PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

That's because you've been teambuilding for months. Try it with a team where everyone's running Sol/AT/Nos as Sorcs with no staffbots, a few of your stats uncapped, no tonics/All+2 etc, messy Rallies (multiples of some, and missing a few others) and maybe even a Paragon or two left on and you'll see where its reputation came from.

[Alastor15243]

That's because you've been teambuilding for months. Try it with a team where everyone's running Sol/AT/Nos as Sorcs with no staffbots, a few of your stats uncapped, no tonics/All+2 etc, messy Rallies (multiples of some, and missing a few others) and maybe even a Paragon or two left on and you'll see where its reputation came from.

Running nos defeats the whole "with braves" thing though, doesn't it? My main point is that once you max out your stats, putting brave weapons on everyone, even unforged ones like what I just did, turns the thing into a joke. Anyone who's taking the time out to prepare for Apotheosis would probably be more satisfied if they banned brave weapons.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Kamui vi Britannia]

Running nos defeats the whole "with braves" thing though, doesn't it? My main point is that once you max out your stats, putting brave weapons on everyone, even unforged ones like what I just did, turns the thing into a joke. Anyone who's taking the time out to prepare for Apotheosis would probably be more satisfied if they banned brave weapons.

I actually did leave Paragon on Noire instead of Bowfaire, but it turned out alright. Apotheosis is difficult, the problem is most of us have been preparing for it as well as receiving help in some way, whether word of mouth or through sites like this. I can't imagine what it would be like to face Apotheosis without any external help or resources at all.

Edited December 24, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Hunter Nightblood]

That's because you've been teambuilding for months. Try it with a team where everyone's running Sol/AT/Nos as Sorcs with no staffbots, a few of your stats uncapped, no tonics/All+2 etc, messy Rallies (multiples of some, and missing a few others) and maybe even a Paragon or two left on and you'll see where its reputation came from.

If AT is Armsthrift, wouldn't you be better off with a forged Aversa's Night, which has a much higher hit and might?

I actually did leave Paragon on Noire instead of Bowfaire, but it turned out alright. Apotheosis is difficult, the problem is most of us have been preparing for it as well as receiving help in some way, whether word of mouth or through sites like this. I can't imagine what it would be like to face Apotheosis without any external help or resources at all.

I tried Apotheosis Normal path with little preparation before hand (No Eugenics). Even with Limit Breaker, it still was difficult, especially part 3 (Longbows) and 5. Also, I used 6 units, so that didn't help either.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Hunter Nightblood

[Czar_Yoshi]

The whole point is that you'd be using a horribly unprepared team with no idea what Apo takes to beat. Of course there would be obvious improvements, but way back when people just tried to use what worked for maingame and got stomped.

[Kamui vi Britannia]

If AT is Armsthrift, wouldn't you be better off with a forged Aversa's Night, which has a much higher hit and might?

Aversa's Night is hard to get.

Also, do you mind giving my team a quick once-over Czar? Just wanted to confirm some of the stuff I did was alright before I follow through with the pairings.

Edited December 24, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Czar_Yoshi]

100% Dual Strike and Sumia can double Anna and thronies. All good.

100% Dual Strike and Laurent can double Anna and thronies. Went sorcerer with Laurent so that he could use Mire. Any advice on safely minimizing Laurent's HP for Vengeance? For Laurent's HP, put him in a lower Def class like Sage and have him take a hit unpaired so you don't get a DG, then don't use Fortify. Sound inconvenient? That's why I don't like VV.

Brady hits 75 speed, magical galepair. Should I go As+2>Aether on Cynthia? Aether outdamages Agg, let along All+2. Brady also needs a proc much more than All+2.

Thanks for the Berserker set guys. Might replace AT on Severa, but not sure. Severa breaks 75 speed. Looks good. You could switch AT and All+2 on both units if you wanted to- it'd cut your damage output by 2-6, but Avatar will be using weapons up to twice as fast as Severa.

Gerome doesn't get Hit+20 so I went with Hex+Anathema which is cool. General!Morgan is really nice and benefits from Hex+Anathema because of axe use. Credit for General Morgan goes to Czar_Yoshi. Looks good.

Kjelle hits 75 speed easily, as does Inigo with AS+2. Should Kjelle procstack Luna/Astra instead of AS+2? Don't know if I should make room for Luna on Inigo, any input? Yes, drop All+2 for procs on both of them.

Went Gaius!Kjelle over Gaius!Noire because I wanted to do something different than my last run. Should I replace AT on Noire with a proc? Yes, you'll get more damage out of Luna/Vengeance than you will out of Longbow -> Double Bow. And Owain will see much more use out of Agg than All+2.

I have the Rally/Staffbots taken care of so that's not an issue. Please let me know what you think and thanks for the help.

[Alastor15243]

Kjelle hits 75 speed easily, as does Inigo with AS+2. Should Kjelle procstack Luna/Astra instead of AS+2? Don't know if I should make room for Luna on Inigo, any input? Yes, drop All+2 for procs on both of them.

I would argue that since Inigo is in that setup his only 75 spd sniper, he should keep AS+2 and drop bowfaire instead. It's only a 3 damage difference and the advantage of being able to double the nightmare sniper from out of range of the dreaded luna+ brave bow attacks and anna while not getting in range of her spear outweighs the slight damage drop.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Ownagepuffs]

Anyone who's taking the time out to prepare for Apotheosis would probably be more satisfied if they banned brave weapons.

Or not using DLC skills. Aggressor is +10 Atk. LB is another +10, along with +10 of everything else. It's overkill in it's own right.

Braves make No DLC Apo less of a headache.

[Kamui vi Britannia]

Thanks Czar! I have implemented most all changes; I was using AS+2 as a filler almost everywhere to be honest. Switched it with Luna on Brady, dropped it for Astra on Kjelle (looking back on it she doesn't break any thresholds with it....I don't know why I wanted on her), dropped AT for Luna on Noire, and dropped AS+2 for Agg on Owain (can't believe I forgot Aggressor of all things). I put AT on Severa for Helswath since it will only be used by the lead, while MU does use weapons faster he will be carrying 5 brave axes with more in the convoy so unsure whether to switch or not. I want to put Luna on Inigo but I don't want to lose the ability to double Anna. Decisions, decisions.

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it.

I would argue that since Inigo is in that setup his only 75 spd sniper, he should keep AS+2 and drop bowfaire instead. It's only a 3 damage difference and the advantage of being able to double the nightmare sniper from out of range of the dreaded luna+ brave bow attacks and anna while not getting in range of her spear outweighs the slight damage drop.

It's only for Anna, for the NS I just go right up to him since he doesn't have counter. I could kill Anna with Sumia+Chrom though...does anybody know the damage calculation? Edited December 24, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Alastor15243]

It's only for Anna, for the NS I just go right up to him since he doesn't have counter. I could kill Anna with Sumia+Chrom though...does anybody know the damage calculation?

I've never engaged Anna at anything other than 3 range, can't help you there. In all honestly, I don't see how doing 1-2 less damage per attack is a huge deal compared to the ability to double one tricky enemy and a 2% higher luna activation rate (plus possibly depending on thresholds getting another 1% added to your DS rate)

Edited December 24, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Kamui vi Britannia]

I probably will drop Bowfaire for Luna, and keep AS+2. I am pretty sure Sumia can take an Aether but don't know if she can one-shot Anna.

Edited December 24, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Ownagepuffs]

The whole point is that you'd be using a horribly unprepared team with no idea what Apo takes to beat. Of course there would be obvious improvements, but way back when people just tried to use what worked for maingame and got stomped.

Oh yeah and this bears repeating. There were no known benchmarks when Apotheosis was first released. There are probably still players on Miiverse who have no idea how to take on the map. This is especially considering that Apotheosis was/is L+ difficulty and most players don't play that mode.

If I told my friends to beat apotheosis they would have a damn hard time. It doesn't make sense to write it off as a joke when we know the map like the back of our hands. It's the same as calling a test easy when you have the answer sheet.

[Kamui vi Britannia]

Just got challenged to do a first-gen only run of Normal Apotheosis using MaMU; LB, rallies, and Braves are allowed . The pairings I chose were:

Sumia x MU(+Mag, -Def)

Maribelle x Chrom

MU gets first pick of competent first-gen wives, so Chrom took Maribelle. I don't foresee any problems but still...

Don't know if I need any other pairs; if I were to use more what would be reccomended?

Edited December 24, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Alastor15243]

Oh yeah and this bears repeating. There were no known benchmarks when Apotheosis was first released. There are probably still players on Miiverse who have no idea how to take on the map. This is especially considering that Apotheosis was/is L+ difficulty and most players don't play that mode.

If I told my friends to beat apotheosis they would have a damn hard time. It doesn't make sense to write it off as a joke when we know the map like the back of our hands. It's the same as calling a test easy when you have the answer sheet.

Okay, so it's more about the strategy than optimization, I get that. I wasn't really knocking apotheosis, even if it sounded like that, what I meant was that I feel the atmosphere of this thread inadvertently gives people the impression that all of this preparation is towards a truly epic struggle that will still eat them alive several times, when in reality all of this preparation turns apotheosis from a challenge that chews rookies and spits them out into a cakewalk. I'm saying that if people want their meticulously optimized teams to actually face a challenge worthy of the effort they put into it, they need to do more than play no-holds-barred.

Just got challenged to do a first-gen only run of Normal Apotheosis using MaMU; LB, rallies, and Braves are allowed . It should be pretty easy but I wanted to be sure of the pairings I chose:

Sumia x MU(+Mag, -Def)

Maribelle x Chrom

Don't know if I need any other pairs; if I were to use more what would be reccomended?

The general recommendation is Sumia X Chrom and Cordelia X MU, that way you have two pairs of units that have all the necessary ingredients of proper 2nd-gen pairs: Galeforce, proc and (maybe for cordelia depending on class) a faire.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Kamui vi Britannia]

The general recommendation is Sumia X Chrom and Cordelia X MU, that way you have two pairs of units that have all the necessary ingredients of proper 2nd-gen pairs: Galeforce, proc and (maybe for cordelia depending on class) a faire.

But Cordelia has no procs other than...Sol (shudders violently), and no fairs other than Lance. Olivia has Astra and SF but she's the dancer so I can't marry her. I think I'll stick with what I have and see how it goes.

Also neglected I can't marry SpotPass characters (Emmeryn, etc.) otherwise I would have gone with Aversa.

Edited December 24, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Alastor15243]

But Cordelia has no procs other than...Sol (shudders violently), and no fairs other than Lance. Olivia has Astra and SF but she's the dancer so I can't marry her. I think I'll stick with what I have and see how it goes.

Cordelia has Sorcerer.

[Kamui vi Britannia]

I forgot Vengeance! I suppose it could work with Vengeance, but how am I even supposed to take damage? If I attack something I'm going to kill it, and I have no Vantage to wait till the EP to take damage...

[Alastor15243]

I forgot Vengeance! I suppose it could work with Vengeance, but how am I even supposed to take damage? If I attack something I'm going to kill it, and I have no Vantage to wait till the EP to take damage...

Vengance is really useful with brave weapons and a hair's breadth from useless without them. The general strategy is to get in the range of one or more enemies who cannot kill you in a worst case scenario where all of their attacks hit, and then have them attack you on their turn and pray that at least one doesn't get dual-guarded. You then start the next turn with a significant guaranteed damage boost.

Just trust me, again, DO NOT attempt this without brave weapons, it's an infuriating hassle with very limited benefit, you're much better off giving everyone luna in a no brave run. Without brave weapons, your units get hit WAY more often, necessitating the use of fortify to keep your team up and running, and that means that vengeance needs to continuously get set up and there will be many turns where it just doesn't give you any benefit because of unlucky dual guards.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

It's only for Anna, for the NS I just go right up to him since he doesn't have counter. I could kill Anna with Sumia+Chrom though...does anybody know the damage calculation?

Anna has 99 HP, 58 Def and 58 Res, Dragonskin but no PavGis.

Sumia's Atk: 42(base) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +5(TF) +3(pairup) +2(All+2) +2(tonic) +11(Celica's) =85

Chrom's Atk: 40(base) +1(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +10(Agg) +5(BF) +2(tonic) +18(B.Bow) =96

Damage: 13+19+19+13+19+19+13+19+19+13+19+19 =204. So yes, you'll paste her (without even needing to double, if you don't have any misses).

There are probably still players on Miiverse who have no idea how to take on the map.

Aka the majority of Awakening's playerbase. Most fans don't go online about the game, period.

Just got challenged to do a first-gen only run of Normal Apotheosis using MaMU; LB, rallies, and Braves are allowed . The pairings I chose were:

Sumia x MU(+Mag, -Def)

Maribelle x Chrom

MU gets first pick of competent first-gen wives, so Chrom took Maribelle. I don't foresee any problems but still...

Don't know if I need any other pairs; if I were to use more what would be reccomended?

You need at least 5 attacks per turn to not get squished by the turn limits on the last two waves, so you'll want more than that. Anyway, you've got several options.

Chrom x Sumia and Avatar x Cordelia is your best bet if you want to consolidate all your talent as close as possible, though it leaves you fairly tight for turns- you've got Olivia, but it's still kind of a bare minimum.

Avatar x Aversa leaves Cordelia open for another husband, if you want, which helps with turn pressure quite a bit. Stahl and Henry probably have her best support potential, Stahl as a Sniper/Paladin/GK and Henry as a Berserker.

If you do pair Chrom with someone other than Sumia (which he can easily do thanks to DS+, you saw how easily they beat Anna without Luna), then she becomes free too. Olivia is a slightly stronger option for him thanks to Astra, but leaving her free means you can get dances, and Maribelle isn't exactly a slouch, so either one works. For Sumia's alternate husbands, Henry works very well as a Berserker (thanks to his Hex/Anathema, Sumia could feasibly go GK), and Gaius can be a nice SF Hero if Sumia wants to stay magical.

And of course, any pair with GF in front and a Faire in the back will be plenty for mopping up mooks if you need more. You'll also definitely want to bring Cherche and Miriel (as Valkyries) as Staffbots, and Lissa to if you're not using her (dunno what your restrictions on Logbook units are, if you have any you'll need Rallybots- almost worth dropping Avatar as a combat unit and making him one).

Edited December 25, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Original Alear]

This is a simple question, and I think this is the best place to ask it. What's the deal with skill inheritance? For the most part, children characters inherit whatever the last "active" or equipped skill is from each of their parents, unless its one of the skills they would have no matter what. However, it seems like things are different with chrom. It seems like Cynthia, for example, will inherit aether from chrom even if he doesn't have it equipped. And I have seen morgan inherit rightful king from chrom even though chrom didnt even have that skill learned at that time. Are there any other examples? Aversa and walharts' unique skills, perhaps?

[Kamui vi Britannia]

This is a simple question, and I think this is the best place to ask it. What's the deal with skill inheritance? For the most part, children characters inherit whatever the last "active" or equipped skill is from each of their parents, unless its one of the skills they would have no matter what. However, it seems like things are different with chrom. It seems like Cynthia, for example, will inherit aether from chrom even if he doesn't have it equipped. And I have seen morgan inherit rightful king from chrom even though chrom didnt even have that skill learned at that time. Are there any other examples? Aversa and walharts' unique skills, perhaps?

Skill inheritance passes the last active skill from both parents, unless one of the parents is Chrom, Aversa, or Walhart. Chrom will always pass Aether to daughters and Rightful King to sons regardless of whether he knows them or not. Aversa and Walhart will always pass Shadowgift and Conquest respectively.

You need at least 5 attacks per turn to not get squished b the turn limits on the last two waves, so you'll want more than that. Anyway, you've got several options.

Chrom x Sumia and Avatar x Cordelia is your best bet if you want to consolidate all your talent as close as possible, though it leaves you fairly tight for turns- you've got Olivia, but it's still kind of a bare minimum.

Avatar x Aversa leaves Cordelia open for another husband, if you want, which helps with turn pressure quite a bit. Stahl and Henry probably have her best support potential, Stahl as a Sniper/Paladin/GK and Henry as a Berserker.

If you do pair Chrom with someone other than Sumia (which he can easily do thanks to DS+, you saw how easily they beat Anna without Luna), then she becomes free too. Olivia is a slightly stronger option for him thanks to Astra, but leaving her free means you can get dances, and Maribelle isn't exactly a slouch, so either one works. For Sumia's alternate husbands, Henry works very well as a Berserker (thanks to his Hex/Anathema, Sumia could feasibly go GK), and Gaius can be a nice SF Hero if Sumia wants to stay magical.

And of course, any pair with GF in front and a Faire in the back will be plenty for mopping up mooks if you need more. You'll also definitely want to bring Cherche and Miriel (as Valkyries) as Staffbots, and Lissa to if you're not using her (dunno what your restrictions on Logbook units are, if you have any you'll need Rallybots- almost worth dropping Avatar as a combat unit and making him one).

Those two pairings were just for the Normal Route. My friend wanted me to clear the normal and secret, so I figured I didn't need as many pairs for the normal route and was going to bring more pairs later. There are no restrictions on Logbook units but I can't use characters from the SpotPass chapters (Aversa, Walhart, etc.). My goal is to bring at least 4 attack pairs for the secret route. Based on your suggestions, here are my revised pairings.

Maribelle x Chrom

Cordelia(What class?) x Avatar(What asset flaw should I use?)

Sumia x Gaius

Lissa x ???(No Idea here)

Is it possible for me to swap Avatar to Sumia and give Stahl to Cordelia? I already started the save with the Avatar with +Mag/-Def and don't want to restart, but if Cordelia x Avatar is better I will do it anyway.

EDIT: Also, thanks for the damage calc on Anna. I get more hits out of Celica's Gale than Longbow so I will probably use Sumia to take her down rather than Inigo.

Edited December 25, 2014 by CloudJumper

[Original Alear]

Thanks dude. Now I no longer need to pair in fear.

[Kamui vi Britannia]

Thanks dude. Now I no longer need to pair in fear.

Yeah it's fine. I was pretty sure there was a Simple Question, Simple Answer thread somewhere but I think it went out of use.

[Ownagepuffs]

Okay, so it's more about the strategy than optimization, I get that. I wasn't really knocking apotheosis, even if it sounded like that, what I meant was that I feel the atmosphere of this thread inadvertently gives people the impression that all of this preparation is towards a truly epic struggle that will still eat them alive several times, when in reality all of this preparation turns apotheosis from a challenge that chews rookies and spits them out into a cakewalk. I'm saying that if people want their meticulously optimized teams to actually face a challenge worthy of the effort they put into it, they need to do more than play no-holds-barred.

We theorycraft in this thread. We tailor make every pairing for every situation. We have someone here who has built a full squad of 100% DS. This thread isn't meant to make Apo seem like an insurmountable mountain (aside for Airship, whose challenge is pretty extreme), we just like to kill shit dead. That's what min maxing is about.

That being said, the players in this thread do not represent the majority. Apotheosis is indeed a map that will eat you alive several times to a majority of the people playing Awakening.