Is it possible to make an Est that's a high tier character?

[Phoenix Wright]

I think the fundamental issue here is that none of us have a same definition of the very philosophical word "good". Before you guys continue on, we need to first accurately define the term "good" and how it relates to Sara and her questionable(?) est status. Now, do we define "good" as in Arby's slogan "it's good mood food" (which is traditionally defined as "shitty food that is only serviceable if you can't find a Wendy's"), or do we define it as compared to "gouda cheese"?

This is an extremely vital semantic disccusion necessary for the beneficial contributions of future posts.

is fe6 really your favorite? if so, we really do have different definitions of "good."

I think even dondon would call Sara worthless if she could only use Physic for the whole game chapters.

I think the start is bad considered in isolation--but the start is just so short it doesn't seem to matter. It's still bad though.

if she needs only 4 physics stave uses to be pretty good, i don't really see that as a bad start. but to each his own, i guess.

[Baldrick]

Isn't an Est supposed to be worse than physics at the start and better than simple warping after training?

I think you're overselling being a physic bot and underselling warping. You get a lot of units that can use Physic, your Warpers can fill in as emergency physicists, and there's not much demand for it. There is always demand for Warp, and building up staff rank quickly is difficult.

It is true that Sara's net return after training is small, but that is more than balanced out by the investment needed. Most Ests need 20+ levels (invariably all combat exp) to realise their potential. Sara needs 3 Elite-boosted levels and does not need 1 point of combat exp to realise her potential.

[General Banzai]

Or you are playing casual and don't need a 4th warp user (or really a 3rd, 2nd, maybe not even a 1st depending on how you do it) and don't need Sara anyway.

If you're playing Thracia casually you want someone who can use warp, if at the very least for Ch 22.

Multiple warp users makes recruiting Xavier easier too

[Chiki]

Not going to put words in his mouth, but I will say Rhys would go cry if he heard you talk that way about his only means of contribution.

I think it's important to distinguish between something that is very bad and very short and something that is very bad but very long.

Say you had to go through torture for 2 hours, and then 10 seconds. You'd obviously find the first one "worse" because it takes longer.

But it's also worth noting that the second one is bad too, even though it's very short. Regardless of the time it takes, it's still overall a bad thing as long as you can feel it, even though longer is worse.

Sara's start is nothing special and it is crappy, but it's so short that you barely even see it. I bet dondon would agree that if Sara were able to use Physic the entire game, she'd be useless. So a unit can still have a bad start if it is short.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Im pretty sure you only have like 3 viable Physic users at Sara's jointime, including herself. Maybe 4 when including Sleuf

Also when considering fatigue, Sara being able to use Physic is not all that bad. Its actually a welcome addition I guess?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Salesmaster MU

[Chiki]

Im pretty sure you only have like 3 viable Physic users at Sara's jointime, including herself. Maybe 4 when including Sleuf

Also when considering fatigue, Sara being able to use Physic is not all that bad. Its actually a welcome addition I guess?

You have Saphy, Linoan and Sleuf who can use Physic for sure, and Nanna and Tina if you train them (Tina just needs to use the Thief staff 5 times and then promote, and Nanna has a crapload of availability so it's not a problem for her; she needs to use the Heal 20 times and Relive 25 times). So that's 5 viable Physic users. Nanna and Tina won't be able to use Warp ever probably. That's not even counting Sages who come with D in staves like Asvel.

Do you really need more than 5 Physic users?

It's not like Warp where having 4 users instead of 3 is a huge difference.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Espinosa]

And what about the whole low HP / fatigue thing? How many Tonics can you reasonably get that let the key units stay in play?

[Chiki]

And what about the whole low HP / fatigue thing? How many Tonics can you reasonably get that let the key units stay in play?

Well, Sara can only use Physic 5 times before she gets fatigued, so it's not a very big deal. Level 1 promoted Nanna can use it 9 times before getting fatigued, and Tina can use it around 6-7 times as well. This isn't including the others either.

Oh yeah, I just realized that Sara has a bad start because she gets fatigued after her starting chapter! She won't even be usable in the next because she has the worst HP base in the game (Elite Physic gives 50 exp each, so she'd need to use it 6 times to not get fatigued, which she can't).

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Jedi]

Well, Sara can only use Physic 5 times before she gets fatigued, so it's not a very big deal. Level 1 promoted Nanna can use it 9 times before getting fatigued, and Tina can use it around 6-7 times as well. This isn't including the others either.

Oh yeah, I just realized that Sara has a bad start because she gets fatigued after her starting chapter! She won't even be usable in the next because she has the worst HP base in the game (Elite Physic gives 50 exp each, so she'd need to use it 6 times to not get fatigued, which she can't).

It's a bit moot considering you should have quite a few S Drinks at that point

Edited August 19, 2013 by Folgore Red II

[Chiki]

It's a bit moot considering you should have quite a few S Drinks at that point

And that's a counter to Espinosa's point--if you get quite a few S Drinks, then you don't even need Physic that much.

[Constable Reggie]

(Tina just needs to use the Thief staff 5 times and then promote, and Nanna has a crapload of availability so it's not a problem for her; she needs to use the Heal 20 times and Relive 25 times).

Where in the world are you getting relive

Also why would you waste a master steal on tina

I'm pretty sure Salesmaster is talking about Saphy, Linoan and Salem, and then also Sleuf if you went A route.

And that's a counter to Espinosa's point--if you get quite a few S Drinks, then you don't even need Physic that much.

This line of reasoning doesn't make any sense.

[Chiki]

This line of reasoning doesn't make any sense.

Not to you, but there's a very simple, rational explanation: if you get quite a few S Drinks, enough to use on your staff users throughout the game, then you'll have more staff users available for each chapter, so Physic will not be as special if staff users are available a lot thanks to having more S Drinks. Is that clear enough?

Where in the world are you getting relive

I just checked the shops and Relive does indeed not seem to be very common, but Nanna has great availability so it's not a stretch to assume that she can use Heal 70 times within around 10-11 chapters.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Chiki

[Constable Reggie]

Not to you, but there's a very simple, rational explanation: if you get quite a few S Drinks, enough to use on your staff users throughout the game, then you'll have more staff users available for each chapter, so Physic will not be as special if staff users are available a lot thanks to having more S Drinks. Is that clear enough?

a) this argument is still for the benefit of Sara, since she doesn't have to worry about fatigue, and

b) this still isn't an argument against Physic. If anything, it just means you have much more liberty with physic usage, since staff users are free to do other important stuff when needed (warping, combat, etc). In no way does having S drinks mean you don't need Physic that much (exact wording of your post)

I just checked the shops and Relive does indeed not seem to be very common, but Nanna has great availability so it's not a stretch to assume that she can use Heal 70 times within around 10-11 chapters.

I'd personally say that's a bit stretching it, but not completely unreasonable.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[dondon151]

that's a pretty big stretch... i don't even bother trying to raise nanna's staff rank. she's hopeless. in an SSS rank run, nanna only exists for ~151 turns, she can't heal for all of them, and she'll have to sit out some maps due to fatigue. pure LTC has even fewer turns because of no recruitment requirements. tina at least has a chance at getting high staff rank by endgame depending on how often she misses with the thief and unlock staves. in general for an SSS rank run, the player tries to rig a staff miss whenever possible for the free WEXP.

in an SSS rank run, S drink management is pretty crucial because you need a lot of them in the final chapters if you don't meticulously plan out how you're using staff users. otherwise, whatever.

Edited August 19, 2013 by dondon151

[Tamanoir]

Elf is based directly on Sara and is the worst ennemy of the game (Yeah Zwolf can also be bad, I guess).
You also needs her to go to 24x. Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion, but this comes greatly in her favor.

1. Prayer + Wrath is a bullshit crapshoot combo that does not work. FE5 is a game that is MASSIVELY biased to unit with high durability. Sara is the exact opposite of this. Why would I bet on 30% chance to survive to get a kill when literally everyone on the cast can survive 100% of the time AND get a kill?

We are talking about a game where the late game enemies can be compared to Base Stats Wendy here

2. Linoan has Resire

3. Characterization wise, FE5 do have a working archetype

Finn - Jeigan
2 FIghter
2 Lance Knight

Since I started with FE7, I consider Avoid Tank to be more usefull than normal Tanker (Def being the most useless stats of FE7, and probably FE8 too).

Also, once again : Elf. If she wasn't the most annoying ennemy to kill (and she had Resire to boot. Even if, obviously, what made her so horrible was herunavoidable Berserk Staff)

Elite Scroll + promotes into a mount plus lower caps gg, if you say EWAN is a good est certainly you can say the same of Miranda, being a bit lopsided in your arguments there considering you considered the Tower of Valni a good way to train a unit in a thread that is about tiers which relies on going fast and not wasting turns in a bonus stage. Yes I know not many people go B route in FE5 ltc but this is the same deal really.

Anyone in FE can be good in time but this isn't the discussion here, the discussion is "Can Ests be high tier"

I never said Ewan should be high tier. However, Ewan have a somewhat unique niche (Good Druid, since Knoll should never be used asd a combat unit. And contribute more as a Summoner/Staff bot anyway.)

Miranda starts many chapter after Olwen, and is far worse. She specializes on Fire,without a doubt the worse Magic element of the game. Olwen also have two unique weapons (The amazing Daim thunder, and Mage Tanking Holy Sword). Eyrios is more durable, and have a pretty good skill selection (You can also give him the Wrath Scroll for extra fun) (Didn't have played Route A yet, it's true).

Also, mounting in FE5 is less important than in other FEs, thanks to Warpskip, and the final chapter being entirely inside (and reastically, she won't see a lot of outdoor chapter before being promoted)

Anyway, Miranda is an Est, Tina may be, Sara isn't.

About Nino. It was some time ago, but she 4-5 KO this ennemy Monk in her starting Chapter. Already a bad start.

Then in 26X, there are these annoying Wyverns that absolutely destroy her, and a Paladin near the start of the chapter.

The only way to level up her is by turtling and chipping damage behind a tanky unit. (I did this more than once, that is as tedious as it seems, maybe even more so.

Every unit severely damage her, or downright kill her.

She can destroy all the ennemy (Or nearly all, because these ennemy Pirates or Wyvern Knight (and a WLord, if memory serves), should be handled separately.

To make her a competent unit, it would take at least 100 turns.

Sara would become good almost immediately as other explained. If she's an Est, then Sleuf is too (Judging by base stats, he starts worse in every way (+4 Hp, +1 Def, but pitifull Speed and no Prayer, Inferior Growth too.), Yes he have A Rank,, but so does Sara once promoted (And Promoting her is extra easy thanks to Elite).

So, why won't you consider Sleuf an Est then ? Sara will beats it in the long run, and already does at base.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

On Nanna, I admit even when I am playing EXTREMELY slowly on Thracia, its hard to give her A Rank

Usually I stick her with Elite Sword and give her Scrolls and make her a Tank

Now add in Lara, Pahn, and Lifis, and you get the most broken team ever

[Prims]

Now, do we define "good" as in Arby's slogan "it's good mood food" (which is traditionally defined as "shitty food that is only serviceable if you can't find a Wendy's")

stop

stop

You are a fucking piece of shit. Literally the worst poster I have ever seen on internet forum Serene's Forrest dot network. Do not fucking say that about Arby's ever again or I will come to your house and shove the Wendy's© Frosty signature frozen dairy dessert you crave so much down your fucking throat until you choke and die, you piece of trash. You wouldn't know "good mood food" if a group of Arby's Mozzarella Sticks punched you in the stomach like the worthless coward you are. Stop flaming the best fast food place God has ever blessed The United States of America with or I will have to report you to a Admin.

on topic: don't let the haters get to you, nino is objectively bad but i use her anyway bc she's cute =)

[Phoenix Wright]

arby's is over-priced and disgusting.

wendy's has spicy nuggets, goddammit.

[Constable Reggie]

Why was the arby's post deleted, it was totally on topic and merited serious discussion.

With that said, we now need to debate the semantic definition of "disgusting" before we can continue any beneficial debate.

[Chiki]

Why was the arby's post deleted, it was totally on topic and merited serious discussion.

With that said, we now need to debate the semantic definition of "disgusting" before we can continue any beneficial debate.

Seriously, why are you a philosophy major? It's clear you haven't learned anything in your classes and know jack shit about philosophy at all.

http://melbournephilosopher.blogspot.com/2005/04/philosophy-or-just-semantics.html

On the mailing list, someone brought up that I spend a lot of time discussing semantics, and being argumentative. My first response was: It's not just semantics, it's semantics!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_dispute

It is sometimes held that semantic disputes are not genuine disputes at all. But very often they are regarded as perfectly genuine, e.g., in philosophy.

http://skepchick.org/2013/04/semantics/

I was one of those dreaded students of philosophy. In fact, though I double-majored in English, I identified solely as a philosophy major whenever I could get away with it.

It also means admitting that you made some kind of mistake, which is hard for the vast majority of people. If the person in question is unable to do so, their declaration that ”it’s just semantics” often is intended to trivialize the point and end the argument. Their playing of the “semantics” card shouldn’t end the conversation, it should start one about meaning and word choice.

Philosophy is all about finding different senses about words in debates. I can even give you examples. One of the most well known philosophers in the 20th century, David Lewis distinguishes between two different senses of "breaking a law of nature" in "Are We Free to Break the Laws?" He claims that there's two ways to break laws: the "weak" sense in which you do something, such that, if you do it, a law is broken. And the "strong" sense in which you can break a law. So this might just be semantics to you, but it's very important to every philosopher out there.

I seriously suggest you consider leaving your major. That's what my professors would say to you, because they'd honestly feel embarrassed.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Chiki

[Constable Reggie]

I didn't realize being satirical meant an essay about me shaming the good name of the major I chose. On an internet forum about a niche video game series. Where we're talking about the questionable archetypal status of a video game character.

Watch out math majors, don't ever joke about 2+2 equalling fish! Hell hath rain fire and shame down upon thee if you joke about 2+2 equalling fish

Edited August 21, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Refa]

I didn't realize being satirical meant an essay about me shaming the good name of the major I chose. On an internet forum about a niche video game series. Where we're talking about the position of a video game character on a tier list.

Watch out math majors, don't ever joke about 2+2 equalling fish! Hell hath rain fire down upon thee if you joke about 2+2 equalling anything other than four

Everyone knows 2 + 2 = 100.

[Espinosa]

Philosophy and the academic study of philosophy have a connection comparable to that between sex and venereology.

[Constable Reggie]

@refa

Seriously, do you even math? It's clear you haven't learned anything in grade school and know jack shit about addition at all.

2+2=4

http://www.twoplustwo.com/

Links, damnit

I seriously suggest you quit whatever occupation you're in right now and go straight to the coal mines. That's what everyone would say about you, because honestly they'd feel embarrassed

Edited August 21, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Refa]

I seriously suggest you quit whatever occupation you're in right now and go straight to the coal mines. That's what everyone would say about you, because honestly they'd feel embarrassed

OK, but I'm cosigning you on as my ASSISTANT.

EDIT Also this post is totally on topic I sware

that's a pretty big stretch... i don't even bother trying to raise nanna's staff rank. she's hopeless. in an SSS rank run, nanna only exists for ~151 turns, she can't heal for all of them, and she'll have to sit out some maps due to fatigue.

Even when I play super slowly and spam staves with her, she barely gets to C staves by like, Tahra.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Refa