

--Town often defends lynch candidates they don't think are scum. Town can also waffle. Why am I scum?

You contradicted yourself:

--Fair; I'll straighten out my reads later today. My reads were significantly clearer late D1 and mid D2 though, which is when I was waffling on Objection the most.

Gregor was the strongman and he had used his 1 use (that's why it wasn't given to us when he flipped, because 1 shots aren't revealed only if they've been used).

--I didn't know this -- I'm going to double-check with NNR if you don't mind.

This is me addressing why you went above Objection, because I think he stopped the kill. Right now I'm pretty damn sure he stopped the kill as otherwise scum would have targetted bearclaw and reveal mechanics work much differently with scum than with town.

I guess we made differing assumptions about the flip, but I was wrong to say that you were forgetting about Objection.

You were, but after that case you didn't even put him in your top 3 scum reads so it could just easily be a small distancing case gone wrong.

Fine... I was hardly charitable in my read of him, though.

@NNR: I have two questions: If a mafia member has a one-shot that they haven't used, is it revealed upon their death? If a mafia member has a one-shot that they have used, is it revealed upon their death?

[Zkirsche]

--I don't read my claim as defensive and I don't know why you are. Explaining my target was /probably/ unnecessary but it strikes me as good practice to concentrate any potentially-relevant information in one place like that. The redirect/block thing is only relevant in regard to the block -- if I claimed a result that disagreed with the blocker for some reason than there would be a 1v1, and probably more plausibly if I was blocked then the blocker would be clear as long as I was town (immediately confirming him as town FMPOV).

I read it that way because you're putting way too much effort into it. This bit here is entirely unnecessary:

I considered other, less obvious options, but I couldn't narrow them down to one which the mafia might go for and the Gregor reread threw off my townreads, so I went with the obvious option again.

and the bit at the end just seems too... nice? Not sure how to word it, but it reads really off because it's like saying "it's ok to scumread me if you want...".

Town often defends lynch candidates they don't think are scum. Town can also waffle. Why am I scum?

You were waffling about a likely lynch candidate, distancing yourself from it as much as possible in preparation for the flip. There's a difference between that and going "This is scummy about so-so, but ehhh" before a wagon has formed.

My reads were significantly clearer late D1 and mid D2 though, which is when I was waffling on Objection the most.

They were? You were getting scum vibes from me but then the ISO came and you were like "oh wait" and did somethign similar with Refa, you were all over the place for a short while when it came to Kay, you voted Objection! despite him supposedly not being your biggest scum read and then Darros leapfrogs at least 3 people in your list of suspicions when you barely address him at all. That is not "clear", that is most definitely all over the place.

--I didn't know this -- I'm going to double-check with NNR if you don't mind.

I don't because it's just an assumption I made.

Fine... I was hardly charitable in my read of him, though.

That makes it worse because you didn't push him hard at all until there was a large wagon on him and even then you seemed regretful:

I hate helping this wagon grow as quickly as it is